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what!? first!? NO WAY!
Wishful thinking. Never gonna happen. Democrats are just republicans with different colours on their neckties.
Testify, Brother Lucky…
Amen. AMEN.
Say it as much as you like, it still won’t be true.
Agreed. Sometimes they wear the same color ties.
Thank you!!
LOVE, its right here.
Or it’s Obama’s old friends before he pardons them…..
Or the bush admin when he pardons them…
Hmm, but Gonzales and Cheney have already been indicted and will be arraigned today. Guess you were wrong again Lucky!
Nope. Democrats are educated people. Republicans are trained monkeys.
As much as I’d love to agree with you, we have a few chimps of our own.
LOL–Bush appointing black guys? Well, perhaps. At least they’re not women.
Nice rho!
Colin Powell?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but, if a woman, Colin is pretty homely.
I’ve bedded worse…
That’s not something I’d admit…
I left you wide open to come back at me with Condi Rice—Maaaaan!
BTW, My preemptive retort: “Double Token.” Wow–I didn’t have to hire that other’n.
I left *it* wide open…
Condi’s HOT! She’s a SILF!
Condi’s not THAT bad…not that good either.
Beat me to it.
Bush is not overtly racist. He is no more likely to pardon to an innocent white man on death row, than to pardon an innocent black man. He appoints fundamentalists without regard to race, gender or qualifications, as long as they are willing to sign the loyalty oath.
Did “The Texecutioner” ever pardon anyone on death row? I know he didn’t spare many, if any. During his tenure as governor, executions exceeded 150. One source indicates that to be a national record. I would almost say it was a good thing he didn’t complete his second term as governor, but we all know what happened there…
So?
Most of those executions were presided over by then Lt Governor Perry. Bush went off to campaign and Perry went on a tear. that’s why we eleceted him again. Most of us here in TX (aside from that little bit of California that was imported and called Austin) are proud of our record.
but while we are bagging on Bush lets not forget how many witnesses against the Clintons dissapeared or died before they could testify about Whitewater.
Ah, what it is to be proud of killing people… heart warming….
Because loving and protecting murderers, rapists, and child molesters is so commendable.
Yes, it is. Love the sinner, not the sin, dumbass. And I’m just calling you ‘dumbass’ out of love. Point two, a lot of those people were innocent. Just based on statistics, if you execute 150 people, you have executed several innocents. By keeping people around, you keep alive the possibility of them being exonerated. In your rush towards revenge, you have become what you hate: a murderer. Yes, I mean you. If you support capital punishment, and even one innocent is killed, you personally are no better than a murderer.
Ah… what’s 10%? Don’t sweat teh small stuff.
Actually, at best, I would be a conspirator not a murderer. Which is worse or better based solely on perspective. However, I am rather disturbed by Doubts proclamation of being proud to be the state with the highest rate of false imprisoned and wrongfully slain inmates…
I am all for personal responsibility but I do believe we need to get it right if we are going to do it.
Fact: The Houston Crime lab was/is under investigation fro sloppy technique, and evidence handling, and was, SHUT DOWN for a period of time because of these violations. Fact: 87% (last I knew- this may have changed since I ran screaming from TX 2 years ago) of the death penalty cases were processed through this corrupt and incompetent lab.
I actually have changed my mind about the death penalty- some pp need to be dead, not part of society (Hitler, the leaders of Sudan…), but only when the EVIDENCE is valid, accurate and irrefutable- In states with COMPETENT labs, the rate of INNOCENT pp on death row (meaning they did not commit the crime they were put on death row for- not that they committed no crime), is 20-50%. I do not need to love rapists, murderers, or child molestoers to say this is messed up..moron.
Oh my YESSSS! I had forgotten all about that today. I lived in Houston when all of that was going on: Worst Crime Lab EVARRRRR!
There should be a CSI Houston to the tune of Yakkity Sax.
ROFL!!
And Wang, the other other other other meat that goes in your mouth.
It is better than M&Ms, melts in your mouth and your hands!!!
Ew it melts? I hope you have a special sponge to pick it all back up again.
I think it grows back each night. Regeneration Wang!
I’m not swearing to it, but I believe Bush presided over 152 executions himself. I have read that, if Texas were a country, it would rank #5 in executions. Click my name for an interesting article.
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FTR, unlike you, I’m a Texan who enjoys “that little bit of California…called Austin.” If you Google “Bush executions,” you will find a plethora of alarming accounts of Bush’s record in Texas. His decisions were backed up by shaky legal briefs from—you guessed it—Alberto “Gonzo” Gonzales. It seems to have been a foregone conclusion that executions were to be carried out, though Bush occasionally stopped giggling long enough to say he was carefully considering the cases. (*wink, wink*)
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I tried unsuccessfully to find one article in particular, which someone on PK linked a short while ago. It’s an account of Bush imagining the pleas of Karla Faye Tucker, the first woman to be executed in Texas in over 100 years: ” ‘Please,’ Bush whimpers, his lips pursed in mock desperation, ‘don’t kill me.’ ” This flip and callous display alarmed his interviewer, Tucker Carlson, who is not particularly left of center, you might say.
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I’m not against the death penalty, as long as the person has gotten a fair hearing. Unfortunately, according to The Innocence Project, “Texas is home to more verified wrongful convictions than any other state in the union.” That’s only alarming if you’re into fairness, especially in life-and-death considerations.
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I can’t find a single instance in which any of the sentences put before Bush were commuted. I Googled “Bush commutations” and got tired of sifting through articles about Scooter Libby.
Ah but we know that TX is the ‘Kill em all and let God sort them out’ State…
Few innocents, who cares, they’re in the arms o’ JESUS!!!(PRAISE HIM!) not
As I’ve said before, some of us remember Timothy Evans… but that doesn’t account for much amongst the bloodthirsty…
What about those guilty murderers that get off on technicalities in the legal system and kill more innocents before they are caught again? Legal system is not perfect.
What about them? If their trial had been done right FIRST time, then ‘technicalities’ wouldn’t be an issue, now would it?
So,how many innocent lives are acceptable collateral damage?
1, 10, 50, 100? You want to choose?
Fantastic. So, by your logic, no one should ever be sentenced to any form of punishment, because ever after the verdict, there’s still that possibility that the jury and judge were wrong. Why stop with the death penalty? Just go on and give everyone the benefit of the doubt!
/clap
Bravo, bravo.
no… if you sentence someone to life, and they’re exonerated, you can let them go.
You kill them, well, you apologise to the family of the person YOU killed in an act of vengeance gone wrong…
But I don’t expect that sort of nuance would make much odds to your bloodthirsty, reptillian, brain, would it…
…you cretin…
Yes, because I LOVE giving my tax dollars to make a comfortable life for convicted violent offenders. Why don’t you just willingly donate the money to support them? You want murderers to have a second chance at murdering, so jump feet first into the cause. It’s easy, isn’t it?
And those of us that are all about personal accountability are somehow bloodthirsty. Wow, you really are a liberal; you can take any one statement and turn it into something totally different.
Moron.
Personal accountablity – having someone else kill people for you…
How very noble…
So how many innocents a year do you want to furnish what is clearly ugly blood lust on your part? Hmmm?
And you really are an imbecile…
Yes, because they’re somehow killing “for” me. How, I’ll never know, but since you implied it, it must be the TRUTH!
I’m part of the vast right-wing conspiracy that wants to take away all your rights. Like, your right to kill, for instance. OMG I’M SO EVIL!
Seriously, are you retarded? Because I’ll back off of the insults if so. Wouldn’t want to be making fun of those less fortunate, you know.
