CHANGE
Obama demands it, even when paying for lunch.
(Barack Obama)
picture: dunno source, via our lol builder. lol caption: randyincv
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Cute.
I still like the “Asking for Crayons” one, but this is nice
which one…?
Mine involved crayons but this is alright.
Haha! Although I read these lolpages for at least an hour a day, I rarely actually laugh out loud. This one made me do just that. Me likes!
I wrote this LOL and the truly hilarious thing is that Barack Obama and his entourage came into American Dream Pizza in Corvallis Oregon where my daughter happens to work and had lunch there (Really!) Here’s a link to a photo of her shaking his hand. http://www.flickr.com/photos/barackobamadotcom/2351463796/sizes/o/Life can be strange at times lol
Doh! Left out a space!
Here’s the correct URL for Obama at American Dream Pizza in Corvallis Oregon:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/barackobamadotcom/2351463796/sizes/o/
Win.
I concur !
loves it! that is a man who is hungry – for change, and for a cheezburger.
For sweet potato pie, I understand
He likes chicken!
My boyfriend cooked him dinner once!
Buddhist monk goes to a hotdog stand and says ‘make me one with everything.’
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So the vendor says “That’ll be two fifty.” The monk hands him a five. The vendor hands the monk his hotdog, and the monk says, “Where’s my change?” The monk says, “Change comes from within.”
I think you biffed that one.
Can’t blame him, he’s getting all psyched to debate with the first person that throws the “s” word at the clearly centrist Obama.
Or how Socialism is “good”
Socialism sure seems to work for most first world countries.
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You know, there are three ways to handle the ridiculous “Obama is a socialist” allegations. You can ignore them, or you can say “But he’s a centrist!” Or you can do what I do, throw the bastards a curve ball, something they don’t expect, and say, “So what? Socialism is good!” And then the argument is about socialism itself, not whether Obama is a socialist, and that throws the idiots completely off track, because they are not used to people questioning their assumptions. Great fun, and it makes people think instead of just parroting back “Yes he is!” and “No he’s not!”
there’s always the guy that said this :
“What we think is fair, democratic, socialist, etc. is based on our worldview and usually an incomplete version of the facts. ”
He says we can all have ouw own definition of these things, nevermind wht the textbooks say.
Most people only see their worldview, they do not see the world. They pick and choose from the ‘facts’ they observe, only keeping the ones that support their assumptions. They are ‘packers.’ They pack information into a static map they have received from an external authority.
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Then there are ‘mappers’ who constantly update and change their internal map based on experience. They are not superior to packers though. Too many mappers destabilizes society. Too many packers and society stagnates.We need a balance.
Yes, I can see that. I told the guy that his assumption was true only to a point and that their are standard models, like the textbook versions, to hold the concepts up agianst. What does that make me?
*against
Sexy as hell in my book. Ooh, look at the brain on her, hot!
Sexier when I use the proper “there”, but we all have an off day. *sigh* Thanks, LOL.
You don’t have many
I don’t agree with your politics AT ALL, but you are one of the more intelligent and passionate posters here. I catch myself stalking you, Seth, DWM, ema, herb, Charlie, and a couple of others just to see what you’ve said 
I can deal with that, Just don’t boil the bunny. LOL
Thanks, I’m flattered. I try to read what you wrote too, even though there’s a good chance I won’t agree with it.
Me too! I stalk all of ya’all!!
Even if I just end up reading…
@ema–thanks too. I enjoy that things remain pretty civilized here, even when we disagree.
@froufrou. Whatever happened to the next installment of the lightsaber adventure?
WRiter’s block and a too heavy work schedule. I’ve been mulling the next segment over for the last couple of days
I’ve been meaning to ask you and ema……why the heck are you two up so late? I have an excuse (working late second shift), but what is your excuse????
I’m an imsomniac sometime, but I’m off to bed now I think. I’ll probably be on less over the weekend.
I had gone out to eat and just come back in and wanted to see what everyone was talking about!
I’m ususally always online checking auctions, etc.
*isn’t being stalked*
*sniffle*
Oh yes you are!
Thanks! I knew I could count on you!
I’d stalk you more, but we rarely seem to be on at the same time.
PK, where stalking is hawt, and Nazis bring about DWN’s wang.
Pretty much everyone who got in on this thread I stalk, even you Jane
Yeahz!!!
