THE ORIGINAL BORDER PATROL
Ask a Native American about the effects of uncontrolled immigration
(Native Americans)
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THE ORIGINAL BORDER PATROL
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I won’t let you do it!
First is the worst. Second is the best
Third is the one with the hairy chest. And back. Eww.
Yes is no and no is yes … do you want me to hit you in the face?
Maybe.
Are there any sober enough to answer?
Who do you mean, the Redskins pictured or the Cowboys in the Texas GOP?
(pass me a Lone Star Beer, and where’s mah remote????)
lmfao
ftr lol was for both comments…
Epic win, IMHO.
Seconded. Best poster ever. (I happen to be 1/16th Lipan Apache. Not much, but enough that my dad impressed upon us the importance of being descended from the original inhabitants of our country.)
What is that importance?
Er… why is that of importance?
It is a matter of personal connectivity out of respect for those who came before those who presently dwell in the land.
Connecting and empathizing with the previous land tenants is VERY important.
For Example:
Spanish Mexico owned Hollywood and Houston before English Speaking Settlers bought up the land — before CA & TX were joined as a US States…
– which is why white folks like me are the TRUE Immigrants among Spanish-Speaking Mexican-Americans in California and Texas.
Yes, but pretty much everyone is 1/16th Native American. And everyone has a grandmother who is 1/4 Cherokee. It’s become a meme.
1/4 Jewish, 1/4 Japanese, 1/4 Irish, 1/4 Alaskan Eskimo Im a JewJariskimo!
No one knows where my grandmother on my dad’s side came from, or my adopted mother’s family, even though she found them she hasn’t talked about it, nor can they seem to find her dad, who was in high school at the time of birth…
So I’m 1/4 french (grandfather moved to canada, so french-canadian?) and 3/4ths mystery meat.
I’m complete mystery meat. I was a closed adoption at 6 weeks. I could be anything!!
Uhm..
Froo. Please don’t call yourself mystery meat. It’s just disturbing to hear a woman call herself “meat” for two reasons..
So have you ever tried to track down your parents and meet them? That’s what my mum did.
you can almost hear the eyes rolling in a room when somebody trots out that line about being “a quarter Cherokee on my grandmother’s side”…because there have never been that many Cherokee grandmas in the world in the first place
I have a WASP acquaintance who claims to be part Cherokee and says that her eyes and bone structure are completely Cherokee. *coughbullshit*
I think a lot of boring people trot out the part Cherokee card to make themselves seem more interesting and because they don’t know any other tribes….
It has also led rise to the term “Cherohonkey”. Being a white as hell person with dream catchers dangling from your rear view and at least one shirt with a howling wolf on it.
And yet if you ask them about Native American history they’ll say “they called corn maize and lived in wigwams.”
I have a friend who really is 1/16 Native American but she could care less and knows how everyone says that so we make fun of her and buy her dreamcatchers and stuff for her birthdays.
I’m 1/4 but don’t have any tribal rights.. it’s a long story, but let’s just say grandma wasn’t always the model citizen.
Well I can assure everyone that I am 100% pure bread not Cherokee.
If my Grandmother claimed to be half Cherkee, I’d think someone had let her at the gin…not least because I’m European
Yay.
I’m glad you’re not Cherokee bread. Then you’d be eaten.
And cherkee? O.O Jane (the second), are you roasting Cherokees and selling them as jerky?
Tell me, drive through Santa Fe sometime and all you see are white-wannabe-indians buying every freaking indian ‘artifact’ they can find. It’s even worse when you visit their houses and it looks like the inside of a hogan but with plaster, electricity, and a bathroom that 3 families could live in. And don’t forget the gobs of turquois jewelry they wear as well.
Agreed. I lived in the SW with a Navaho neighbor… that is, she was raised on a reservation w little water and carried her daughter in a papoose… while my brother lived near Sedona, AZ… where white pot-heads make dream catchers…
Crazy.
Me? I’m a mutt. woof.
– I have as much Irish in me as Obama, but I look pale so it’s an easy excuse for free beer in March.
Sweet.
*Furtively dusts velvet painting of semi-naked indian maiden riding bareback in the snow at night*
I don’t have any tees with wolves howling, but is it all right if I LOVE wolves? It’s not related to Native Americans, just the fact that they’re teh awesome and like dogs (and I do love me some doggies
) except 10x smarter.
And 10X meaner.
And 10X funner to set on the neighbors growing pot next door.
It’s actually kinda funny because my wife really is more than 1/4 Choctaw, but she’s paler than I am and I’m pretty damn white. Her sister on the other hand has the skin tone, but none of the “eye and bone structure” so she just looks like she has a permanent tan. And frankly, neither of them could give a crap less about their Indian heritage.
So, it’s only important to remember who you are if you are the “invaders”? Thanks for your post, but it didn’t quite answer what I was asking.
And is there importance in being descended from some particular form of immigrant?
I’m 1/8 Blackfoot – my grandfather picked tobacco as a child of a drunken full-breed father among ten other siblings and lied about his age to join the navy, get an education, and get the hell out of the one room shack he was raised in. He spent his adulthood as a successful electrical contractor and working his ass off to provide his family a good, rural/suburban life, upwardly mobile.
He impressed upon me a “work your ass off” work ethic and a hatred of people who do nothing but booze their lives away.
By the way, that is a literal, not figurative shack. I have no idea how the hell they all lived there, much less had more and more kids. He was one of the few who “made good”. The rest are mostly boozing themselves to death with inbred families and carrying on the traditions. We never knew their culture or cared to immerse ourselves in it; a visit now and again was enough to inoculate us against any romantic notions. Unless you wanted to be a battered wife or something.
Except for the part where INDIANS DIDN’T HAVE GUNS until the Europeans arrived. History accurate commentary: FAIL!
It’s a humor site, for Christ’s sake; don’t nit-pick.
Good point. Although sometimes glaring historical fallacies can kill the joke. This one just didn’t work for me.
yeah and the europeans didnt have guns until the chinese gave it to them
just because you rename the fire lance doesn’t mean you invented it
Obvious identifying parentheses are obvious. And kinda lame.
ouch
There’s a big difference between uncontrolled immigration and invasion/conquest.
Right! Conquest is way more funner!!!
Well, for the conquerors, anyway.
for the rest, not so much.
So… the fact that white Europeans raped and pillaged over the continent is the basis for the argument that the descendants of those same people should shut out more non-whites from the same continent?
Yeeeeeeeah. That’s the kind of sense that’s not.
Making light of the systematic near-extinction of indigenous peoples is not for fun, kids.
Quiet you, I’m trying to rape your pillage.