Actually, Personal Accountability-Having a person pay for their actions equal to the damage done if possible. Shortbus is not accountable as he is not the one pulling the switch, flicking the needles, etc. He is not stating that he is qualified to make that decision. That decision is in the hand of lawmakers, lawyers, judges, and a group of people too stupid to escape Jury Duty. I accept that there is flaws in the system but the punishment isn’t the problem, it is the process. That in mind, I already stated that I believe that capital punishment should be used only in the instance where evidence is irrefutable. Also, being a murderer does not automatically get you a capital punishment. It is in the hands of the judge to issue that decree.
Your accountability equation is flawed and you are making me defend Shortbus, a crime which should be punishable by death.
You give MORE of your tax dollars to execute someone than to house them for the rest of their natural born days. Those extra tax dollars of yours (and mine) line the pockets of attorneys.
(mine above is @ short bus)
Bingo. That’s just why I lean against capital punishment: life in prison is cheaper, and easier to remedy in case of a wrongful conviction.
For those of you afraid of financing a “comfortable life” in prison, I invite you to try it for a while. Please.
LOL Short bus is getting angry… seems his meds are overdue…
They’d best get them to him beofre he starts hurting people
the answer the under medicated on keeps avoiding is how many innocent people can be put to death as an acceptable number?
and @DWN if the retard votes it in, he’s accountable…
He certainly gets off on it…
Thanks rhorho, I was wondering about costs. But, I do think prison life should be “bare bones” existance, especially for voilent murderers, rapists and child molesters.
Come on Fes, shortbus is keeping you on your toes here, he is coming up with some good points you have to acknowledge that even if you don’t agree with him.
the ultra secure lockdowns are best for that. 23 hours lock down, nothing flammable, nothing sharp, no TV (glass), the bed cemented into the floor and smooth walls with rounded corners. Single cell occupancy.
If one is going to be the human version of nuclear waste, one may as well be contained as such.
actually, he’s not made a point worth addressing. He’s assuming ‘no death penalty’ means ‘eligible for parole’ which is specious…
So, when the venom spitting fool does something more than straw man points, I’ll stop mocking him and his tiny generative apparatus…
I can actually agree with you on that one, Fester. If we’re going to keep them alive *shudder*, let’s make it as uncomfortable as possible. And remove the option to sue the state for being uncomfortable, as long as it isn’t abuse. No daily beatings, in other words, but don’t screw with the guards or you will be put on ‘suicide watch’ and not allowed to sleep for more than 30 minutes at the time.
I’ve always been wishy-washy about capital punishment because of the whole ‘what if’ arguement. I do think if there is conclusive DNA evidence and witnesses then the death penalty should seriously be considered. However, no matter how cushy or not cushy life in prison is, they shouldn’t get a free ride on tax payers dollars. They should have to earn everything they get. You don’t work, you don’t eat.
Ever had one of your friends or family murdered ? I worked for two years in the Texas prisons- those guys have it made ! The have it much better off than even soldiers as far as living conditions. Color TVs, working out all day and the ability to file endless lawsuits if they think they didn’t get enough pancakes that morning. I say hurray for Death Row- and you can bet your ass that these killers are terrified of death row.
Too bad we still don’t have “Ol Sparky” the electric chair. Now we have you execute them “Painlessly”. Personally, I’d like to see them executed in the same way they killed their victim.
Pansies !! Too bad you don’t have the same concern for their victims !
@froofrou After 20 Jan, sleep deprivation will *again* be considered torture. Otherwise, I agree with bare bones, except that priviledges earned for good behavior have been shown to work. And just to keep my leftie-cred going, rehabilitation, job skill development, GED classes, etc. have also been proven winners.
*sigh* @ Jan 20.
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I’m all for rehabilitation, but if you rape a woman or a child, they need to throw you into GP with ‘Baby Raper’ tattooed to your forehead and let the criminals solve it themselves.
@ema You’ve known Unc longer than I have, yet you still try talk him down? Could we go over the definition of insanity again?
@froofrou I think all male sexual felons should be offered castration + intensive therapy program in exchange for time off their sentences.
Minataur. If that’s you’re opinion, then that’s just dandy, since you’re a professional
And to the ones who are definitely guilty, I don’t disagree,
although your old testament view is perhaps quaint. However, how many people who WEREN’T guilty have you slid the needle in on in your little annexe of hell?
How do the family of a victim feel to know that, not only was the person who offed their loved one not the one dead, but that he’s been out there for 20 years and no one is looking for him now? Hmm? I’d be pretty pissed to know that you’d sold me the wrong guy… The victims don’t just deserve just ANYONE punished for the crime, but the right guy. You off the wrong one, tell me how justice is served…
@Rho
Castration with psychotherapy doesn’t work. Rape is a crime of violence, anger, inadquacy and control, not sex. They tried it in the Scandics (where the level of rape is pretty low to begin with) and it just led to about the same level of recidivism as the US…
Ya know, I am a bit rusty in my latin this morning but I do believe there is a term for a fallacy in debates where a person is making an argument because a policy can’t enacted perfectly everytime…
Also, tell me how it is the prison guard’s fault for the wrong guy being offed. I do believe you should ask that question of lawyers and judges, not the people just doing their job without a say in the first place.
@rhorho – awww! Fes doesn’t scare me any! Sticks and stones… right? Anyway I suspect he’s a sweetie and doesn’t let on out of stubborness, kind of like Seth.
True, rape isn’t about sex just happens to involve sex which can break a few people’s brains in here.
Rape isn’t about sex, but it is about domination, control, and humiliation, all of which should be offered to the perpetrator in the form of actual castration. Still too nice for a baby raper though.
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I can’t even begin to figure out the best way to deal with a rapist. Prison doesn’t seem to work, and under current laws there is no death penalty (which is too severe anyway, even under Biblical law)………I don’t know. It just pisses me off so bad that some dipstick with a control complex takes it out on innocent women and children, and then all they have to do is serve a few years in prison and they’re out to do it again.
DWM, you’re saying that there is an acceptable error rate for the death penalty?
as to the rest… if one defends the position, then I expect
one would enact it ones self… including the people who hadn’t done it…
‘Just doing your job’ hasn’t been much of a defence for anything down the years… why does the culpability end with the people you list?
Someone voted to enact this…
So, you want to defend them YOU tell me… what’s acceptable error?
Dammit! I thought “remove the will and the way, and presto-change-o.”
…which is why such cases are styled The State of Texas vs. Baby Killer/Axe Murderer
Ah yes, for about about the ninth time, I am having to explain my stance. I don’t find a margin of error acceptable as I know you can get definitive evidence of guilt on cases. I have stated my feelings on the legal processes over and over and over again.
I don’t find the rate of incarceration for innocent people in prison for 5 years acceptable, let alone Life imprisonment. You are saying that is okay because we can always go, My Bad, and then move on.
None of it is acceptable but will happen no matter what. You are asking me to measure a faceless innocent man against a faceless serial killer/serial rapist, etc. The innocent man is worth himself plus family and friends. The serial killer/rapist is worth himself, plus victims, plus family and friends of victims.
I don’t find it acceptable that any innocent man, woman, transgendered, child, etc etc should die.
I also don’t find it acceptable that we suffer a murderer or rapist to live.
I lack an answer that will satisfy you as I believe that certain people deserve to die. Not because of something they can’t help but as consequence to actions taken. Nothing to do with Old Testament or anything of the sort. It is simply reaction matching the action.
So while we are asking for justification, I ask you, why should we let serial killers and rapists live?
No idea why monsters should live… but while ever there’s an error rate I don’t see how we can say we can kill them with a fully clear conscience. Once they’re no longer a threat to anyone other than other scumbags, what’s the point? Justice or Revenge? If it’s revenge, then the descision should be left to the family, since they alone have the right to revenge, it’s not a matter for State or 12 good man and true. If it’s justice, then prove it’s justice. To me, you stick them away and leave them in the most Darwinian environment on the planet, since then there’s a back out plan if we find that they didn’t do it.