Thats good to hear Froofrou
*hides his binoculars*
I wish I could say the same….
AH HA!.. I was right.
Yeah, the VENDOR says, ‘change comes from within’ dammit.
The VENDOR says, “Change comes from within.”
[I'll send you my bill for proofreading services.]
I like this one, can have more like this?
Cute but waiting for crayons sounds cute too
I *love* waiting for crayons
He wants his change because black people don’t tip.
*smites racist with lightning hammer*
I didn’t write the caption.
You said black people don’t tip. That’s racist and untrue. You know who doesn’t tip? Rich people. Unless they are trying to impress other rich people. You don’t get rich giving away money!
I spent years tending bar and waiting tables, and, well, both groups fall into pretty much the same bell curve, actually. Except of course that the wealthy who tip well tend to tip really, really well.
My bar experience is big money on Goth night, crappy money on Go Go night.
Take that as you will..
Personally, I tend to tip a bit more than is custom anyway. Just because you know the tipee could use a bit extra. Unless service sucks… that’s always a big factor on tip calculation.
Yeah, me too. Twenty percent and up for decent service. I’ve worked as a waiter, dishwasher and short order cook. Of those jobs, I hated being a waiter the most, even more than being a dishwasher. Too much ass-kissing involved in being a waiter. That’s why I tip well.
I tip well when I can. I at least make sure they have enough for gas to get home. Unless they are dim, then they get nothing.
To continue the broad brush judging of groups, y’know who tips well? Gay men. Especially in groups.
Contrariwise, one of my gay co-workers once asked me, “You know the difference between a lesbian and a canoe? Canoes have been known to tip on occasion!”
Yeah, I know it’s unfair and untrue. I still laughed.
the gays always tipped me well cause you know, that gaydar thing..we just do that for each other.
not all gay guys tip well though, steroetypical gays (aka= the flamers/queens/whatnot)are like REALLY picky and REALLY demanding and if you’re not perfect—you’re f*cked.
Lezbians are like the middle class, hit and miss. I always got tipped well by them.
To continue the broad brush stroke of awesome gay jokes(lest you forget, I’m a boy lovin boy, but I ain’t PC about it, so don’t go jump down my throat…unless we’re in bed
) :
What do lesbians bring to the second date?
*The moving van.*
————-
What do gay guys bring to the second date?
*Who said anything about a second date?*
LMAO man. Though, as a woman loving man, I’m probably not allowed to laugh at these
I snorted soda up my nose on the “jumping down my throa” bit.
Classic!
Portland – TOTALLY allowed to laugh
Maxwell – glad I accomplished SOMETHING that day – no sales at work = lots of boredom/PK time
Perhaps they don’t tip much because they don’t know what a standard tip size is. Minimum wage where I am is above the poverty line, so tipping is not as needed even at the simplest of restaurants (although tipping is increasingly being encouraged).
But it’s really just a matter of finding out. It used to be 10% was given for average service and 15% for better service. Now 20% seems to be the norm.
I’m kind of an ass about tipping. I’ll tip 20% minimum for good service, more for great service, but if it’s a slow day at the restaurant and I have to ask you to refill my drink, then you will be digging for the quarter I leave you in the salsa dip.
haha! sounds like me! My boys use the three drink refill quota to determine the size of the tip.
At a bar or pub, I tip $1/drink. Otherwise, I tip 20% +/- for good service, 15% for mediocre, and if it takes forever to get service, I leave a short stack of nickels.
20%….wow…
The truth is, if waitstaff got a decent wage above minimum, there wouldn’t be a need for tipping. As mentioned by PiMan, in Australia the waitstaff get a decent wage (comparitively speaking) and there is no need to tip. Although, I have seen an increase lately in ‘tip jars’, but I never use those. I feel what’s the point in tipping someone for making me a coffee to go?
I hate it when people indicate the tip jar with some sort of gesture, as if I should feel bad that I haven’t put any of my spare change in. I’d like to give them a gesture in return
That will work well until you go back, and they’ve spat in your coffe so much you can taste it.
LOL. I’m too poor to be a regular at any restaraunt other than McDonald’s, and I do my best to be fair, but I hate it when people expect something for crappy service. The ‘gratuity is added for parties of 8 or more’ really cheeses me off because you KNOW you’re going to get crappy service. I wish I were rich enough to do what my husband’s old baseball coach did. He took a group of 15 high schoolers to a restaurant, set a $100 bill on the table, and said that the waitress could keep it if they never had to ask for refills. She got the tip.