…or was that village?
Eather way, quit squirming!
No it’s steal the women and rape the horses!!!!
Dew: Yeah those Native Americans were living in peace and harmony with each prior to the White Man showing up.
One thing they definitely did not do was rape women, it was very taboo to do that. Also, they didn’t have lawyers…
Actually they kidnapped many of the women and or sold them into slavery. They might not have raped them where the battle took place, but eventually I’m sure they didn’t necesarily want the “husband” they got.
Most of the captured women did not become wives unless they wanted to, there may have been isolated incidents but it was definitely against their customs to force themselves on a woman. Now, slavery was ok and many captured women were beat and put to work.
Let’s not forget about either a) killing all the men and b) killing all the boys are selling hem off into slavery. Some were incorporated into the tribe. Also about Rape it depends what culture we’re talking the Mayans weren’t really known for their subtlty. Most of the North American tribes were “stand up” about rape, but there definitely were some who didn’t really care.
True, I wasn’t trying to say they couldn’t be brutal to captives or in battle.
Well I was just trying to point out the wonderful world of how evil the White Man was, when some of the tribes were doing it to each other. We just had better weapons and were more methodical about it.
Yea, they were all capable of some bad stuff.
Some tribes were doing it to each other. Some were peaceful. Either way, it doesn’t make the massacre we dished out any less heinous. The way you put it, it almost seems like you are defending what we did to the natives. As in, “Hey, everyone was doing it, we just did it better, and so we deserved to win!”
The way I see it, stolen property is stolen property even if it is legitimately resold. I mean, if you bought a ‘used’ bike on the street for $20, and then the real owner showed up with proof of ownership, you’d be out $20 and he’d have his bike back, right? Or would you keep it and say, ‘tough break?’
*hides purchased bike*
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Here’s the situation that happened to me: A dog showed up at my house (well, my mom’s house) emaciated, flea bitten, completely mistrusting of people. She had been pregnant before at some point but had been fixed. I spent nearly two months getting her where she would trust me and allow me to feed and pet her, got her healthy, got rid of her fleas, and basically turned her into a happy healthy dog. She wouldnt’ go near men, but she was extremely friendly to my sister, my mom, and me, and was very protective. A year after she showed up, I got a call from a man down the dirt road who raised cow dogs (she was some type of Catahoula hound), saying that he knew I had his dog, and he wanted her back. Since it was obvious that she had been abused before she showed up (as evidenced by her hatred of men and skittish nature), I told him he could kiss my ass, she was my dog now.
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I guess what I’m trying to say is that posession is 9/10ths of the law, and if you didn’t know it was a stolen bike, or otherwise didn’t think about checking, I’d say the guy is out his bike. Absent legal action, anyway.
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I’m not saying that to excuse whatever we visited on the Native Americans, I’m just saying that I don’t agree with the metaphor. And I’m kind of in agreement with ILPB on this one…..they did it to each other, we just had better weapons and were more organized. It’s the way of life, however sucky that may be. History is written by those with bigger guns.
Meh, Froo, I think his point is that the bike isn’t sentient and not living- so it can’t really be abused. However, once you buy the bike for a suspiciously low price, wouldn’t you give it back to a poor guy that’s been stolen from by someone you associated with without even knowing he was a thief?
Keeping stolen goods is still illegal, Froo, and there’s a reason there are laws against it. Keeping a dog for humanitarian causes, while admirable of you, isn’t really a compatible example because a bike isn’t alive, and is most likely worth plenty more money than you bought it for (in Seth’s example)- plus you didn’t get the dog from a guy who stole it, you took it in out of kindness- I think I’d do the same for the dog, but I’m a man (so unless it was afraid of women, it wouldn’t work) but also notify the local animal protection or legal authorities of the man’s activities.
Using your reasoning, Native Americans have a legitimate case for reclaiming the continent since they were better stewards of the land than European people have been.
My reasoning isn’t that I was doing it better, necessarily, but that I was doing it at all. The guy lost his rights in a possession war..
Froo, the thing is that the dog would more likely be fine on it’s own rather than with him as the owner- because it sounds like that guy was running some sort of puppy mill. However, the Native Americans weren’t running America like a puppy mill
they wanted to protect the land, the animal species they came across, and the world around them. Now that I think about it..
Wouldn’t we be the ones running the caged-innocent animal operation, of the two? I mean, we build huge cities of cement on top of the land, farm until there’s no topsoil left (in some places) and generally construct permanent residences OVER the habitat of other animals, potentially suppressing the Earth under all the cement and huge buildings.
Let me shoot it to you another way…..
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Who did the Native Americans take their land from? There have been land shifts since the beginning of time, and it’s not going to stop now. I’m not trying to argue that it’s moral or right to do it, just that it happens, and us complaining about something that happened over 300 years ago isn’t going to change the fact that it happened. Reparations aren’t going to change the fact that it happened, nor will they make it better.
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And I challenge your assertion that the Indians were only wanting to be stewards of the land. Some of the tribes raised crops, some raised animals to feed themselves, and some stole from the others to feed and clothe themselves. They were and are as diverse as any other culture on the planet. Giving anyone a blanket pass just because a few of them were “environmentalists” is just silly.
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The Indians lost their land in a battle. It’s been happening for centuries. Are you going to condemn every single battle that’s happened since the beginning of time just because you don’t agree with this one?
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And the guy wasn’t running a puppy mill, he was trying to beat some cow sense into this dog, since she didn’t have any.
Yes, but Froo, the point isn’t whether they raised animals or crops, it’s the idea of over-farming. And I agree that reparations aren’t going to make it right/better, but I am annoyed at the fact that Europeans came and treated people less advanced than they were kind of like sh*t, by invading their land, treating their people brutally, and continuing some of the racism straight into the twentieth century.
That said, Froo, I personally wouldn’t argue that they only wanted to be stewards of the land, but that saying in essence, “some of them were brutal, so it was all right that they got exterminated” is definitely NOT something I’m for. And there have been slaves, cruelty, racism, etc, between humans for… Probably since societies began to form, but that doesn’t change the fact that I’m ashamed of what my ancestors on this continent did to other people, especially ones that couldn’t really put up a fair fight.
And Froo, I’d say that most Indian tribes were MUCH more respectful of the world around them than the Europeans that killed them, and that just because some of them stole from others, raised animals or grew crops- that doesn’t mean they weren’t more respectful of the land than we were.
And about the puppy thing, it doesn’t change the fact that he was actively abusing her while the Indians respected the land and tried, at least, to care for the land somewhat.