Have you noticed that the crime has gone from murder to serial killing and rape to try and make killing them more palatable?
Honestly, I don’t know why we are bothering with humane deaths when we deny people the choice to die in hospitals. Justice is taking what they have taken. If we are going to disagree on that, then I don’t think we can really resolve that disagreement.
“I don’t know why we are bothering with humane deaths when we deny people the choice to die in hospitals.”
Indeed… there’s been a case where the CPS is investigating some parents inthe UK for taking their son (who wanted to die) to a Swiss Clinic where it’s ‘legal’ to let him die… If he’d just been murdered abroad the UK filth wouldn’t be interested, but since it was ‘assisted suicide’ the beak is all over them.
Sometimes a coup de grace is the kindest thing.
as to the rest… I think agree to differ is probably wise. After all it still comes down to the idea that since the system is imperfect collateral damage is to be ‘expected’… and then we’re to semantics as to whether
‘expected’ means ‘ok’ or ‘acceptable’ and then we’ve just gone in a big lazy circle. Most of the noise I’ve heard is ‘vengeance’, not ‘justice’
Good though I will state that one man’s justice is just another vengeance. I find your word choice in sticking somebody in the most Darwinian place on the planet cuz we can go My Bad is just as flawed as any punishment I can come up with since a lot of damage can be done and they can still die or worse in prison.
Then again, that is my filter that some forms of life are just as bad or worse than death.
I have to agree with the you don’t work, you don’t eat arguement above. It irritated me (and still does to some degree), that pp that had committed, or liekly committed crimes (if innocent, well we all work on the outside- everyone works!), It irritated me that prisoner inmates got cable TV (I did not and still do not have Cable, and I have a great job now- I just have school loans to pay off), “free” education, and a gym (which I have to pay for every month for myslef)I am not saying that they should NOT have those things- but get out there and start cleaning up the road sides like in the past- humiliating? too bad- work work work- I do, and have since I detasseled corn at 12 yr old- everybody works. And if you are innocent, you can get recompense when that is shown- but you shoudl not be dead if any possibility of your innocence exists…
Was it just me, or did anyone else find the guy calling himself “Short Bus” calling someone else retarded a little ironic? Sorry–totally not PC, but, I found it a little funny.
Cretin is a medical condition. The gentleman in question is just an idiot.
Miss-nested comment. Sorry all…
In this post, the words “ever,” “any,” and “ever after” exaggerate/contort the argument already presented. If you materially change your opponent’s argument, you’re not arguing against what s/he has actually said, so your counterargument against your own exaggeration/contortion does not work outside of itself. If I haven’t explained it well, or you would like to learn more, simply Google “strawman fallacy.”
Yea, I’m really on the fence with the death penalty, except for the Banking execs taking bailout money…
OK, that’s funny…
*mwah* Thank you–I needed a happy!
@ema – I’m with you! Banking execs who take bailout money and then use it for bonuses instead of lending to folks to buy cars or invest in their small business – they deserve a special place in hell.
I would say AMEN to that!
Click my name for information on death penalty costs. You may be surprised.
You’re right. Kenneth Allen McDuff comes to mind. He was on death row for a triple homicide. His sentence was commuted when the death penalty was taken out of federal control, then reinstated on a state-by-state basis. Somehow, KAM was released, and eventually wound up on another killing spree. I don’t remember how many more people were killed, but remember there was a young lady in a car wash, a convenience store clerk, and another one, at least. His murders took place along I-35, and, while he was at large, I lived 1/10 mile off that highway, across from a forested, undeveloped 20-acre area. The three-person parole board never came up with an answer as to how they could have released such a person.
and I-35 is nearly as much of a mecca for serial killers as Washington State…
I question that “nearly” business. The day is young…
Hey! I thought you lived in England?
I do live in England. Born and bred in fact. One of my (many) interests is Criminolgy, specifically relating to serial crime against strangers… To not know about I-35 would be like a geneticist not knowing Watson, Crick and Wilkins…
Truly a wonder to behold, that Interstate…all the blood splatters and chalk outlines. It’s just like the O K Corral, with a fast lane.
Watson, Crick, Wilkins and Franklin! Don’t leave out Roslind, just because she died pre-Nobel!
You’re sitting in prison on the computer, aren’t you Uncle Fester ?
LOL you wish… No, I’m a free man with an entirely legal, but pretty chequered past…
You not gone to beat someone in lock up to feel a complete man today?
Just as likely as you going with name calling to feel your manliness.
Ah the liberal speaks… got a problem asshole?
I think DWN clearly identified that he has a problem, and what it is. From what I can tell, the problem is that you are an unrepentant ass who lashes out at strangers who don’t agree with you. Now, I myself am an unrepentant ass, and I know how satisfying it can be to insult idiot. But look at your motivations, what are you trying to accomplish? If you are trying to put yourself up by tearing others down, then you are on the right track. If you are trying to communicate ideas and change hearts and minds, you are failing miserably. So, why are you here?
my own amusement, truth be told… why are you here?
I’m here for intelligent debate and a sense of community. You’ve admitted that you are here for your amusement, nothing wrong with that. But how amusing will it be when everyone starts to ignore everything you say? At that point, you may as well just type up your opinions and post them on your fridge.
Ignore him, please. No one wants to hear your b*tching.
Bob…go back to your bunker until you can spell Bob backwards for a mega-minute.
Someone once said that you should judge a society on the basis of how it treats it’s sick, on that the US fails because of the number of people (including soon retired GM workers) have little access to healthcare.
I would argue that you should also just society on whether it is happy for innocent people to be killed (by state sanction) in the name of “justice”. Again the US fails.
One innocent life taken in the name of justice is one too many.
Your quote comes to mind: The death of one man is a tragedy. The death of millions is a statistic.
Maybe I should back off. This stuff gets to me. I was just reading that Gonzo’s legal brief in one case omitted the mitigating circumstance that the killer was mentally impaired.
Due to my excessive youth *waits for lightning bolt*, I had to Google Timothy Evans, a grieving father wrongly executed for the death of his daughter. Generously assuming Texas at the 7% national wrongful conviction average, 11 of the people executed under Bush were not guilty. Considering other accounts of sleeping attorneys and underfunding in general for defense of the poor, the number is likely much higher. Bush even vetoed a bill allowing for better funding for the defense of poor people accused of capital crimes. So, in the best light, Bush wrongfully rubber stamped the executions of 11 people in six years, but the number is likely to be around 20.
As froofrou would say, “Don’t come to Texas and commit a crime.”
Yee. Haw.
Aww, but froufrou is ‘lovely,’ I have been told this numerous times. No, she’s merely popular, with some monstrous views.
Where’s the roll eyes smiley? and if they were innocent, I think it should be ‘Don’t come to TX, since they may just lynch you’
But some views =/= the sum total of a person. You’ve been told that also. We love her in spite of her flaws, not because of them.
So Ted Bundy had ‘flaws’… I see….
Froufrou is not Ted Bundy, and the comparison is unnecessary. You make light of how horrible people like him are by saying things like that.
He at least didn’t get other people to kill innocents for him…
But it was more the idea of people getting off on the death of others…
Call it ‘reductio ad absurdum’, or Swiftian impishness but I begin to fail to see the difference when people loudly crow about the death of ANY human…
I think you are simply being ridiculous. Here is some helpful advice, that your parents should have given you a long time ago
1) You are not God. What you have to say is not the Gospel.