I had a guy tell me once that there are three people you don’t mess with, because they have direct control over your life: You doctor, your pastor (priest), and your food service professional. Keeping that in mind, I tend to wait until after I get my food to complain
If I’m not tipping very well (or at all) for poor service I’ll usually write it on the credit slip I sign. I write what I normally tip (which is 20%) and then tell them that they received less and I’ll list the reasons why. I’ve always felt that if you just don’t tip well, they’ll write you off as a non tipping jerk and not realize what they did wrong. The teacher in me always wants to give a lesson. My hairstylist gets tipped REALLY well though, I will not mess around with my hair!
You’re a teacher?
@ Jane: I love the way you think!
@AC, yes I’m licensed but finding a job locally is hard. If I were willing to move out west I probably could, but I’d like to stay near family. That means all the local jobs have this weird system of family connections and alumni ties you have to get around before you can get hired (srsly, who cares if you went to elementary school there, that doesn’t mean you’re the best person to TEACH there). Right now I’m working as a temporary teacher for someone who is out of maternity leave. I’m hoping it’ll turn into something full time next year.
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@froofrou, thanks! This annoys my friends to no end though. They also make fun of my habit of finding out how much 20% is exactly by hand and the fact that I do it off the subtotal so I don’t tip on the tax. They just throw random money down and stare at me while I’m writing my tip novel.
“on” not “of” rather, that sort of changes the meaning.
…in bed.
The best tip I ever gave was when I had my teenage son get a haircut- it was really wild hair. Rather than put up with the sulking for days, I tipped the cute girl cutting hair next to him to oogle over him how cute he was after the haircut. Best $20 I ever spent- he didn’t lose the goofy look on his face for a week
that’s right. you just twisted it into a racism…which makes you…racist…and furthermore-not socially acceptable.
Call the Waaaaambulance !
clever comeback fail
When I was a delivering it was the blue color “Joe 6 Packs” that didn’t tip.
Blue color? Maybe they weren’t getting enough oxygen to tip well?
D’oh
Collar
Probably true when delivering pizza, but in the restaurants they (cue recording) fall pretty much into the same bell curve.
I can only think of one group that tends not to tip: Latinos. It’s so bad that my Mexican servers sometimes try to pass off the Latino guests to other servers! There’s no custom of tipping in Mexico, so I think it takes a while after they arrive in the US before they learn. As a manager, however, I *love* Latino families. I always know that when they come in, Mom and Dad will each have a couple drinks, the family will have appetizers, the kids will have Virgin Daiquiris, and everyone will share a couple desserts. Latinos know how to party!
All I heard in Mexico this summer was “Propina No Includida” ! (tip not included). One waiter chased after us in the parking lot to tell us he thought the tip wasn’t big enough !
No, they just don’t tip blatantly racist arseholes like yourself. Maybe you should seek a less people-oriented position, like dish-washer.
Yeah, glaring at them from across the room, sort of gives you away.
Whatever you do, don’t tell Mel Gibson that! It would break his heart.
I find black people try to tip me the most(I,m not aloud tips). I am in a military town though and that mite have more to do with it.
allowed
“might”
That woman who claims that a large black Obama supporter beat her up and carved a “B” for Barack on her face just because she had a McCain bumper sticker is destined to become a lol – I’m holding off on it until the facts come out though. The police certainly seem dubious of her report because of contradictions in her story and want her to take a polygraph. My main suspicions are that from the picture on the smoking gun it looks very neat and superficial for something supposedly carved onto someone’s face with a knife during a struggle.
That and it’s backwards.
That will be awesome.
Maybe “McCain Campaign Volunteers In Mirror Are Dumber Than They Appear”
(Click my name for the story)
Maybe she should have gone for an “O” for Obama instead, then it would be the same even looking in a mirror.
Did Mirrorman turn back up?
No, that is Ceefax. He does have a point. If you are going to cut yourself, do it right…
Yes, I know, I was referring to “McCain Campaign Volunteers In Mirror Are Dumber Than They Appear” I thought it aptly applied to our reflective nemesis.
Ah, well that would be a fail on my part then. X_X
Caffeine is not taking hold like it should and cold drink in cold office is cold. And I don’t drink coffee normally. Gah!!! *headdesk and shatters*
Where’s the pootbeer?