If we all sat back and were ashamed of what our ancestors did to the point that we were afraid to do anything else, nothing would get done. There comes a point where people have to move on, because nothing can be done about what happened.
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As far as being stewards of the land and that’s what made them better than us, will you also place that on the shoulders of any other society that has overfarmed or done what you’re accusing our culture of doing? China, say? India, which has too many people for the land and food it has?
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At this point we are not actively abusing anyone or committing genocide in order to get land. We are the only nation to give back conquored territory and keep what we originally had. At what point have we absolved ourselves of past injustice toward people? When we live like the little starving African kids you see in the Sally Stringer commercials so we know what it feels like? I have no clue what that would accomplish, nor do I think it’s constructive, helpful, or particularly smart to flagellate ourselves over something our ancestors did.
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Also, about being stewards of the land: no culture in history, including ours, has used up what is causing us to be fed and clothed. I hear people use the argument that the timber companies are clearcutting forests to use for paper and such. Right. And they’re also replanting them just as fast with fast growing trees. You’re acting as though we’re deliberately strip-mining the planet just because we can. It’s misleading, and it’s wrong. The Indians didn’t use as many resources as we do now because THERE WEREN’T AS MANY OF THEM. They didn’t have to worry about things like land conservation because a great number of them were nomadic, moving about as they used up the land around them. They let that land grow back, and went back to it eventually. We dont’ have that luxury because there are just too damn many people in urban areas. We aren’t overpopulated in the grand sense of the word, but we’re using what we can where we can in order to survive. I’m sure if it came down to it we could cram a few more people into West Texas and Arizona, but I’m not sure if they’d like it.
As for Europeans taking over the Western Hemisphere, there is pretty good agreement that the Northern American continent was pretty seriously de-populated by European disease (to which the Native Americans had no natural resistance) by the time that European settlers got there. This isn’t to say that the Europeans were ‘at fault’, but it certainly had an impact on the ability of the Native Americans to defend their land! (link to interesting discussion by some historians).
Won’t somebody think of the Indians…!!11elebenty!!
Seriously, Tyler, c’mon now. Everybody’s had an ancestor who has been oppressed. If I can track it through my family tree, can I get paid? Which I can…
You’ve got a brain. Use it.
OT: If I can track my ancestors to the Mayflower, does that entitle me to a portion of the profits from the moving company of the same name?
You probably can’t track yourself back to the Mayflower because the passenger list is being held hostage by the Mayflower society and those uppity b*tches guard that thing like it’s the holy grail.
@ Froo:
“no culture in history, including ours, has used up what is causing us to be fed and clothed.”
I’d suggest you read Jared Diamond’s “Collapse: How Societies Choose or Fail to Succeed” before making such a blanket statement.
I also think, maybe, that you don’t know of any cultures that failed that way because (ahem) they aren’t around to be object lessons any more.
Not to bash you on your other points, some of which I agree with and some I don’t.
{link}
@ Jane… LOL! Like DARs, then…
Even worse! I could join the DAR (I have a cousin who’s pretty active) but they’re a bunch of boring old ladies. Where’s the fun in that?
being a mayflower desendent ain’t all that great, but the ship manifest is open to research and to join all you have to do is provide an unbroken line from yourself back to the mayflower – not that hard to do: birth records, census records, baptism & death records and a bit of $$ is all it takes. and census records are public information up to 1920 & 1930 will be available in a few more years.
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@ jane – agree with you on the dar (i could belong to, but i’m not sure i want to associate with any group that would have me as a member) but on the other hand, if younger blood doesn’t join up, the dar will always be nothing more than a group of snooty boring old women… see if you can join the daughters of the confederacy – as long as you can stay away from the branches that are ‘cover’ for the klan, the gatherings are a blast
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this whole discussion reminds me of an old joke:
a native american elder was being interviewed by the local media and was asked what they called america before the white man.
the elder replied, ‘ours.’
Yeah, Mark, people look up the fall of Easter Island.
Yes everyone did do it the whole conquest thing. Its not right to take and plunder but what the europeans did was nothing different from the any other empire that ever existed. When you look into history you can’t look at it with modern eyes. Just be glad that we live in a time when people actually think its wrong to make people suffer like that than say its for the glory of whatevs. Do you think that the countries you see today were not a result of people moving and conquering? Even the South Americans had empires one reason why the spanish won was because the peasants hated the nobility and helped them.
It doesn’t matter what they were doing before. It was their land. That’s it.
Tell you what. Let’s make it fair. You go ahead and give the land you currently own to the closest Native American you can find, and we’ll call it even.
You couldn’t give it to them, anyway, that’s the problem. The Indians we took the land from didn’t believe in the “ownership” of land, and therefore he would have to bring an Indian to his house and tell him that since he was leaving and not selling the land, that the Indian or his friends needn’t follow the laws of “private property” on that area- so Froo, your idea of making it fair shouldn’t have worked. They didn’t want the land, they just wanted to live off it together and respect it.
You’re using a broad brush to justify yourself. It doesn’t work in this case either, as no tribe was the same.
True, but the fact that most Native American tribes would refuse the idea that they were being “given” the land like it was something to be owned is my point. Not that all of them would, sorry for the they, but really, Froo. I apologize for using a broad brush, but there are always dissenting people from the majority, even if it’s a good cause, who sometimes act like jerks, and I’m trying to say that with the old tribes, neither of your ideas would really work
*channels EC*
Fu(king hippies.
so what’s wrong with being a fu(king hippy? so is being a celibate hippy better? or is it being a fu(king skinny that’s better?
please enlighten me because i’m all confused…
And you just negated your own argument. If it was never theirs to begin with because they didn’t own it, why should we feel bad for taking it?
You know that’s not valid, Froo. Just because they don’t believe in the concept of ownership of the land doesn’t mean that we have the right to kick them around, off their natural habitat, and bully people less advanced in weaponry and numbers than we were back then.
We may not have “taken” the land from them in the legal sense, but we did take THEM from where they had every right to be.
And why do we have any less right to be here than they? We have every right to be here, and shouldn’t (as I said earlier) feel guilty because our grandpappys of old did some bad things. Everyone has a pirate in their family tree. Everyone has a murderer, and a hooker, and God knows what else. You’re speaking in general terms about the Indians, speaking in specific terms about Americans, and doing both a disservice.
I’m not saying we should feel guilty, but that we shouldn’t feel like we were justified in doing it, either. Anyway, we have as much right to be here as they do, but the thing is, we took them from their land and took it for “ourselves”, rather than working peacefully with them. That’s my problem. And since when did I talk about Americans in specific terms?