2) Telling people to consider another viewpoint, while endlessly slamming their own, and then resorting to personal attacks, is called hypocrisy.
3) IF someone disagrees with you, you don’t have to call them a dumbass and accuse them of being a slave to a propaganda machine
I somehow doubt that Froofrou ordered the deaths of anybody. She made a statement that was generalized, something you do a lot when you speak to any of us here. Her view is flawed and overly generalized but she isn’t in a position to act on any of it so I don’t fret it.
I think a lot of people should die and I could go into excruciating detail over it, so by all means, start calling me a monster too. I just don’t really care so I don’t know how fun it will be to follow me around like a lost puppy and decree my humanity or lack thereof.
You’re a very educated man, which is good for you, but your decision to constantly follow a person around and call them a monster just seems… Beneath you so I am really rather taken aback by how a person’s words on the internet bother you so much that you stick to this behavior.
If she breaks down and gasps out an apology between sobs or simply leaves, will that make you feel more like a man? Is that what it takes to make you feel better about yourself? You can call her a monster til your fingers and dick fall off but it doesn’t make it so. She has an opinion and no power with which to enact it. I thought you of all people would respect a person’s domain in their mind as long as they don’t enact it upon others.
I don’t see any action on her part but I see gobs of pestering from you. Now I guess I will wait to see what particular bits of Latin and/or philisophical arguments you will conjure up on your defense or what insults you will hurl, etc etc.
And just to step in here……I’ve admitted that my views aren’t ideal, but they are MY views and will work in my perfect little world.
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If I had my way, we would never excute an innocent and anyone who raped or murdered would die a horrible, slow death.
DWN et al: *hugs*
Oh, my post but the short, short version.
I’m too sleepy right now to type more than a few lines. You did all my work for me! *smooch!*
DWN, feel free to make apologetics… I didn’t bring the lady into this one.
and she’s now established herself as naive, not venal.
And Matty, bubba! “reductio ad absurdum” means ‘reduce to the absurd’…
Hypocrisy means to evince one view and hold/act out another. Slamming someone for percieved idiocy, when you think the person is being an idiot isn’t hypocritical… and insults are just the iceberg of my contempt… which again is honestly held, and if I’m shown I’m wrong I’ll gladly retract the view as I did with my opinion that Xavier was a bigot.
I still think you need remedial English
and Frou
consider how “anyone who raped or murdered would die a horrible, slow death” reconciles with your faith. On one hand you think god has it in hand, on the other you think that God really isn’t equal to the game, or doesn’t know the facts of the matter.
So, why favour a confessedly flawed view in a imperfect world, such that you support getting the blood of one innocent man or woman vicariously on your hands?
(I’m not even sure why I bother anymore, but here goes)
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You apparently have more faith in Christians than even God does. At least He knows that we’re not perfect and even after becoming a Christian we still sin. You expect me to hold perfectly the ideals and teachings of Christ, and I can’t. I’m human, with human emotion, and when I see a murderer or a baby raper I want them to die. Legally and after a trial, but still a slow and painful death.
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That’s the last I’ll say to you about this.
Wow, couldn’t even address anything I said…
I can’t possibly state things better than DWN did, so I won’t even try. But times like these, I’m frankly disgusted at you, Uncle Fester. You’re a good person usually–what’s going on here? Aren’t there more important things out there than vilifying someone on the Internet for her views?
Because he knows you’re right. And I like the backhanded insults he slung at you.
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*sigh*
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DWN, can I get a hug? Or give you one?
the bit starting DWN was adressed to you you pontificating loon
and Frou… I expect, since you do it so loudly, to have the faith you profess…
I expect people to fail to meet the low bar I set…
and I’ve not thrown a backhanded insult at DeathWurm, other than in your pointed head.
I just called him a pontificating loon, which is direct, since I answerd all that was worth answering in his epistle to the unable to give a damn…
Anyone for ignoring everything Uncle Fester says after this?
Yep. He seems to think that because he knows a few latin phrases, he is above all. It’s extremely obnoxious, apparently I am just a few seconds away from shooting my school, and frou is just a hate mongering killer. So why anyone continues to put up with this nonsense is beyond me.
you do what you like dear… you’ve seldom made a cogent comment anyway, so I won’t miss the replies… and Matty is at the NEVER made cogent ones… so live it up
Actually Fes, name calling after calling me an apologist isn’t really addressing anything. It is just throwing a label and moving on. As for your inability to give a damn, I call shinnanigans. You seem very apt and willing to post and post and post about how somebody is a monster but then shrink back into your supposed not giving a damn state when you actually have to discuss your view for longer than a pointed jab.
And on behalf of loons, I resent your previous excuse for an insult.
Speaking of which, I have a few hugs to issue. *gives Froofrou a big bear hug with extra squeezing*
*happy sigh*
so tell me… what points did you make? It read like the
sort of thing that tries to explain why the OT god isn’t a nasty piece of work when he actually is.
Basically, it was apologetics… there was no point to reply to.
I believe the point I was making is that she like everybody else is human and thus has their violent views and peaceful views. She is in no position to affect any lives and her overall disposition has told me she has done no more than generalizing the problem and only somebody lookinng for a fight would actually think she is for killing innocents. She is for killing those guilty of killing others and rape.
The other point was simply asking what your point was to all this. You claim it doesn’t matter but keep at it.
As for your OT comparison, I don’t see how Froofrou is nasty for wanting the same people dead that you think should die.
And keep using the word apologetics if it makes you feel happy. You still haven’t refuted anything I said.
Because there’s nothing much to refute now you’ve pulled the points out
I disagree with the wording, but the general thrust I agree with.
Froufrou shoots off at the mouth without thinking, I think you’ve established that and she’s all but said it… what you want me to do about it? Agree? I agree…
It developed into a knife fight and shouldn’t have… sorry.
How are you using OT? Old Testament, Off Topic or some other use
But lets continue… people I think should die… the human version of nuclear waste is a thorny problem. Do I think an eye for an eye works? It never did and I don’t see any fall violent crime with the death penalty. Also, one error is too many, when someone’s life is on the line. Amplified DNA is now being shown as more error prone than first thought (sometimes to the point of 1 in 200 match, rather than a 1 in 22 billion) Beyond reasonable doubt just doesn’t work for the death penalty… case to consider – Amarillo Brian Deneke – a punk deliberately run over by a jock. After the event the jury admitted that if it had been Deneke in the dock they’d have handed out the death penalty, rather than charges of manslaughter with a sentence of ten years probation and a suspended $10 000 fine.
so, the death penalty is arbitrary. It depends to a large degree on whether the accused looks like he should go tot he chair than if he ‘deserves’ it. If people are so arbitrary, that I’d say they were ill qualified to hand out a euthanasia order on a dog. Folks who whine about ‘the poor victims’ would do well to remember Brian Deneke. The only reason the guy ever went to jail at all was that he was too dumb not to get caught getting drunk.
So, most of what I’m seeing has little to do with justice is more to do with revenge and a strange for of prejudice… There again, Justice has always been a doxy with a taste for old money or a man in uniform…
@UF: Well, you put me in a difficult place here. On the one hand, I know precisely what I mean, but that’s me. I don’t know if I’m getting my point across well because I don’t presume to see into your mind. So, you might just be right. However, on the other hand, I’m just about finished caring what you say. So, la. Whatever you like, sweetheart.
‘and the horse you rode in on’
if the phrase you’re looking for…
Ah, aggressive agreement. Kinky, I will bring the rubber suit and you bring your favorite ball gag and see who ends up with more bruises.
Your issue with the system is the same one I have. I don’t have issue with the punishment as it removes a problem from society. I just have issue with how it is done. I don’t find innocent death justifiable. I just don’t. So I don’t oppose the punishment, I oppose the hamhanded nature with which it is done.