Ouch! What shattered? The desk or your head?
*sweeps up pieces of DWN, dumps them into bacca tube, begins a steady drip of Dazbog KGBlend coffee*
Studies show that caffeine only works on those who are addicted to it. It only gets rid of the withdrawal symptoms.
No, caffeine does little for the addicts except chase away withdrawal. I can drink a triple espresso and fall right asleep.
Awful inconvenient for Obama, therefore it must be false.
And the guy in London who was “shot” 3 times for wearing an Obama shirt- it was a frickin BB gun !!!!!
Well if her story is bogus it is bogus. As for the guy with the Obama shirt getting shot. If his story is bogus, it is bogus. No need to defend idiots on either side. Though I will admit being shot randomly with a BB gun would be annoying.
Aye, BB guns hurt. They can take your eye out and they can KILL CATS.
And there is the risk of losing an eye–does happen sometimes. Sad.
Even Michelle Malkin (the backup crazy lady in case Ann Coulter gets hit by a bus) is doubtful of this “crime.”
Speaking for myself, though, I have no problem with McCain partisans continuing to do themselves harm. There are several very lovely overpasses I can think of that would be perfect for a McCain’er to jump from, while claiming that Obama supporters pushed them…
And the lady that got beat with the stick off her own McCain sign in the subway!! Lovely people those Obama supporters.
Proof would be nice.
They only need belief, not proof. See my argument with cobrajoe about global warming as a reference. Also, to hell with anyone else’s proof.
Link attached to name.
Ummm, that’s a blog. Got a link for the actual news story?
Guess you missed where it said “The document from the District Attoreny is posted below”
No, I saw it but it was too smudged to make out anything of importance. I am not saying they made it up but I honestly was expecting some actual proof that was readable. I am sure that scanning technology isn’t that bad.
However, taking it into account as truth, it shows a man who assaulted somebody and should be arrested. Very simple.
Are you trying to insinuate that because I like Obama and not McCain that I will assault you or what exactly is your point besides point out how people are crazy?
It depends on the type of assault we’re talking about. It’s only assault if it’s non-consensual
It’s not raep if you yell surprise.
Surprise! BUTTSECKS!!!! LOL
The best thing you never knew you needed.
I can’t find any references to this except a bunch of cross-linked right wing bloggers. All the crime report proves is that *something* happened, without the details you’d like me to believe.
I wish someone would tell that to blah.
Why was she holding a sign in the subway? They probably just wanted her to stop taking up all the seats. Not to mention the idiocy of providing a weapon to potential muggers. Subway riding safety procautions people!
It is false.
Just got reported she made the whole thing up.
Click my name to see.
Police will be pressing charges, though they haven’t said what they are yet.
“Awful inconvenient for Obama, therefore it must be false.”
It’s false, therefore it must be false
PITTSBURGH (AP) — A McCain campaign volunteer made up a story of being robbed, pinned to the ground and having the letter “B” scratched on her face in a politically inspired attack, police said Friday.
Ashley Todd, 20-year-old college student from College Station, Texas, admitted Friday that the story was false and was being charged with making a false report to police, said Maurita Bryant, the assistant chief of the police department’s investigations division. Police doubted her story from the start, Bryant said.
“Police suspected all along that Todd might not be telling the truth, starting with the fact that the “B” was backward, Bryant said.”
LOL
Nice how her false police report indicated a 6’4″ black man as her assailant. A few decades ago there would have been lynchings by now. No black man in that town would have been safe.
This is very indicative of the type of mentality that the McCain campaign attracts.
All I can do is shake my head. *head shaking ensues*
A real report would have been fine. Crazy people are everywhere and she would have had my sympathy. Now she is the crazy instead…
So we have a beating from Obama’s side and a false police report from McCain’s side. Ugh, I hate elections.
Ashley Todd is and anagram fro Shoddy Tale.
Ha! Win!
The “victim” admits the story is false. Click my name for the story. Apparently she is mentally ill. Sad.
Well I guess that makes it ok. Please to show up and be shot with my bb gun, ok? Thxbai.
I smelled a fraud when the woman apparently refused medical treatment. Hello? Some imaginary big black guy supposedly carved something into your face and you don’t want to go to the hospital for examination and/or police photos? FAKE.