Anyway, let’s just say this- just because I choose not to piss all over my cave to mark my ownership, I don’t think that means you should come into my cave and beat me up when I’m smaller, especially if there’s room enough for the both of us.
In essence, it’s not just the old grandpappys, etc, that I’m ashamed of, it’s human nature and the way we act as a species sometimes. Witch hunts, mob mentalities, etc, I think we should be smart enough to move past that, and hope that one day, we are. But until then, I don’t feel guilty. I feel sad that it has happened, but I don’t feel guilty for what my family tree has done. If I thought that way, I’d be overburdened by my father alone.
I don’t think we should feel guilty, either. I think we should be very very very very careful about what we learn from this period of history. Do we just write the history as “winners” or do we look at what we did and resolve to be smarter next time.
I like your cave analogy, Tyler. I’ll probably steal it.
What?
Is the what about my father comment?
Cause if so, let’s just say he has big callouses over the top of his knuckles for a reason. One tough, angry SOB some days.
And I liked the cave analogy too. Now, who wants to come lay down in my cave?
Nesting fail again….
@tyler/igor:
Sorry to hear that about the calloused knuckles. I hope you are okay. I understand about not owning the ugliness of our families – there is some really vile bigotry swinging around in the branches of my tree.
No, the “what” was my smart-assed attempt to be funny about stealing. It seemed to wrap up the conversation in a nice, neat bow!
Oh, okay
And hey, I didn’t mention that he beat me specifically
He has before, but mostly it’s from beating the crap out of other people when he was between 15 and 30
sweet. so if we can forget about what we did to indigenous people and all the horrible things that occurred, we can forget about slavery too…right? at least by your logic.
I’ll bite. Because of the WAY it was taken?
People have been fighting for millennia over the way war is waged; teh only way to keep the defeated people from having long, festering memories of injustices and indignities suffered at the hands of their conquerors is to annihilate them. We came close.
History has always been written by the winners, and the winners are never winners all the time. There is oppression everywhere, why are we feeling guilty about this one time?
Why shouldn’t we?
The fact that everyone else does it doesn’t make it all right, and we should be LEARNING from our mistakes, not repeating them. That’s what we should worry about.
Learning from your mistakes =/= feeling guilty about something you yourself never did. There is a way to take a jaded eye to the past as you make it clear it will never happen again. Feeling guilty about things you can’t control and had nothing to do with just causes ulcers.
…
I already stated that somewhere else, Froo.
We shouldn’t feel guilty, but we shouldn’t feel justified, like the arguments you’ve made.
The unwise man
is awake all night
worries over and again.
When morning rises
he is restless still,
his burden as before.
- The Havamal
And I’m not justifying anything. I’m saying we can’t cry over spilled milk.
“And you just negated your own argument. If it was never theirs to begin with because they didn’t own it, why should we feel bad for taking it?”
We may not cry over spilled milk, but we shouldn’t feel that the spilling in the first thing wasn’t bad.
So how long are you going to feel bad for that milk you spilled? Will you give the cow a little extra food to make up for it? Will you give the cow something special because you screwed something up? No, you pick up the rock you tripped over, move it, and dont’ spill any more damn milk. Crying about the milk you spilled 300 years later isn’t doing anyone any good.
Christ, Froo. Nowhere did I say that we should FEEL BAD in that post, I said we shouldn’t feel that it WASN’T bad. Which was what the argument in quotes sounded a HELL of a lot like.
You’re arguing for continued guilt. I’m arguing against it. That’s where the conflict lies. In no way do I feel that what was done was in any way right.
I’m arguing for acknowledging it was wrong, not trying to justify it in the first place by saying things that boil down to “Well, they didn’t claim to own it, so why SHOULDN’T we take it?”
Acknowledging our ancestors have done something wrong =/= feeling bad for them doing it.
Ok, now we have a consensus and can agree on something
It was sounding awfully like you were trying to argue for continued guilt.
It’s continuing to happen. Not in the ridiculousness that it was in the past, but it’s still happening.
Look up the island of Guam, it’s owned by the U.S but is exploited as a military base.
The indigenous people are suffering from high toxicity in the air and water from aicraft fuel and other things you would find in military territory.
On top of that, while the people were granted citizenship about 50 years ago, their rights are very limited, and basically only have the right to join the military.
Yeah, it’s not genocide, but it’s exploitation.
Of course history is wriiten by the winners. They are still alive.
Nesting is failing.
@froo: don’t you mean spilled blood? You keep side stepping the atrocity of what happened to a people. Yes, it happens all the time; Hutus and Tutsis, just as a contemporary example. It never makes it right.
I never said it was right. I’ve never once argued that. My argument is that crying about it and trying to make people feel guilty for things their ancestors did is an exercize in futility, and helps no one. There is nothing we can do at this point to make it right what was done, so the most we can do is move on. I believe that there have been more appologies than you can shake a stick at for the attrocities committed against the Indians. When will I hear one from the Spanish, or the English, or the Russians, or the Vikings, or anyone else who came across whatever land mass or ocean it took to get to the western world to take their little piece? What else can we do?
The world is run by those who show up.
What does that even mean?
@froo:
There is nothing we can do about it now, that is true. But why is it wrong to be horrified about it? Why is it wrong to hold up atrocity – wherever or whenever it happens – and determine to learn a different way of being? We do terrible things to one another all the time; why does it have to be that way?
It means you won’t be heard if you’re not present.
“Also, about being stewards of the land: no culture in history, including ours, has used up what is causing us to be fed and clothed.”
Have you ever heard of Easter Island???
Is that where the bunnies and eggs hide all year waiting for Easter?
Um, because of the means which were taken by the US GOVERNMENT to get the Native peoples off the land they wanted. They were targeted for genocide, their children were stolen to be raised in bording schools to “civilize” them, they were moved TIME AND AGAIN so that White settlers could have the land, the treaties the government made with the various peoples (thus recognizing them as SOVERIGN NATIONS) were violated time and again … Should I go ON? If the US treated oh, say England or Japan or Germany or Russia with the same tactics there would be a world-wide anger over what happened. The Native peoples suffered a HOLOCAUST way before the famous one that killed Jews, Gypsies and other ‘reviled” peoples in Nazi Germany.
Nice one froofrou. I think the Indians that came across from Asia and settled the North American continent stole the land from the animals, who were better stewards to the land than the indians.
Who stole it from the insects, who were a better steward of the land than the animals…
Who stole it from the plants… But those cat-tails kept choking up the waterways, so the fish were glad that the insects took over!
*goddamn plants stole my land*
turk a dur!!
THE NATIVE AMERICANS STOLE THE LAND FROM THE DINOSAURS!!!!!! WAKE UP SHEEPLE!!