And the ongoing circle jerk among PK regulars continues.
So says the person posting insults to strangers on an internet forum. Oh yeah, you’re WAY cooler than anyone here.
Mostly on your face, savor the flavor.
Naturally.
Take your STDs somewhere else, Deathie.
Ya, Deathie, take them elsewhere… Who we talking to now?
And if you don’t want to be involved in the circle jerk, why are you coming at it with your mouth so damn open?
And no doubt the palms flexed ready for action!
Ya, Troll may just be one person but I am sure his singular nature will compensated by his firm hand action and desire to get that in the mouth. I wouldn’t know myself but from the movies I have seen, I suspect it is hard work to jerk off that many guys. Troll has the spunk or will have the spunk in his hair so I should probably say tenacity to get the job done.
I think I might call him Sally though. Much nicer name for a circle jerk lover.
Oh, is that where the saying “Sally forth” comes from?
I don’t know about Sally comes from but I know a good nickname for a circle jerk groupie when I see one.
If Sally’s forth, who’s one, two, and three?
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Lynn, You, and Jane.
I was thinking, Lynn, You, and Jane personally… >_>
*kicks PK for post issues*
Hey–Ted was cute. Don’t talk about a cute guy that way. Just back your jealous-wagon to the paddock, Buster!
Decision made, if/when I snap, I am going for the face of every victim.
*jots down on invisible notebook and argues with shoulder imp over spelling*
He was very popular in Washington, with noises made about him going for office, but it’s beneath me to mention which party….
…and things started being beneath you when?
I am waiting for this stunning plot twist as well.
Yeeeah i’m with Rho on this one, I lived in San Antonio during the Bush years there and I am in no way proud of that sort of record. To me it screams “we are heartless and uncreative” and besides all that, life in prison seems a far worse punishment, to allow the human mind to fester on what it has done.
But perhaps I was never part of (real) texas. So my opinion wouldn’t count >.>
Just remember (and this is not appologist, just realist) that Texas has a weak governor’s seat. He may have been the figurehead, but the lieutenant gov was the one actually making the laws and presiding over the executions. Bush was the spokesperson though, and really should have been a little less callous, even if he never took his finger off the ‘kill’ switch.
That’s a good point.
Even as a weak Texas governor, Bush had the power to put the brakes on executions, but no thought was further from his mind. He refused to meet with Bianca Jaggar or Larry King about the Tucker execution. His mind was made up: He didn’t want to be perceived to be “weak on crime,” so he made a political decision on people’s lives. In my political view, this self-centered outlook, no matter what the cost to others, was a portent of things to come later, during his presidency, in Iraq, with more casualties.
Something that has been bothering me about this whole discussion. While Bush could have ultimately stopped the executions, shouldn’t this really stop at the judicial level? If the people of Texas are truly opposed to the death penalty (which they don’t seem to be as long as they sentence people to death), then why should the Governor be held responsible? He’s only upholding the sentence that was handed down by the convicted person’s peers. I personally am not in favor the the death penalty, but everyone wants to hold the Governor accountable when in fact it’s the juries that have sentenced the person to die.
THANK YOU!!!! *hugs eddie* People tend to lay blame at the feet of the most conspicuous person instead of trying to find out where it really belongs.
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The judiciary is not a function of the executive branch in Texas any more than it is in Washington D.C. They are separate. The governor can commute sentences, but why should he in cases where the person has been found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt by a jury? He is not judge and jury.
Aww, thanks! I was only trying to state the obvious.
Which you have a firm grasp on
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*hugs again*
Sometimes the obvious isn’t very obvious.
While we are on holding the wrong people responsible, Every little thing that happens is blamed on the president, and everyone seems too\ forget about the chamber of 535 people called “Congress”
I answered Eddie’s question above you, and it’s waaaay down there, but your view is covered in my answer to him. Also, I’ve linked a deal about the cost of the death penalty, by state.
I think perhaps it is the contrast of his behavoir with that of the Illinois governor who suspended all executions after several death sentances had been overturned. Link attached.
Juries only make recommendations on sentences. The judges, which are appointed by the executive implements them. So every jury could recommend a life sentence, but the judge could still decide to sentence each one to death row. So while those peers may not agree with the death penalty, and show so, the judges may decide to act on the will of the person who appointed them.
But it still isn’t the governor’s job to put people there. He can KEEP them there, but he can’t originally put them there.
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I wonder what the statistic is on judges going against a jury’s recommendations? Seth?
Maybe it’s different in Texas, but I know in the places that I have lived, the courts that handle major felonies that in other states would constitute capital punishment (I have never lived somewhere that allows it) the judges are appointed by the governor, or are appointed by someone else who has been appointed by the governor.
As far as I know, judges are by appointment here as well. That doesn’t say that the governor of any state is whispering in the ear of the judges and telling them what to do. They may have similar ideals, but the governor’s hands are basically off of the judiciary process.
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It’s the same way with the Supreme Court. Whatever type of president we have at the time a new judge is appointed (liberal or conservative) is going to pick a judge with similar ideals. That doesn’t mean that the president should be held accountable for whatever type of whacked out judgement the judge makes. And I say that knowing that a liberal Democrat president who I don’t agree with will probably be appointing one, if not more than one, judge during his tenure.
Right. An executive is going to appoint people that are in line with their interpretation of the laws. And like I said to eddie below, if an innocent person is sentenced to execution by a judge that was appointed, partly because of his views on the application of the death penalty, then I think that by proxy, the appoint-er should be held accountable as well.
But where does that accountability end? It has to end somewhere. You can’t keep going up the chain until you run out of links!
The judiciary is separate, and should remain so, even in cases of laying blame. Otherwise you’re allowing things to spill over that shouldn’t. I don’t necessarily agree with appointed judges, but we have what we have, and until enough people band together to change it, we’re stuck with it.
In Texas, on the state criminal level, our state is divided into districts. The judge in each of those districts is elected by the voters in that district. State criminal trials consist of two phases, the second of which is the punishment phase. In Texas, the original jury decides the verdict if it is life imprisonment or less. In death penalty cases, the jury sends a recommendation to the judge. Any disputes (including claims of overcharge) are handled in the next court up, the Appellate Court.
should be (including claims of over-sentencing)
I can haz GED?
@froo But where does accountability begin? Does it start with the executioner? Or the prosecuting attorney? Or the jury? Or the sentencing judge? Or perhaps the police department that arrested the wrong person? Or maybe the blame falls on the innocent person on death row for looking too much like someone else, or for being in the wrong place at the wrong time? Where does the accountability begin, because I think that everyone’s hands are dirty in the matter. Including the person that appointed a judge that they knew would play fast and loose with handing out death sentences.
Appointed judges do not hand out death sentences in Texas.
I’m not sure if it’s playing fast and loose, as you say. It’s more a difference of opinion as to when and how often the death penalty can be applied. There is a lot of room for interpretation of the law, and no one gets it right all the time. I’ve professed that I don’t have any problem with the death penalty. You have more of a problem with it. Just because I would support someone who would *probably* use the death penalty more often than a candidate you would support doesn’t make either of us wrong. It just means that we have different ideals about it.
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As far as the accountability, I think it begins with the police and ends with the judge, with the trial lawyers thrown in for spice. All of them have dirty hands, the dirtiest of which would be either the defense lawyer who did a crappy job of representing an innocent client, or the prosecution lawyer who ignored facts in order to make his case. The executioner is simply carrying out orders, and of course you can’t blame the innocent who was in the wrong place at the wrong time (but why were you in that crack house, sir?). The police would have culpability in the matter for not investigating properly. The blame still doesn’t travel up to the governor though. If you want to get picky, I guess you could hold the voters accountable for every innocent’s death because they voted the governor into office in the first place. You have to draw the line somewhere, and I think it’s shaky ground to blame what amounts to a friend of a friend of a friend for something the first person does.