“What happened to the Democratic Party? Just a few generations ago, the party of Franklin Roosevelt went to bat for the little guy, the common man, the everyday Joe the plumber. Not anymore. Now, the wealthy elites who run the Democratic Party have declared war on working-class Americans while pretending to defend them against greedy and heartless Republicans. Those would be the same Republicans whose vice presidential nominee, Sarah Palin, doesn’t just talk about working-class people but actually embodies one and yet has been savaged by liberals. And those would be the same Republicans who have devised a tax plan that might just appeal to ‘Joe the Plumber’ Wurzelbacher, the Ohio resident who dared to confront Barack Obama over the unfairness of his tax plan. Obama acknowledged to Wurzelbacher that he intended, if elected president, to take the wealth of those making more than 250,000 per year and ‘spread it around’ to others making less. That wasn’t very smart, and the Obama campaign knows it. So they’re trying to change the subject by making Joe the Plumber the issue. They’re doing so, with a little help from their friends in the news media and labor unions, by digging into Joe’s background in search of something embarrassing. That will teach Joe to keep quiet. Let’s hope the country learns a lesson as well—about what the Democratic Party used to be and what it has become.” —San Diego Union Tribune
Just wanted to make this little comment…
How the hell does Sarah Palin embody the working class?
She’s the only candidate that is not a millionaire, for one thing.
Ha! Joe Biden a millionaire? Look it up. He’s one of America’s poorest senators.
Sorry, I don’t sleep with big oil. Still not convinced.
source please?
I would think that one would be obvious, without a source.
Someone please instruct Mukhtar on basics of asking for sources. Oh hell I’ll do it.
In the case of strange conspiracy theory, breaking news, or any claim that is not easily verified, asking for a source is always welcomed for posterity’s sake.
In the case of making a statement based off something that is well known about either candidate (ie. Todd Palin being an oil man and that Sarah, hopefully, does in fact sleep with him.) it is not required to ask for a source, common sense is enough.
Her husband works for big oil. She has stated as much. Hell, I would state a source but it has been up for weeks.
in bed..
With big oil…
Thats not what SHE said…
That does NOT mean she is in bed with them, that is only an opinion. There is no proof she is doing anything to benefit big oil because she will benefit through her husband (if he does in fact work for them). Everything she has done with big oil is a benefit to the state of and the people of Alaska.
Good, so you won’t be on the Ayers/Obama bandwagon then? Since that would be hypocrisy.
Well, as far as doing things that would benefit her husband, she failed to excude herself from the vote regarding the increase of proze money for the snomobile race. I forget the name of the race, but he had already won it twice and was participating again.
Yeah, I heard all about how she instituted a windfall profits tax to rob the oil barons and redistribute the wealth to Alaskans who didn’t earn it.
But Obama’s the socialist. Booga-booga-booga
No proof… aside from destroying ANWAR to drill for oil there, or the fact that Alaska is one of the bigger oil producing states in the country. She herself has even stated multiple times that she works with big oil companies since it is, such a big part of her state’s budget.
maybe you should back it up… In bed
http://money.cnn.com/2008/08/29/news/newsmakers/palin_oil.fortune/index.htm
And it’s not evil old Fox News to…
Well, there’s always this story… Never quite follows the rules, this one, Not the sort I want anywhere near the Oval Office.
They made over 180k last year, that’s rich enough for me!
How dare they ! Take it away from them- that’ll teach ‘em !!
Actually, you’re wrong that Palin isn’t a millionaire. Click on my name for the citation.
Sorry, she IS a millionaire.. sheesh.. I get to used to the negative sometimes.
I will even troll my own comment here. Why is having one of us such a good idea again? I thought we left the One of Us crap behind with Bush Jr?
Thanks, good article!
This “Joe the Plumber” obsession is fairly telling of the mindsets McCain is trying to reach. It’s like something out of a pre-schooler’s story book, where everyone is identified by first name, then occupation. See also, “Bob the Builder.” It’s no wonder voters are flocking to the candidate that treats them like adults.
Speaking of which, if Bob the Builder retired do you know what he would be called?
-
Bob
Mid-life crisis Bob the Builder would have a corvette…
Bob the Medicaid Queen?
No, no, no! “Bob” is a man with no arms and no legs in a swimming pool!
(Sorry. Bad taste.)
A woman with no arms or legs laying on a pile of money?
“Penny”
Oh, here we go! a man with no arms and legs hanging on a well? Art!
Oh FFS.. I meant wall.. sheesh!