That was pretty convincing, right?
THE DINOSAURS STOLE THE LAND FROM THE FISH- oh, wait..
Yeah that’s my point too. What happened to the Indians sucks. Hard. But good luck giving them their continent back. Where the hell are we supposed to go? Europe? I don’t think so. This goes under “well it’s too late to do anything now.”
Stop trying to take my liberal card. I’m not giving it up.
So dew, does that mean you support Israel’s right to the land. Or perhaps we could give the Isle of Britain back to the Anglo-Saxons. Or perhaps Norhtern Ireland should join Ireland. Hey maybe the Scotts should become their own country as well. Do you really believe that all victors in wars should return their land?
So that’s an excuse to go in and make more fighting? That sounds about as good as our excuse for invading Iraq.
Not all invasions are violent.
Some utilize ninjas.
Ninjas are violent. They’re just quiet about it.
And they’re FAST.
Goddamn marsupial ninjas!
They carry their young in pockets?
No, that’s a ninjoey.
-Sigh-
Pitty, please go to sleep?
zzzzzzzz
Oh come on! Ninjoey was awesome!
Yeah, I gotta remember that one.
Eh, just a roo-tine pun. But thanks for roo-ting for me.
Actually, I’m pretty sure they are.
I invaded the wife the other night. No violence involved. Well apart from a gentle spanking. But I was bad, I deserved it.
I am so sad you are married….we would get along well
I am so sad that you are married…you an I would get along quite well.
I’d like a cite for the peaceful, non-violent invasion you speak of…
The city I lie in is currently invaded by football players ages 11-19. It’s relatively free from violence, apart from possibly on the football field.
(Gothia Cup)
live*
Though I lie in it too, of course.
Lying is wrong. You should tell the truth more.
No, no, bad Eric. Danbala’s lying with me. In the biblical sense.
Once again, you wish, kid.
Sure, check the link.
You down with OBP?
Yeah, you know me!
Who’s down with OBP?
“Oregon Public Broadcasting” FTW!
Your dyslexia is showing.
The mental image of the those four guys saying that… about made me DIE.
so pertinent!
Just full of win. I can not wait to see the flame wars on this picture.
Ahahahahaha! It’s so funny ’cause it’s true!
chief diamond philips?
this is stolen from a T-shirt
yeah, i’ve seen that pic on tshirts that say something like “Homeland Security: Keeping out terrorists since 1492″
My dad owns that t-shirt.
Best lol evar.
Should have fought harder!!!
They were way too divided, if they had all joined together the settlers would have had a much harder time getting settled.
Also, they did fight very very hard, a small amount of Dineh (including the ones in this photo I believe, Geronimo to the far right) eluded the entire US Calvary for a number of years and were a great embarrassment to them.
Thank you for actually identifying the people in the picture! “Native Americans” just wasn’t doing it for me.
Sure, they are Apache, or Dineh (so are Navajos called Dineh) and I think one of them is Naiche who is the son of Cochise. He was actually the leader, not Geronimo. Geronimo was a war shaman or something like that…
What’s really sad is how Geronimo ended up..
I Will Fight No More Forever
Surrender Speech by Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce
I am tired of fighting. Our chiefs are killed. Looking Glass is dead. Toohulhulsote is dead. The old men are all dead. It is the young men who say yes or no. He who led the young men is dead.
It is cold and we have no blankets. The little children are freezing to death. My people, some of them, have run away to the hills and have no blankets, no food. No one knows where they are–perhaps freezing to death. I want to have time to look for my children and see how many I can find. Maybe I shall find them among the dead.
Hear me, my chiefs. I am tired. My heart is sick and sad. From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever.
The saddest surrender speech ever…
He died of old age imprisoned in Oklahoma. Early in his life he had a vision that no bullet would ever harm him which turned out to be true! His dying request was to be buried in Arizona were he used to roam and sadly it was denied.
Couldn’t that request still be honored? It seems to me like the Catholic church digs up and re-inters saints all the time!
But wouldn’t we have to change what we yell when we fall if he was re-interred by the Catholic Church as a saint?
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/deliberate obtuseness to be silly
I think it was Hot Shots! or Hot Shots! Part Deux; when they are all jumping out of a plane and 2 or 3 guys in succession yell “Geronimo!”, then a Native American dude jumps and says “Me!”
*pants pant* stupid run on sentence.
Hehehe, best movies (almost) EVAR.
It could be done now, but the tribals that live and control things in Oklahoma don’t actually want it done, from what I hear.
my grapevine is leaning the other way, they are trying to get his body back but the military won’t allow it to be dis-interred from his gravesite at fort sill, ok; plus there was a lawsuit brought against the skull & bones society at yale for the recovery of geronimo’s skull. which was denied since the lawyers for the skull & bones society said that their own documents from 1918 were fabricated, then they offered the skull of a 10yo child instead of proving they didn’t have geronimo’s skull. the most interesting part of this is that preston bush was accused of being one of the men who stole geronimo’s skull…he was a student at yale at the right time period…
Eh. I’m still not a big fan of preachy LOLs. Why can’t they just be funny?
that’s Bush’s fault
You know, it’s sick that whitey took over the entire country by force from the natives, but it’s too late to do anything about it now. I feel bad for the Native Americans (my wife’s grandmother is pure Choctaw), but what are we supposed to do about it now? That was 300 years ago! It’d be kinda hard to give them their land back now.
*sigh* Why do I have a feeling I’m going to regret saying that?
because the care trolls are going to be piiiiiiiiiiissed at you.
p.s. my sister in law is 1/8 oklahoma cherokee. which makes my niece and nephew both qualify as indian and have indian nation IDs and have access to free indian healthcare. and my brother teaches on the navajo rez in arizona.
My dad was a half-breed Blackfoot. What do I qualify for? I never got anything besides the whole “no hair on my chest” thing. I had to build up my pecs and biceps so the other hairy guys wouldn’t beat me down in the locker room. *sigh* Then I got a reputation as “that big indian dude” as in “don’t mess with that big indian dude. He’ll fu(k you up!” Maybe I should let my hair grow again and start wearing braids…chicks used to dig that.
if you’ve actually got documented indian blood you qualify for LOTS of things. there are a few tax deals. you get scholarships like you wouldn’t believe for school. if you’re near an indian hospital (basically if you live in UT, AZ or NM) you get free healthcare. not to mention if you live on the rez, the po-po can’t get you because they have no jurisdiction there… however, the rez cops aren’t always a better option. they’re usually much harsher about things.
oh, and i can’t forget… you get to eat frybread. lots and lots of frybread. i wish i had frybread right now. that shit is so yummy.
oh and if you’ve got the nice shiny black hair… definitely do the braids. it’s always a combination of sexy and intimidating.