True. Fast and loose was a hyperbole on my part. I know I had pointed out a previous one, I thought I had done the same with this one.
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And again, that’s where we differ. Just a matter of opinion. I think that if the executive that appointed the judge, and by proxy supports the death penalty, is responsible as well. Especially since most of the time, the persons innocence is called into question before they are put to death and the executive does nothing about it. But again, just a difference of opinion.
I’m not a lawyer, or have that level of legal knowledge, but when a person is tried for a crime, the prosecutor at that time recommends the death penalty or not. The jury then comes back with a guilty verdict, and then there is an additional phase for determing the penalty. The jury at that time recommends either the death penalty, life in prison, or what have you and the judge then seals the deal. If the jury says life in prison, the judge can’t then come along and say, “No, he’ll be put to death.” The juries recommendation is usually what is upheld by the courts.
I should have said “..that it’s my understanding when a person is tried for a crime..”
The jury really only decides guilt or innocence. It takes on the recommendation of the prosecutor, just as the judge takes on the recommendation of the jury. But thejudge can and many have, gone against the recommendation of the jury. What the jury recommends as the sentence doesn’t always happen. So what I am saying is yes, the judge can say, “While I take into consideration that the jury thinks that this person deserves life in prison, the evidence that has been presented to me I believe that they deserve death.”
I’m also, not a lawyer, but my mother is on the Bar (not practicing) and I’ve been too enough criminal trials (of my cousin, and for school) to see that the judge is the one that decides the sentence, not the jury.
Ok, but it still stands to reason that people are going to hold the Governor’s feet to the fire for not commuting a sentence, when in fact it was the judiciary that signed the death warrant. I still say that the Governor is following the decision made by the person’s peers (or the judge, whatever the case may be.)
I was just taking issue with the last statement of the post I was replying to. And I think that the governor should be held accountable for innocent people being executed if he appointed judges because he or she knew that they would use the death penalty whenever possible (hyperbole, I know).
Texas State District Attorneys don’t recommend length/type of punishment. In a jury trial, the jury is read the list of charges, and told the penalty range for such charges. The range for each degree of each charge has been decided by the Texas State Legislature. The jury then finds the defendant guilty or not guilty. (There is no “innocent.”) If the jury finds guilty of any or all of the charges, the court enters into the penalty phase. The jury is read prewritten instructions about the charges and the penalty ranges (fines and/or incarceration time), then…the underwear gnomes strike, and everybody’s all “oh noez, oh noez, dem sneeky nomes!”
I know that it’s a decision of guilty or not guilty. I had typed innocence for the sake of the English language, because not guilty would have been awkward. What you fail to mention about the instructions that are read to the jury, are that since the late 1800s, it has been stricken from the instructions that if they do not agree with the law that is being prosecuted that they can come down with a not guilty verdict, which could be used in a case that is being tried for death. But the jury is not informed of that, so if they did disagree with death being a possible penalty for the crime, they could just say not guilty. Also, I know how the system works. I know I over simplified it. But please, don’t talk down to me.
That is not true for Texas, which is what we are talking about here. If you continue to point out the differences in your state, I’m afraid you’re going to confuse some people here. Splitting hairs isn’t the purpose here. We’re talking about dead people, not whether the juror chairs are arranged 2×6 or 3×4.
I love the schooling I’m getting from you, rhorho
I’m speaking in the general sense about the laws because I haven’t taken the time to do the research, but you’re obviously well-versed in Texas law! I love it!! (and I swear I’m not being sarcastic, I’m being sincere!)
*sigh* PK hates me. I didn’t have profanity, urls, or anything in my last post, and it ate it anyway. I’ve had about 10 posts just not show up today. Is there a posting limit here? Have I exceeded it???? Oh PK gods, help!
I didn’t have the same problem, but I’ve had quirky problems on PK. For example, if I go on the MILF Anne Coulter thread, my PC borks, and I have to reboot entirely. It may be some sort of conflict with our browsers, but some days I do better on PK with Explorer, and other days Outlook works better. Weird!
@Eddie: I found the article (linked)
Fine. Whatever. I’m not in Texas and don’t ever plan to be, so I clearly cannot have an opinion about the death penalty there.
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And what I said about the instructions being stricken from jury instructions does hold true for Texas. Because it was a part of the judicial system that was set up at the beginning of the country. Unless Texas decided that they didn’t want to accept that part of the judicial system when they came crying to Polk about the opression of Mexico. But whatever.
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My original point, and the real reason why I was responding in the first place stil stands. That the jury does not hand out sentences. The judge does. Yes, even in Texas, as you have stated. That was the only reason why I was responding. So go ahead and continue to tell me how wrong I am, when I wasn’t even talking about the death penalty in the first place.
Law varies from state to state. Are you in Texas?
Nevermind. Didn’t think so.
I don’t know about all of the cases, but feel safe in saying that a lot can happen between conviction and death penalty execution. The wait is usually a decade or more. DNA technology, inmate remorse, new evidence, and so on. Like most Texans, I’m for the death penalty, but feel that, due to the permanent nature of the punishment, we better d*mn well know, as far as we can, that the convicted person is guilty. I personally feel like the determination should be above “beyond a reasonable doubt,” but I don’t know what that would be called. The Governor and Lieutenant Governor are the last resort. Imagine that you are about to be executed and you KNOW you are innocent. Think about George Bush being the last person to consider whether you should be heard. Then read the articles about how George Bush gave no one audience concerning the execution of Karla Faye Tucker, and how he mocked her pleas for life imprisonment. The guy is your last chance at life, and he couldn’t care less, because he doesn’t want anyone to think he is weak on crime. I just think that, in Bush’s case, he was derelict in his duty to take on one of the few important duties he had as Governor. Earlier I described the serial killer Kenneth Allen McDuff, who is famous in that he is believed to be the only person in the U.S. to be sentenced to death, released, then sentenced to death again. Kenneth, nicknamed “the Broomstick Killer,” killed 7-14 people, whereas George Bush let 10-20 (est.) innocent (of 152) people go to their deaths with no earnest final consideration. I’m not saying that George Bush had a magic truth wand in his desk that he failed to use. But what if he had listened, and spared one or more of those innocent people? Maybe they weren’t innocent, but were over-sentenced? Think of an overgrown idiot rich kid laughing at a fart joke.
While I can’t necessarity fault you on that, it just seems to me that the Governor (and not just Bush) probably thinks, “Well, we went through the normal appeals process and the guy (or girl) was found still guilty. So why should I stop it?” Wouldn’t that make more sense?
Yes, unless something like reform (I wrote remorse up there–ick!), DNA science advancements, etc. happened. It was Gonzo’s job to prepare a brief for Bush. In one such brief, the fact that the defendant was mentally impaired was left out altogether, but that’s cool, because Bush probably didn’t read it, anyway. In the case of Karla Faye Tucker, Bush didn’t allow meetings to discuss matters with any of her supporters. We’re talking death, right? If you were about to get your arm cut off, wouldn’t you want the last person in the chain to skim your documents? The Governor has very few other duties. The Texas Constitution is designed that way. It wasn’t like he was busy, but he just flat didn’t care!
I read the article you linked to, as well other commentary on the plight of Karla Tucker. From what I can determine, in the state of Texas the commutation of a death sentence is a two step process. The Board or Parole were the first to decline the commuting of her sentence, which was then upheld by Bush. The facts of the case are, she was convicted and the state at all levels upheld the sentence. If she was in fact guilty, begging to spare a life is really hypocrisy since she didn’t spare another person’s life who had no chance to beg for mercy.