A man with no arms and no legs rolling around in the leaves?
Russell.
A girl with a wooden leg? Peggy
A man with a spade on his head? Doug.
haha! And I thought I have heard them all..
A man with no dog?
Douglas.
Why does no one have limbs in the other jokes?
(That’s not a joke: it’s a question)
huh.. I guess to embellish the joke? I don’t really know why, that’s just the way I’ve always heard them.
I suppose it’s like the jokes about the Irish, really.
A one legged woman next to a wall? Eileen.
A one legged woman with a Japanese accent next to a wall? Irene.
A man with no arms and legs on the floor? Matt.
A woman with only one leg? Eileen.
Oops, you beat me.
with a leg?
Only during intense debates..
a) Which tax plan appeals to Joe the Plumber is his own opinion, but somebody better at math than I am sat down and figured it out, and (surprise!) Joe the Plumber actually pays more under the present Bush tax plan than he would under Obama’s. Can we therefore conclude that Bush is a socialist?
b) Sarah Palin’s latest shopping trip cost more than my actual *house* (I am not kidding!), and not only did *she* make more than I did last year, her *makeup artist* made more than I did last year. If she “embodies the working class”, it’s in Bizarro Land.
c) This is not specific to ohno’s post, but I’ve noticed people using the terms “liberal” and “Democrat” as though they were synonymous. Not to be overly picky, but I think Republican/Democrat is one dichotomy, and then, *separate from that*, the continuum from conservative to liberal.
And yet I’m spending $30 MILLION dollars on a half hour ad- instead of helping the poor ( or my half-brother in Africa)
Yeah, you also raised more than $600 million during your campaign. I think you can afford to spend a little on a half hour ad that will probably secure a few extra votes.
C) – I second that thought.
Real differences in the Party’s are gone. They’re both stacked with collectivists minded people instead of individualists (and morally bankrupt elitist at that)hense down the road we go to “Socialism/Communism/Facism” … how about basically a bad “ism”…
The same Palin who got $150K in clothing from the RNC last month? LOLOLOL WORKING CLASS!!!!
She didn’t pick them out, and she isn’t keeping them either.
Evidently, seeing as she was wearing a democrat scarf.
Epic fail.
Well, in this I would agree with you, the McCain campaign bought those for her, it wasn’t her decision. My only issue is not with Palin but the campaign. We’re supposed to see her as this tough figure fighting sexism but yet we have to hire a celebrity stylist and doll her up in expensive new clothes? What was wrong with her old clothes, I find it hard to believe she didn’t have any. What’s up with that McCain campaign?
Yea, they went a bit overboard there, but they will be donated to charity after the campaign so they may even sell for more than they bought them for and benefit someone else…
I’ll be gone a few days to Hawaii to go thru my grandmother’s stuff to destroy any evidence….uh… take care of her ailing white racist as…uh care for her.
Wow…
Just-…
Wow…
Have you no soul?…
I’m black ! Of course I’ve got soul !
Now, cough up what’s in your wallet- we need to spread the wealth around!
Actually if you ever bothered to study life from a sociological perspective you would realize that many of the things that ail us (including the OVERALL stability and economy of this nation) come from INCOME INEQUALITY. Go to college and take some classes before you troll.
That is an opinion you are entitled to have. But it’s not necessarily the truth.
Many scholars and statistics would disagree. If you would like some stats (with citations) about how the less fortunate may affect you, please feel free to ask. Hard statistical evidence can be hard to refute and I will be happy to provide some.
Sure, sounds interesting… You are saying having “the less fortunate” living in my community will affect me negatively?
The fact that our society creates a dichotomy that results in even having groups such as “haves” and “have-nots” is negative. If you don’t think keeping th e”less fortunate” away from money will eventually keep you away from money, you got another thing coming… I support socialism because empirical data shows that we are all interconnected. I don’t support Obama because he is a socialist, but as a socialist, he will get us closer than McCain. As for some date, just give me a second here and I will dig some up.
data* I just cannot type worth the life of me tonight.
Ok, no hurry. It seems to me that the dichotomy of haves and have-nots is a natural occurence… None of us are born deserving of anything really except what we work for or what others, like family and friends, are willing to give us. How does a society create the dichotomy and how does it keep you away from money?