… I can get really tan. If I spend all day in the son and use my black hair for that, will I lose my virginity?
In this case the son loses his virginity, no?
In the sun* sorry, that was fail typing. Quick-joke comment, and you know it
Apologies for the error!
Of course I know it silly one
I mean, a quick in-out will do the trick! No need to spend all day in there or any thing …
-Bangs head against keys slowly, hoping for a quick death-
I know, I know. I blame it on jet lag. Just back from holidays. Baaackawork.
I have a gallon of Indian blood in my freezer… hmmm… perhaps I’ve said too much…
Don’t forget the peyote!
I would totally man-hit that. (As in, invite you to my house and hang out.)
you are lucky you are not a hairy gorrila you probably wont bald either. I have never seen a bald native before.
My wife has never wanted to get her Indian card. She doesn’t believe in taking something she doesn’t feel she’s earned and since she doesn’t really consider herself an Indian she doesn’t really feel like bothering with it. Not to mention the fact that she can’t stand that entire side of her family.
my SIL uses hers because she was raised rather poor and it allowed her free healthcare. as my brother is a teacher and my SIL is a housewife with 2 kids now… they’re dirt poor and rely on the indian system for healthcare again.
she doesn’t use it for other stuff… but it comes in mighty handy when the kids are sick. her mother (who is the one who has the cherokee heritage) is legitimately bipolar (and 100% unmedicated) and could use her indian healthcare to get moved into a facility but she refuses claiming that she’s not bipolar.
my niece and nephew have their indian IDs because at this point it allows them the healthcare but later on if they chose to do it they could move to the cherokee reservation and take up camp. my SIL wanted to allow them that choice later on down the line, and to have that choice they had to get the IDs at birth.
Well…the United States could honor some of those treaties they agreed to.
Hell it’s only ben 140 years since Slavery and there’s still no resitution. Besides the Native Americans have casinos now!!!
There shouldn’t be any. Ever. It’s totally ridiculous.
Casinos or restitution?
Restitution. Sorry.
Casinos are sucking vortexes or poverty, but I just stay away with my bad-gambling self…
Never as exciting or glamorous as they make them look on the commercials, that’s for sure!
Have you been to the casinos in CT? They are awesome.
Deep thought I was being sarcastic. Not about the Casinos, the ones in CT are AWESOME… I’ll take me some of their fire water!!! And the female Native Americans they have working there, I wish I was Lewis or Clark!!!
I think it’s funny that the Texas indians gave up their casino rights for other stuff. I wonder how that’s working out for them…
OOPS!!! What’d they get cigarettes?
I’m doing my best to find out what they got in return, but I believe it was along the lines of “we get land, you leave us the fu(k alone, and we will give up rights to have casinos. Oh, and we want special protections and such.” Or something like that. I just know that they gave up their rights to it way back in the day, and I’m sure have regretted it ever since.
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King of the Hill did an episode about John Redcorn building a casino on his land and getting shut down. It was pretty funny.
Were the native americans republicans or democrats?
They were libertarians.
Small Gov’t, they didn’t care what you did in your bedroom, or what you smoked, believed gun (bow)control meant hitting your target.
They didn’t believe you could own land though.
Clearly they were the Green party. Believed in preserving the land for future generations. Reduced, reused, and recycled.
So they were Greens and Libertarians at the same time? My head asplode….
Is that Libergreens? Or Greenatarians?
I like Libergreens. It just rolls off the tongue better.
Yet, it also sounds like something I’d put in my salad.
Salad snob.
How much more of a liberal would I be if I told you that I put feta cheese in my salad as well?
You dirty Commie!!! *runs off to take a shower*
*yells after froo* And I prefer a Balsamic vinaigrette too!
AAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaa……………..!!!!!!!!!
In all seriousness, I’m made fun of for my salads. I like iceberg lettuce, cheese, croutons (the garlic and cheese ones, thanks), Thousand Island dressing, and raisins. The raisins always get me weird looks. Oh, and I like hard boiled eggs and sliced ham (deli style) on it when I can get them. And I’ve been known to eat Feta cheese in a pinch.
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Dammit dammit dammit, I’ve got to turn in my ConservoCard now, don’t I?
Today salad, tomorrow the world! (although, that might be Bunnicula)
No, the iceberg lettuce saved you, I think.
I try not to muddy up the taste of the Thousand Island dressing (or Sun Dried Tomato, yum!!!) with too much weird greenery, hehe. My husband and I tend to go for the epic “salad as a meal” here and there. If you do it right, you’ll be full for days……
The Celery Stalks at Midnight.
What about the arugula?
I love that word. Aroooooooooogahlaaaaaaaaaah……it just rolls off the tongue so pleasingly….
Libergreen? Is that anything like Wintergreen? And are the Greenatarians anything like the Rotarians? (sorry, bad joke, here’s some nice pecan brownies to make up for it)
Um, ‘Native Americans’ were not a monolithic culture and your assertions are simply generalities with no basis in historical fact. Some tribes cared very much what you did in the bedroom. Some had very big, very intrusive government. Some of them did not permit commoners to own weapons. They did not all ride around hunting buffalo and sleeping in tepees, you know.
I read an article that the early women’s rights got its start from the European women, like Elizabeth Cady Stanton, observing that the Iroquois women had more rights. Iroquois women chose the new chieftains, and Iroquois womenfolk would punish any male who hit or otherwise physically abused his spouse–by making him to the same to a metal form which had been heated to red-hot in a fire.
The Iroquois I believe had the man as head of the household. The plains nations were more likely to have the tent belong to the women (with kicking-out-the-man rights).
Pocahontas was a princess and her tribe was nice.
Sourse….Disney
ROFLMAO! Pokie was sold into slavery by her own peeps!
Well she was at least hot looking.
Again Source…Disney
And she was magic! How else could she learn to speak English just by having the breeze blow through her hair?
There was a Babel Fish that disguised itself as a bunch of leaves?
And how else could she score Mel Gibson?
She must’ve tortured him.
“Ye can torture me all ye want, but you’ll not get the information out of me!”
Clearly you didn’t see Pocahontas II: Voyage to a New World. She ends up with Billy Zane.
Did he shoot a boat in that one too?
I think he was painted as the, “I’m too much the adventurer and can’t settle down with you honey” type.
That unimaginable bastard.
Communists: Everyone was provided for as per their needs.
Except the chief was the one that gave the most away, not the one that took the most from everyone else… Hmmm.