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What I’m wondering about though is, was all of protesting held because she was a woman? If there have been hundreds of people put to death, why single one individual because of gender?
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I do NOT support the death penalty, I think it’s barbaric and inhumane. However, until the people of the states that do have the death penalty rise up and have it stopped, it’s not going to go away.
Didn’t Karla Faye Tucker kill her four children in a bathtub? And we should keep her alive why?
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(Or am I thinking of another Texas crazy mom who should be tortured to death?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karla_Faye_Tucker
I found it earlier
Thanks! I’m not sure who I’m thinking of…..I know there have been two bathtub murderers in this state. Yay Texas *sigh*
I think there were three cases of mothers killing kids. The bathtub one was near Houston, and there was one here in East Texas. God told that mom to smash her kids with rocks. I’ll try to find a link. My electrician’s son had been to the crazy lady’s house before the incident. He was telling me how creeped out it made him feel.
The Houston mother was Andrea Yates, drowning her five children, not guilty by reason of insanity. (link)
Yeah, you pretty much have to be a complete loon to kill your kids
She still deserves a slow roasting over an open fire, crazy or not.
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Out of curiosity, where in east Texas? If you don’t want to say here, send me a message on my profile. I have family there
Ok, it ate ANOTHER post……*sigh*
I still have family there.
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What part of east Texas? If you don’t want to say here, send me a message on my profile
AGH! Rhorho, message me. AOL, or MSN. Same name as here.
The East Texas mother was Deanna Laney, killing 2 children and maiming 1 child for life, by beating them with rocks, not guilty by reason of insanity.
“life in prison seems a far worse punishment, to allow the human mind to fester on what it has done.”
But then we have to pay for that for decades. Prisoners ain’t cheap.
and the eternal appeals process is cheap?
In the context of the statement I quoted, my rebuttal stands.
True.
Click name for costs of death penalty, by state.
I was very curious about the cost to taxpayers a while back, and looked it up. It costs MORE in legal fees (lining lawyer pockets) than it does to house the average felon for the rest of his natural life.
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You may not share my opinion on whether lawyers need more money, but I would rather pay a little more to keep someone locked up for life than to pay those rabid legal leeches to go through the motions of limp automatic appeal procedures.
The first thing is, we kill all the lawyers.
If you’d made that ‘accountants’ you’d have severely tested my principles…
We will just beat the hell of them, no killing. I want my taxes filed properly.
NO–Kill was right. There’s software for the other stuff, and they can’t check your math, as long as we get all of ‘em. *mental note: more bullets*
*Oils rifle; performs mental ammo inventory*
*Grabs phone book*
Wanna go A-Z, or keep ‘em guessin’ ?
Let’s start in the middle and work our way out!
Hey, wait. Maybe we oughta go on our killin’ spree after we elect a Democrat into the Governor’s Mansion…
…and change our minds about whether we get libraries and high speed internet service in prison.
psychopath ( ) n. A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy.
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Just sayin’.
you rang?
Hey, that’s *Lurch’s* line, you scene stealer!
SH!T–Nesting fail. This was supposed to be under my rant about Bush’s lack of sympathy for final death row appeals.
It happens.
The average cost to put someone to death, ten years ago, was 2 and 1/2 million dollars. Even at the 25k to 35k it costs to incarcerate someone, life in prison is cheaper.
True, but I think what ham was saying is that insofar as b*sh pardoned anyone, he didn’t single out black people in particular to execute.
I was thinking that ham was making a joke–a very clever one, at that. Am I wrong?
I wouldn’t call you wrong; however:
“He appoints fundamentalists without regard to race, gender or qualifications, as long as they are willing to sign the loyalty oath.”
That strikes me as less of a joke and more of a documentary. As much as I hate to say anything non-derogatory about b*sh, it does seem to be true that race and ethnicity are not particularly on his radar — nor is competency for the job — the determining factor is whether or not you’re his kiss-butt pal and syncophant [sp?].
You’ve just described every politician in history, including Obama, who has ever or will ever make an appointment to office. It’s all about how brown your nose is. Or, in Biden’s case, how white your teeth are.
Does it mean anything that Obama’s nose sorta started out brown? Did that give him an unfair advantage over others??? *eyes Tessie and froofrou suspiciously*
Oh, noes! I’m racist and don’t even know it!
[stands in corner]
*gives Tessie getz out of rassizm free card*
LOL. I think racially, brown-nosing could be interpreted differently…..unless the tongue is also brown from licking as many butts as possible
*checks froofrou’s tongue* Nope–Still pink!
*Checks froo’s tongue*
Nope, still pink!
*gives froo tic tacs*
Ya gotta love pink tongues!
That’s interesting. I didn’t read it that way at all. To me (and I think PortlandMark, based on his comment below) it seemed like, “I don’t care what color you are as long as you sell your soul to me, bwa-ha-ha, etc.
This interpretation would be consistent with the first half of his post, imo.
You are so correct! I’ll actually give Junior credit for that: he disrespects all races equally!
Good one. I’m thinking this is FTW. Anybody?
That was my first thought! Lol.
Condoleezza Rice – highest ranking black woman ever.
right, no blacks or women were appointed by Bush.
what arrogant twats you Bush haters are. Change we need means retreaded Clintonites and a handful of Chicago cronies.
Retreaded? I think my tires are fine, thanks.
…sorry, had to say it.
Actually, “retreaded” does kind of make sense, too. It might have been intentional.
/shrug
I think I see who’s sock you are…
“Change we need means retreaded Clintonites and a handful of Chicago cronies.”
I’m starting to edge that way myself. I understand the desire to find people who have experience in these various positions, but simply to pull up all of the ones that worked in the Clinton White House does seem, undeniably, to be “more of the same”.
Not saying these people aren’t qualified, but you have to admit, it’s hard, with a straight face, to maintain a website called “change.gov” when what’s really happening is Clinton 2.0.
And after all of that campaigning about McCain simply being Bush’s 3rd term…
I’m not throwing in the towel yet, but my disappointment level is increasing with each new announced nominee.
Colin Powell and Condoleza Rice? Alberto Gonzales, who RICHLY, deserves to spend some time in lockup is latino.
Of course not; he keeps us in the house, never in the field.
Nope. Not his style, er….color.
Hey, which one of those is good ol’ Gonzo?
The orange ones are poison . . .
I don’t see Donald Rumsfeld being tried for war crimes…
Hell no… although we know Iraq had the materials for WMD, since Don sold them to Saddam back in the day. Shame he shot is load over the Kurds… then we’d not be making noises over ‘War Crimes Trials’
OH CMON. I hate Bush but this is so liberal you might actually be able to see Barack Obama blush.
Why is implying that Bush got you into an illegal war by invading a sovereign power by lying ‘liberal’? Unless actually looking at recent history is just a liberal past time…
Sounds like another one who missed their shot of thorazine…
Check your statement, then tell me the difference between facts and implications.
Sounds like another one fell asleep in English class.