Money is power, wouldn’t you agree? The question is, why do we still believe in the American dream? You can have a single mother working three jobs still believing that “if i work hard enough I will make it.” The honest answer is that money buys influence. The wealthiest have their money, and they would like to keep it. The ideals of the wealthy buy power (if you disagree, ask yourself why you can’t be in charge of political ads for whichever campaign you support). It is a natural occurence in our society because one power has been decided, those in power work to maintain their power (the status quo). The problem is that people may think that hard work can get them a piece of the pie, but because ealth and power are unevenly distributed from the get-go, it’s not likely. Think of it this way. One mountain climber has a grappling hook, all sorts of harnesses, and all the gear one would need for the sport. The other has just a pair of gloves. Maybe with a one in a million chance the guy with gloves will be on par with the other guy. But how likely is it?
I’ve attached an article from NYT that says there was a rise in millionaire families in 2006. (It may have changed now because of the drop in the stock market but that is temporary I hope) I don’t believe that wealth is out of anyones reach and we don’t all have to be millionaires either. I don’t think it’s necessarily hard work but information that will get you a peice of the pie. That’s available to everyone who looks for it. Anyway, we have a lot of social programs now and I don’t see anything wrong with it if someone needs some help every now and then but I don’t see it as a government function to ensure everyone is equal.
There is an increasing number of wealthy people but the number of poor people is also increasing. The middle class is being polarized and people within either move into an upper quintile or a lower one. Discrepancies in income and wealth can result in higher crime, political instability, and inefficient work. I won’t go into a full explanation on the culture of poverty but I will point out that if we keep people down long enough and they realize how unfair things are, eventually they will either stop working OR worse. Plus, I do agree that there are SOME chances at social mobility, but at this point there is still much work to be done. Society is inherently unfair and it is becoming increasingly difficult for people in the lower brackets to make it in the world.
You bring up some good points, especially the one about the higher crime, political instability, etc. This is what initially interested me in your post. But, I wonder if the real problem is not with the lack of wealth but a lack of support and information? Wealth is a relative thing and I think we can all point out examples of people that are very poor by some standards and yet very happy and content and consider themselves wealthy as well as people who have everything and yet are so unhappy and unfulfilled… Why is it that poor Asian immigrants can come to this country and do very well? Could it have to do with the support structure of their communities? Why can’t we do that for everyone somehow? So everyone can feel that the American dream is a possibility for them too?
You also bring up good points but the thing is that wealth and power can lead to support and information. If people do not have a lot at their disposal, it is hard to find good information (remember that power can influence information). Support structures can be helpful but socialism provides a support structure. It is also not a black and white issue (hell, we are part socialist). The other thing I will remind you of is the idea of “thats the exception, not the rule.” For every one of those successful immigrants how many are left behind? As far as community ideology iI would suggest looking into the idea of a “culture of poverty”. A short summary is that because poverty is inherited just as wealth is, eventually it saps the life and will out of people. It creates a cycle that will require the government or society as a whole to break. It’s an interesting (though not universally agreed upon) theory. By the way, thank you for being civil in the discussion, I notice that a lot of the debates on this website get way too personal way too easily.
Oh, you’re welcome! Thank you too. I know we have to have some socialism in a country but I also believe we have to fight against it taking over too much freedom. And you are right, poverty is inherited because it is a state of mind more than an economic condition. A state of mind can be changed but it does take effort. If the state of mind stays the same, then no amount of help or money will be able to help. Someone who believes they are poor and dissadvantaged will always create that in their lives.
Society is inherently unbalanced though, so these already disheartened people don’t have the same shot at the top as say I did. They are born into poor neighborhoods with (statistically) less supportive parents and they go to gerenally less effective schools which can make a HUGE difference (I blame schools and how society shaped our school system for a lot, I am a teacher after all). There are always people who will fail and those who will succeed, but unless the government does something to close the gap (especially on education), things will slide into turmoil.
Ema, socialism and freedom are far from mutually exclusive. Do you really feel less free having the fire department ready when you need it, or less free having public schools available to all, or are you restricted by the public roads you drive on?
Being poor may be a state of mind for some, but it’s way overgeneralizing to say that’s the main problem. I’m pretty hard up right no, but I am well aware of the FACT that I have a lot more to offer society. It is very classist to say people don’t want to better themselves because of a mindset, supposedly.