No one said they were the bad kind of communist. The communism you’re thinking of is the negative examples you’ve seen, while ILPB would actually be right- that’s the ideal form of communism.
Didn’t know there was a good kind…
Then you obviously haven’t done enough research.
Communism is a political idea, one that is supposed to envision the “perfect society”- where everyone is fed and gets enough of what they need.
Communism hasn’t ever been seen in working practice.
If you don’t know that, you need to do some research- it’s greed and selfishness that destroys a system where no one person is supposed to be “worth” more than another.
Once again, “Communism” where the leader or higher-ups get more than anyone else isn’t communism at all.
Psttt… Seth- I’ve seen you arguing this point before, I think, and need someone to check this bit over and make sure I’ve not said anything overtly idiotic.
“Communism hasn’t ever been seen in working practice.” —
On the other hand Capitalism works pretty good most places.
A mixed economy works, you mean p
Trickle down policies have had about as much fail as soviet style communism.
No, not anywhere near the fail of Soviet style communism. I would say, we just have ups and downs. It’s normal.
Tell that to the impoverished of our nation. And don’t you dare tell them pull themselves up by their boot straps. I’ll kick your ass. Nothing personal.
The impoverished of our nation have higher standards of living than a large portion of the rest of the world, and higher than almost all the poor of the world. Get serious.
Is that meant to be a justification of “let the poor get on with it”?
Besides, that’s actually not entirely true i’m afraid. Those at the bottom of unequal societies are far more likely to suffer from depression, alcoholism, drug abuse and other mental health problems aswell as have lower life expectancies than those of an equivalent wealth in poorer yet more equal countries.
It is the inequality that is the soul-crushing aspect of poverty, not the material inadequacy. Hell, even the folks at the bottom in British society live a damn sight longer than those at the bottom of America’s, and it’s the second most unequal. Guess which country is the most unequal…
Usually it’s the alcoholism and drug abuse that causes the depression, lower life expectancies and lack of wealth. Not the other way around. Also, we have an equal society here in the US, the most equal in the world. We all have the same opportunities if not the same abilities, some may have an easier path but that is the way of the world and non of the governments business.
I see, well you tell me how Communism has helped ANY impoverished of ANY nation, or I’ll kick YOUR ass!
Nothing personal. Actually I won’t, I’m non violent.
Ahhh…what about Star Trek?
BWAHAHAHAHA!!! Yeah! What ABOUT Star Trek!
Yeah, because communism was created to be nothing but pure evil, right? Communism is a good idea that sadly may never be practical in modern society due to the inevitability of greed and corruption.
No, communism is not and never has been a “good idea.” Not just because of the fact that it doesn’t work – it can be a good idea and not work, though that’s pretty esoteric a point – but it’s a bad idea even if it worked perfectly. There is nothing whatever noble about forcibly taking from people that which they have produced. Nothing. There is nothing noble, nothing free, in an idea that abolished all human ingenuity and liberty – it is the epitome of an evil idea from inception to implementation and that is WHY it will never and can never work. How sick that people think as you do about such an evil thing.
If everyone agrees to be commies and spread around what they earn so everyone has enough.. You aren’t forcing anyone to do anything. Hence the “may never be practical in modern society due to the inevitability of greed and corruption.”
No one wants to share what they’ve earned for the good of society, it’s more important to possess and have things that are “ours”. Screw everyone else. I think that’s called “greed”, and you are clearly one of the greedy. Shame on you Anniee.
Shame on YOU for advocating thievery off the backs, sweat, blood and tears of OTHERS. I would love to sit back a little bit and let someone pay my way only I have something you lack – honor and integrity, which tells me I must earn my own keep or do without. Then I still have to pay for layabouts and thieves.
By the way, you’re more than free to form voluntary communes – in this country under this constitution all men are created EQUAL and FREE; free to earn and produce and dream and become more than they were in the first place, if they care to try and are able. That is something your precious communism steals from EVERYONE – their dignity, their liberty, their individuality – no, you can stuff your communism and its evil ideology straight up your ass so far that you choke on it. If you want to do it without force then do it with the people who are WILLING to do it; you’ll always need gulags otherwise. Funny how they’ve always needed gulags, even when the entire economic system of it collapses (as it must do – if you knew anything about economics you’d know that) and everyone is equally poor and miserable. I wonder how in hell it’s about greed when it’s just some poor peasant who wants to grow a garden so they don’t starve in the winter…yet that’s what it ends up being. LINK to the decline and fall of the Soviet Union by one of Gorbachev’s and prior regime’s economists. When you’re done, tell me how that peasant who wanted to raise and sell his pig to earn money was GREEDY, you swine.
I’ll keep my liberty and my equality, thank you very much.
By the way, there is not now and never has been anything barring private charity. It’s how hospitals and orphanages and drives against hunger started and prospered BEFORE government took over the private sector. Americans are the most generous people in the world, or they always have been – shame on YOU for calling them otherwise because they don’t pay your way to the opera at the expense of their daily bread. Pffft.
Sorry, link this time.
Psstt- Anniee- She never said anything about Americans… The fact that you assumed that’s what she meant is a little bit detrimental to your argument…
BWAHAHAHAHA Oh Anniee you make me laugh. Thanks for pointing out how unwilling you are to help out to make sure there’s enough to go around for everyone.
The caps really made my day. Shame on ME, for sure. I’m teh ebil for wanting there to be enough for everyone, and for everyone to want there to be enough for everyone. I’m so ebil! I want people to be altruistic!! I SHOULD BURN IN HELL!!! *guffaw*
You and Justa, can’t stop putting words in my mouth. I never said anything about forcing anyone to do anything. I just said if everyone agrees to it, then it’s not forcing anyone. It steals nothing from no one if everyone is agreeable to the idea.
But I guess you can’t see through your self righteous frothing at the mouth enough to actually comprehend what I said.
The Soviets forced communism on their people. I understand that. I don’t think it should be forced on anyone. But it’s a good idea, if everyone were to agree to it.
Clearly, though, you are too greedy to want everyone to have an equal share of the pie. Oh Anniee, you are a great amusement. All you did was prove how crappy you are and how little you value people over goods.
Oink oink.
That’s not what she’s saying at all. But the government should not be allowed to force you at the point of a gun to do it, in the way they see fit. First of all, I give money to charities on a regular basis, charities I believe in. It’s more efficient to allow people to give on their own. Government is inefficient.
Shame on you, Charro, for daring to breathe our free capitalist air! Begone, you commie pig! FOR SHAME!!
