emmanuelle friend

http://www.redorbit.com/news/general/215200/israel_set_to_remove_final_settlement_in_gaza/index.html

During the whole Gaza fiasco, the spokesman for Israel that was assigned to the US news agencies was INSANELY on message, “Hamas is… We are defending… thousands of rockets…” over and over again. No questions answered, clarified or expanded upon. They wouldn’t allow any foreign press into Gaza. It was crazy. I think there was even a statement that was leaked that went something like, “We can have a successful mission, but we will look terrible in the pictures.” The fact that they knew they would be killing hundreds and hundreds of civilians, and they were worried about how it looked is absolutely chilling. What you wrote above is exactly what they wanted you to know, and nothing more.

I would suggest you check some recent news reports about Sderot (takes about 3 seconds of typing in Sderot rocket attacks). I found a report about continued rocket attacks in January and another in May (which was talked about due to Israel retaliating).

Hamas was not given the authority to attempt to oust the Palestinian President Abbas, nor attack and kill members of other political factions or Palestinian citizens they accuse of “aiding Israel”. Hamas was, and still is, an organization that uses terrorism, violates human rights, and promotes genocide. Other “democratically elected” governments have been outed before. Especially when they have attacked, killed, and threatened others.

A country needs good governance, peaceful relations with other countries, and to not promote genocidal propaganda. All things Palestinians have lacked. If a people cannot find it in themselves to be able to respect their neighbors, keep peace in their territory, stop violence against their neighbors by their own people, and not commit human rights violations on their own people how can anyone be expected to believe they will create a lawful nation?

It is shameful what happened in Gaza. But Hamas is as much, if not much more responsibility, for the deaths then Israel. Israel choses only military targets or people believed to be a threat (even if sometimes they were wrong). Israel attempted to warn Palestinians about possible danger of military strikes in their neighborhood. Hamas used homes, schools, and mosques to store weapons and munitions, base attacks from, set up booby traps, pass themselves off as civilians, and use women and children as soldiers/weapons. Hamas could use the approximate 25% of Gaza that is not developed to base their attacks, abandoned buildings, or clear civilians from their bases of operation. Instead they encourage civilian casualties by operating in their midst, disguising themselves as civilians, and conscripting children and women. Hamas constantly attempts to kill Israelis, while Israel tries to refrain from retaliating.

If you think Israel “spins” information then you have no clue about Palestinian “reporting”, creation of “scenes”, and falsifying of information that has been called Pallywood. You can research such great instances as “The Green Helmet Guy”, Al-Fakhura UN School, the Ghalya family deaths, the Jenin “massacre”, the “Martyr’s Crossing”, digital enhancement of photos, placement of items (dolls, manequins), ect. Israel researches their information and tries to make the most credible accounts they can.

Israel is largely secular and follows civil laws. The Jewish religious people are not a majority, yet there is still conflict. Maybe it is because Hamas uses the Khaybar verse of the Koran in their charter (it calls for the death of all Jews). Israel has offered and stood by numerous peace proposals while Palestinian leaders have taken every oportunity to break them or demand to change them. Israel forcefully removed every settler from Gaza. The Palestinians entered the settlements, destroyed the synagogues, greenhouses, and most of the infrastructure and continued their attacks on the Israelis. “Palestinians never miss an oporatunity to miss an oportunity”.

You say we depend solely on Israel for humanitarian aid and work. You depend on the U.S. government for 5 billion dollars of your budget, and American Jews for another boost. You force us to depend on you for the very water that comes into the west bank. We have no air or sea ports, we have no control over the border, and we have no other choice. You speak as though we have the world at our feet in Palestine, and we choose not to reach for it. We aren’t allowed to grant Palestinian citizenship to those who wish it. We aren’t allowed to pave roads without Israeli approval. We aren’t allowed to expand towns. We aren’t allowed to improve infrastructure without Israeli approval. You mentioned how little land Israel has compared to Palestine/West Bank. It’s is Palestine only in name when you only grant control of 33% of it to the Palestinian Authority, with the remaining majority still under Israeli control.

Don’t talk to me about dead Israeli women and children after what happened in Gaza. That was a true shame on Israel.