Jamlayfa was saying their are less and less OPPORTUNITIES for people, not that their mindset is to stay poor. There are a lot of people like me, college graduates, etc, working retail or food service, etc, because job opportunities at the level they should be at, simply don’t exist in a lot of regions.
@minerva – What I am talking about by less freedom is that as the government takes over more and more they will take over more and more of our ability to chose. I don’t like the way the government handles things, especially when they get bloated and innefficient and there is no competition. I have already conceded that we need some socialism, I kind of like the idea Seth had of less federal socialism and more local socialism. I think local communities can do more for the poor than the feds. I don’t know how to argue against what you say you are seeing as less opportunities, I know we are going through a rough dip in the economy but I don’t see it as something that will be permanent. I know you will find something worthy of your talents soon. Out of curiosity, how do you see an Obama administration directly affecting your situation?
@jamlaya “I blame schools and how society shaped our school system for a lot” – I tend to agree with you!! But who is handling our next generations education? They are doing a poor job of it now and handing them more money to continue doing the same does not make sense…
@ ema. I am realistic. I don’t expect miracles under Obama. I do think that some of the things he plans to do about closing the gap betweene have/have not may make an impact overall, and hence will improve the situation in my local area, which has never really recovered from the recession after 9/11. The things I think will most help are the tax incentives and other types of funding into green research for energy. We have to get away from internal combustion, it’s a 19th century technology. Developing new technologies first will help America take the lead again on the world market. This can create many jobs, but to make sure they are American jobs, we have to help companies keep them here with either tax breaks for doing so, penalties for taking them offshore, or a combination thereof. These are things Obama proposes. I am listing things in terms on my region to provide examples, though I think it applies to more areas. Here, we had technology based manufacturing (Kodak, Xerox, Bausch & Lomb) providing the backbone of the economy for many years. We have technical colleges like RIT and University of Rochester, as well as several other private and state schools. As the technologies were replaced, these companies laid off more than 40,000 workers over the last 20 years. We still have the colleges, but the companies can’t support the workforce they once did, as digital technologies are less labor intensive. We have talent coming out of our colleges, but we have to have something to offer graduates to stay. We have entrepreneurs (e.g. Tom Golisano, who started Paychex) and college graduates with technical skills. There’s a good chance some of Obama’s programs will add that last piece to the puzzle, increasing the number of opportunities for all. I am hopeful, for the first time in a long time, but will take each day as it comes.
The education system is really, really broken
Has been for years. I think the first place to start fixing the problem is by paying the teachers a wage that is consistant with the responsibility.
Yes, I know education needs reform. Our primary and high schools don’t really measure up to our colleges, and there is also the issue of affordable college for more people. Obama also has been talking about doing that, and is another reason I support him. We were just talking some about that the other day.
As a teacher I could never EVER EVER EVER in good conscience support MccCain, why? He supports No Child Left Behind. As if our school system wasnt’ decaying quickly enough, No Child Left Behind has delivered a critical hit to our school system.
@eddie. Definitely a big step in the right direction, but I also think there ought to be teacher reassessments every few years instead of giving them automatic tenure when they reach a certain length of time. That way, it weeds out the ones who only show up for the paycheck, and the ones who may care, but just aren’t up to the task. It’s too important to our future to ignore anymore.
I agree, I just forgot to add that part..
Is there any way we can get PK to cause this guy to change his name? I’ll be big about it: anyone using the names of real figures should change their handles. It’s not clever, and their comments do nothing to further our discussions. Otherwise, I’ll just start an alternate account “Grampy McSame” and keep making posts about raping vietnamese women, or some other stupid, offensive crap.
I’ve seen lot’s of Pailins on here.
I feel that if we all band together and ignore them, they’ll stop. There would be no incentive for them to continue if they aren’t getting us to respond to them. And before anyone freaks out, I’m including who ever posts under Sarah Palin or John McCain’s name too.
Agreed. Any real historical or current events figure then. Fictional characters will be placed to a vote.
Ummmm, but we’re not going to enact a ban against names that come from song lyrics are we? That would be awkward for me.
Wait what? Aw sh*t no!
lowest…impersonator…ever…
Give it up McCain, everyone knows it’s you. And stop robo-calling my house, you wrinkled old tumor.
Trolls on this site are fail. Just for shits and giggles I will debate in the case of socialism using only sociology (not even common human decency or morality)
OMG!
Dude, with the camera angle, he totally looks like barney fife from the Andy Griffith show!
Barney Fife for president!