I think we should keep you… you’re going to be fun…
*claps rapidly*
Confused as to how this war, or any war for that matter, is illegal. Congress only can declare war, and they DID. And everyone needs to quit their b*tching and moaning about WMD lies. Everyone thought that Iraq had WMD, because they DID. How do you think Saddam was gassing the Kurds? or did we forget about all of that? And don’t think I’m some War Hawk, who doesn’t care about American lives. Many of my friends will be in that war come three or four years from now, and I personally know people who have died over there. I was a breath away from going myself, and I have seen how the military operates from the inside. Yeah, me, the guy who tries to calm things down and keep it real. I’ve been in. It’s one thing that really p*sses me off when people start talking about war like they know it, when they obviously don’t. Talk to people who’ve been there, They will tell you all kinds of crazy things about the chemicals in the Tigris, all kinds of crazy things about Iranians who sell Explosively Formed Projectiles to the insurgency. Have you ever seen what that can do to an Abrams? I have. No one inside survives. One of my close friend’s brothers died in Afghanistan in an ambush. I’ve seen what they did to his FOB on a failed assault. Even then, I’ve never been over, and I have only a sliver of knowledge as to what it’s like, but that sliver is enough to know an ignorant nay-sayer when I see one. Yeah, it sucks. But don’t go blaming Bush for it. The war is one of the few things I agree with him on. Freaking Rumsfeld couldn’t commit enough troops in the beginning, and it turned into this. Whatever.
Feel free to shoot me now, I’ve definitely left myself open to stabs from the conservative and liberal wackos out there.
Great post! Thank you!!
Well, that’s confirmed my impression of you.
You love me?
Not exactly…
You lie, you ol’ toughy!
You’re welcome. It is nice to know someone possibly got the point of that long and rambling post. Unfortunately, some people have to be trolls, and cannot help but attempt to sweep aside an entire conversation’s worth of postage with a single, remotely related comment.
No, the had them back when they were the US’ friend… how do we know? You sold them the bits to make them when we were all friends.
Did they have them when we invaded in 2003? No, they didn’t… they’d used them on the Kurds, back when we were all friends.
Seems to me you need to fact check what it was like in 2003 – no al-qaida, no WMD
Now, well Al-Qaida’s in there and there ARE chemical weapons there… only took 4 and half years before the reason they WENT to war and reality coincided…
So, before you get your knickers in a twist, I’d suggest you fact check it.
So many idiots, so little time to be unpleasant to them all…
Of course, the reason that Saddam *had* WMD is because the US sold them to him…
Point of order… they didn’t sell him the weapons… they sold him the parts.
Actually, Congress never declared war. They gave the president the ability to move troops to where he thought was reasonable to fight against terrorist. There was never, in all of the records of the sessions of the Senate under the Bush 43 administration, a declaration of war. Please. Check yourself. The only war that had been declared has been declared by the media with a catchy name and exploding graphics.
Oh be fair- Bush has declared a War on Terrorism many times- the media just repeated it. NOT legal decalration, but the media did not make it up out of whole cloth…for once
Did LBJ lie to get into Vietnam? If I remember correctly, he wasn’t even president when you lot were ‘advising’ while the French handed you the ticking bomb that was the South East Asian Problem….
TBH, you’re just pulling nonsense out to justify an untenable position…
He inherited JFK’s hyperactive foreign policy. He actually wanted nothing to do with the place, figured he could work out a deal with the North to get us out before we got deeper. When he made the mistake of believing his advisers that we could run the war on the cheap, and still afford his Great Society, is when we lost the war (before the first shot was fired in the Ia Drang, in fact).
Amen… one of the best analyses of the whole sorry mess… and really all JFK wanted to do was prove his graduate thesis was ‘correct’
“If “invading a sovereign power” is illegal show me a legal war.”
Well, for example, if we’d gone after the people who actually attacked us on 9/11, instead of a completely separate nation that had nothing to do with it.
That having been said, there’s often a slippery slope in determining whether or not it’s “justified” to go to war, and if so, why it’s justified; but I will say that this clusterf&ck/black hole for money seems particularly wrongheaded.
Tessie, KK left out the last two words of that phrase, “…by lying.” Your part still stands, but misquotes take my mind to a place where the meds don’t reach.
Alberto Gonzales – alone – has been found to have broken fistfulls of laws. Strangely his new AG has declined to press charges. Scooter Libby was found guilty, and pardoned. Alberto and Cheney were both indicted for abuse of power earlier this week.
There’s gonna be a whole raft of preventative pardons coming out of GWBs office in the next 2 months.
Have you heard the legal expert/talking heads going off on whether Bush can pardon himself?
Oh ha ha ha!!! How clever, a funny joke about Republicans! Never heard THAT before. Oh, so funny! I bet if there was nobody else making fun of Bush, you wouldn’t hear anybody do it on their own. Cowards run in packs, and I can’t wait for the day Barack screws up so we can crucify him as well.
Ah, yet another st!t bomber… they forget the thorazine on your ward?
You spend WAY too much time on this web site- with your personality, it’s easy to see why- you have no friends in real life!
ah, Night-Stick Norman’s shining wit comes to the fore…
Not so much. It’s more the fact that Bush just makes it so easy to do.
Lack of sense of humor much? C’mon..that was funny. Of course it is true about every politician but dear old Bush just makes it so easy. And I voted for him…the first time anyways. Troll. Spppplllltttttt!
Don’t complain about Bush being made fun of, Its part of being president.
Hell it is an integral part of being in the public eye.
Believe me, once Obama takes power he’ll get the same treatment.
Old Nyarlathotep is going to make sweet meat
You honestly believe that?
Hold on, I’ve got a bridge downtown that’s for sale.
ah the idiot speaks again…
Profound. Seriously, how will I ever keep up?
I’ll just sit back and wait on the next “OMG BUSH IS EVEL LOLZ” that you regurgitate for us.
Get a job.
This is bad. I’ve begun to find squawking, egotistical liberals that spew their unfounded theories online fantastically entertaining. It’s kind of like watching a guy that’s threatening to jump off a building; you know it’s wrong, but you can’t wait to see what they do next.
Ah an idiot to mock… nearly as much fun as the Army guy who threatens people…
Go cry, emo kid.
Keep it up! It’s funny…
Obama started coming in for (at the very least) a razzing about three seconds after his acceptance speech: He’s a commie, he’s a socialist, he’s going to give all our money to poor people, the puppy he’s getting for his kids is a pinko commie puppy, blah blah blah. Nothing I’ve seen, heard, or read so far indicates that any of this is going to change once he actually takes the oath of office — in fact, it will probably intensify once he’s had his first day on the job and actually done something work-related.
I’m not complaining (yeah, I know — for once); I actually think it’s healthy to be able to rib those in a position of power. Obama’s gotten at least his fair share and then some to date, and I don’t think it’s going away anytime soon.
Barrack screw up? The most perfect human ever? Can’t happen, the MSM won’t let it happen, anything that goes wrong in his term will always be the fault of GWB.
Ah, a retread! (sic)
“the MSM won’t let it happen”
Miami Sound Machine? :\
*sings* “Gitmo, Gitmo, it’s off to work we go…”
…With razor blades and hand grenades!
..Gitmo! gitmo, gitmo, gitmo!
Interesting exchange further up; sounds like a bunch of folks had too much or not enough coffee today.
hmmmm..where’d my comment go????
Trying again…..
To Esa:
“Gitmo! Gitmo, gitmo, gitmo!”
To everyone else:
The exchange up above was interesting – looks like there was too much or not enough coffee this morning.
oh indeed… probably all of the above…
depends what was in it… there’s a word filter and an HTML filter that sort of moderates things…
You got it wrong. These are current Guantanamo prisoners, future Obama appointees.
I love Obama but that was funny (wrong but funny).
hi i have a lot of better lolz. btw awesome comments
i need friends
Good for you… and I think you’re prissy and dumb… so we’re about even.
Sure. They didn’t have them in 2003, but that is when we invaded Iraq.
If we can justify invasion for things that are no longer relevant, then we should invade Vatican City for the crimes committed during the Inquisition.
And you both can DIAF as far as I care.
Sometimes I wish…
*pats shoulder* It’s okay. I’m still entranced.
*hugs* Thanks love.