Don’t swallow whole the “truths” your government feeds you, my friend. Israel’s public/media relations ministry is notorious for spin.

I am sorry for harping on religion, but I can’t help to feel that if all of Israel were secular, the conflict would have been over by now.

(To be clear, when I use “you” I mean Israel. I certainly don’t blame you for the conflict, it’s just a writing style.)

“almost all of them have had a family member killed or wounded by a Palestinian gunman or suicide bomber” I seriously doubt that since service in the IDF is mandatory for non-Arab Israelis. It could be that that particular soldier had an itchy finger, and this was an isolated incident. However, these are supposed to be professional soldiers, not people with a personal vendetta to repay.

“The Palestinians feel that the Israelis are invaders, though most had lived there before 1948, ” The settlements are illegal on land forcibly confiscated or bought from Palestinians through intimidation. My family owns land on which a military outpost now sits. No “compensation” was given. We are in the process of suing for our land back. Though, realistically, nothing will come of it. We own another tract of land that we are not allowed to build on due to Israel “defining” the borders of towns. As with the wall, this is another way in which it is ghettoizing parts of Palestine in an effort to gain more territory for Israel to expand it’s borders. After all, God demands it of them, does he not?

“and some of the lack of specific information (date, place, ect) makes me hesitant to believe it is 100% factual.” My recollection of the event is crystal clear in my mind. However, I have forgotten the name of the checkpoint, but it is the main entrance to Ramallah. It occurred the summer my brother in law was married, 4 years ago, not 2. I’m sorry for that mistake.

I’d like to add that before I visited Israel and Palestine, I thought Israel had every right to do whatever it wanted within it’s own borders and Palestine. In my mind, it was only defending itself from “crazy arabs”. I grew up arguing with my parents about it saying, “What do you want them to do? Just let terrorists attack them freely?” The moment where understanding of my family’s viewpoint came in the airport in Tel Aviv. Arabs were segregated from Jews, no matter where they were from. No questions were answered in the eight hours I was made to wait. Questions like, “Are the computers down? Is that whats taking so long?” or “How much longer do you think this will be?” or “Is there any more information that you need from me to make this go quicker?” No answers. Nothing. Not even, “I’m sorry about this, really, but there is nothing we can do.” Blank stares, complete rudeness, and a sense that I was worth less to them then the dirt under their feet. The one saving grace of that whole experience was one girl that let me come outside with her to smoke a cigarette, clearly a security violation. Thank god for her, or else I would have broken down in tears after the 4th hour of sitting on the floor with no idea what I’m waiting for. After that experience, my eyes opened to all the other little atrocities that were happening around me. I don’t hate Israel. I really don’t. I hate it’s policies, and I hate that what drives it is religion.

Jews are not the “owners” of that land, as decreed by God. If native South Americans, for example, decided that the United States belonged to them, as decreed by the Gods they worship, would we not look at them like.. WTF? If they gathered together, planned and implemented the creation of a “holy country” on another nation’s land, would we permit it? If it then based immigration into that country on religion, wouldn’t that be slightly bananas? Yes. Yes it would be. Just like waging a “holy war” on the west by Islamic militants is bananas. Israel just had the power, money, and sympathy or hatred of Europe to let it happen. Palestinians were deemed unimportant and swept aside, and we are still suffering for our own ignorance and poverty. We were farmers. We are still farmers. We just want to grow grapes and olives. We were uneducated, which added to the ease in which we were dismissed. Now, everyone is educated, but no one has a job. We sit around drinking tea and smoking an argilla talking endlessly about politics and corruption within the Palestinian Authority. We shrug our shoulders and say, “So what. Let them get what they can get, tomorrow Israel will take more land, build more of the wall, or build another settlement.” We are slowly dying. This is what breeds suicide bombers, my friend, hopelessness.

It looks like you and I see the situation from opposite sides. I view the Jews as the “Natives” as their ancestors had come to, and resided in the area longer and continuously (though many times in very few numbers). True, many who began to emmigrate back (some fleeing persecution, others to return to their home) to the area prior to the conflict came from European countries, but some also came from other Arab countries. I will state I find it odd how the Arabs can get incensed by Israel which occupies so little land, when they have so much more. It was only after the 1970s that the Palestinians were viewed by Arabs as an independant “ethnic group”. Till then the Palestinians were Arabs (in the early 1900s the Jews were typically called Palestinians or Palestinian Jews).

I agree with you that if the Palestinians and Israelis (and heck everyone) could learn to live in peace, then the area could be very beautiful and vibrant (or maybe more beautiful and vibrant). Hopefully the people, and their leaders, will realise that and choose peace.

This is why certain people got all upset over (thankfully former) President Bush’s remark about the Constitution being “just a goddamned piece of paper.”

As for dogs, have we not spent 10,000 years impressing our predilections on their gene pool?

For instance, how might we organise our society to avoid giving excessive power to alphas or other sources of abuse? How can we share power in a realistic fashion so that government is possible?

- When you think a wall in the middle-east is built from labor outsourcing

- When the poster comment is long

- When the poster comment is not even funny

And the mention of Jack Thompson gives me fits, DWM, just to warn you. That guy has his head so far up his ass…but anyway. I lieks teh Halo!!1!!111!!!

“Your information seems extremely outdated, the days of children hurling rocks has passed.” My first visit to Israel and Palestine, 2 years ago, I was waiting in line in my car at the checkpoint at the refugee camp on the way to Ramallah. Some boys, between 6-14 years old started hurling rocks at the soldiers. The soldiers were wearing helmets with visors protecting their faces. They wore full body armor and carried automatic weapons. One soldier shot at the boys. If this somehow happened in the US, where I live, I know the bullets would have been rubber. This being in Israel, I’m more inclined to believe they were live rounds. Thankfully the soldier missed, and instead shot out the windshield of the car in front of me. The driver of that vehicle was alone, and no one was hurt, thank God. If that bullet hit our car, which was full, I don’t know what would have happened.

I am unaware of the details pertaining to the wall and who is “more” affected. I am only aware of what I experienced personally and what my family has experienced.

I’m curious as to what you think happened in Gaza, not what has happened in Darfur, since Israel and Palestine are the subject here.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org

Still, I don’t think it’s possible to overestimate the impact of hateful propaganda campaigns like the one waged against Jews worldwide, especially following the publishing of Protocols of Zion.

Interesting bit though.

Terry: The point that must be emphasized over, and over, and over again: pro-life leaders and the pro-life movement are not responsible for George Tiller’s death. George Tiller was a mass-murder and, horrifically, he reaped what he sowed.

Q: So who is responsible …

Terry: The man who shot him is responsible …

Q: “… because that makes it sound like you were saying that he [Tiller] is responsible.

Terry: The man who shot him is responsible.

Q: What did you mean by “he reaped what he sowed”?

Terry: He was a mass-murder. He sowed death. And then he reaped death in a horrifying way.

Then, as the press conference was ending:

“Thank you for coming, unless there’s any other questions. [Off-Camera] And I truly am sorry that we had to meet under these circumstances. I like Guinness for those of you who want to have a beer somewhere. I prefer my chicken wings really hot and a little crispy. ”

For those who want to know more about this real piece of work: {http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randall_Terry}

Historical argument doesn’t hold much weight with me. AT THE TIME that Jews started fleeing pogroms in Europe and Russia, the Palestinian/Arab/Muslim people were living there. They had been there for a very long time, and hadn’t had anything to do with kicking out the Jews. I think the argument that one’s ancestors some 2000 years previous had once lived there is a rather thin reason to evict people from their homes. One might as well argue that anyone of Asian or European descent should leave the Americas and allow the Native Americans to own the continent, especially since their claim is much more recent.

That said, I don’t see any benefit to kicking the Jews out of the region at this point either. I just think something has to be done to allow these people to live together without violence. Let that happen and in a hundred years you’ll have the most beautiful and culturally vibrant areas in the world, imo.

Rest well.

Possibly my favourite topic there is, but I gots to sleep. Catch you another time.

Basically, I am saying that I can’t change my proverbial spots just because I say so. I have to actually work at it. Cheating implies we get to just get around doing the emotional work.

When you say “we don’t get to cheat our natures”, do you mean you think we’ll be tied to what we are now forever? Do you think there’s a possible future where, say, violence is no longer a natural human instinct?