Froodenrat, couldn’t help yourself, could you? You were so PAST f*cking with me, but…nope. I notice it happens especially when I’m really genuinely right about something major – that’s when you really start with the little nippy puppy piddles, because somehow you really get annoyed when I hit the real nerves, the real heart of the matters at hand. Why is that? Never mind, I don’t really want to know, but it’s a true observation nonetheless. Now if you’ll go back, you’ll see that it was your dear little commie friend who said SHAME ON YOU first, to me, and I was turning it back around on her, rightly, I believe. Because it is shameful that she endorses that which is the most ignoble of all philosophies and robs the individual of his highest and most ennobling traits – his individuality, his equality, his liberty – his pursuit of happiness within that greatest of things – liberty. How she would toss that aside in favor of a failed idea that can not work even in a small scale except within a free society that produces far more than “enough”, one that brings only misery, death, and despair, is indeed shameful. And if you haven’t noticed, she’s also oinking at me because, presumably I’m a capitalist pig who doesn’t share with anyone. That is patently ludicrous knowing the amount I do give to people who are poorer than me and how many times I have been in need of charity myself – the presumption is also ridiculous that only rich people are against communism, that the poor can’t be against it for all the same reasons. I am not one of the rich, not by anyone’s standards. But I do have integrity and a work ethic, and it is obvious that charro is a slacker who just wants it all handed to her while she sits on her lazy ass. I don’t have that luxury because I don’t believe in living that way – even Paul said if a man shall not work neither shall he eat. You can bet I never asked anyone for help that I wasn’t willing to be as productive as I possibly could – charro doesn’t share a work ethic here. Do you?
@Yikes: I didn’t say the government SHOULD be allowed to. I don’t understand how that point is so hard to understand.
Sadly, I don’t see it being efficient to allow people to do it of their own free will in this day and age, because in this day and age, most people don’t do it. The efficiency of getting the goods to people that need them and away from people that don’t need them is sorely lacking.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAH Oh Anniee you are an endless source of mirth and gaiety. I wish people would be more altruistic so I can sit on my lazy ass and do nothing. *guffaw*
You are too blind to see that I am advocating an equality you don’t even dream of. Everyone is equal, everyone does equal work and everyone gets an equal share of the pie. But better than that, everyone WANTS to do this because it makes society as a whole equal. No more class struggles, just pure, simple, equality. How lazy of me.
You advocate a world where everyone clings to their precious material goods with the capitalist cry of “MINE!” in the guise of Freedoms and Liberties. You are a selfish, selfish human being who wants to be King SH!t on Turd Island. Well rule your little kingdom well Anniee!! Live in a world where there is no true equality. Bravo!!
Oink oink.
Bringing up utopia at this stage of the game is a pretty cheap shot, don’t you think? I mean, considering the ABSOLUTE impossibility of it?
I want to live with the unicorns in Spam-a-lot flouncing around with waggling weenie, but we all know that’ll never happen… so, reality, perhaps, and real solutions?
@DT: Well, no one has said that they would advocate implementation of communism, so it’s all a Utopia discussion, really.
My point being that digression to fantasy is pointless.
…damn. premature posting.
and makes charro look like that dimwitted Carolina chick.
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No, I have no work ethic either. I’m a damn commie with the rest of them.
@Deep: The entire discussion began with the fact that it’s recognized that communism “may never be practical in modern society”. It was a Utopian discussion from the start.
Maybe you should try comprehending what is actually taking place before you step in to arguments having nothing to do with you with your own “cheap shots” yes? That’s a real solution.
Bravo on the Ad Hominem however, brilliantly executed. It probably would have worked better if I had been saying “We all need to be commies now! That’s the only thing that will save us, is having Communism forced down are throats!” But alas, I was not. There are no rules saying one cannot discuss how one wishes the world to be.
I know, I’ll pull an Anniee here: YOU’RE TRYING TO QUELL MY FREEDOMS! YOU WANT TO TAKE AWAY MY FREEDOM OF SPEECH BY NOT LETTING ME SAY WHAT I WANT ON A PUBLIC FORUM!!! How dare you.
Uhm.
She’s not talking about the Soviet Union, Anniee. Theoretically, Communism would give everyone jobs, and they would get as much as they needed. It didn’t work that way in the Soviet Union, but that’s what real communism would be.
Your point makes sense, until you call Charro a swine.
Then your frothing-at-mouth factor goes WAY up.
At this point in the night I think Anniee is beyond reasoning with. Actually, that’s about normal for her. I’d move on to greener and more Dragon-Friendly pastures
But Froo, why would you take a dragon to greener pastures? Tyler will just BURNINATE everything, eventually.
Not necessarily greener, just more populated with non-crazies who won’t sling their crazy onto your dragonness
Is that the feminine form of “dragon”?
Dragonista?
BUT I AM STILL- TROGDOOOOOOOOORRRR
I will burninate your countryside, burninate your peasants, burninate your anniees (on some days), and burninate the trolls.
Could I run for king of the nerds on that platform, froo?
Sassy.
Igor, can you please extrapolate the bigger lesson here? You’re bringing up the most irrelevant and tangential issues when I’m talking about the entire CONCEPT of liberty versus tyranny and giving concrete examples of both. Try to follow along on the larger issues, would you? I really don’t need any help here.
FWIW the article is far beyond the scope of one application of communism – many were tried and it is about why they of necessity fail, along with a lot of concrete examples along the way. From an economist’s standpoint, it makes no difference whether you’re talking about Soviet Russia or any other redistributive system on a massive scale – it doesn’t work, it’s antithetical to individualism and liberty, things we are *guaranteed* here, or are supposed to be, so even if it could work (which economically it can not and never has) it would still be a Bad. Thing.
Yep. We are all guaranteed the freedom to be selfish pr!cks and hoarde our goods in our own private little kingdoms. God bless America for granting us this right.
Good thing I also have the right to wish people were more altruistic and cared enough to spread what they have around so there’s enough for everyone.
1- Would you really count on a teenager’s brain at 1 AM anyway, Annie?
And I think the problem is that we’re discussing Communism as an idea, a concept , not the way it’s been practiced. The idea is that everyone is fed, has a job, and is considered equal. I doubt that will EVER work, but that doesn’t mean it’s an evil idea. What happened in the Soviet Union was a huge failure, nor was it an appropriate example of “communism”. It didn’t follow the ideas of the concept at all. So Anniee, please, has some mercy on teh Tyler for noting that you cite an example of the Soviet Union as an example of Communism. The political philosophy behind it can’t succeed, really, because people aren’t trustworthy enough of other people, but at least cite an accurate example of what the idea of Communism is.
“We are all guaranteed the freedom to be selfish pr!cks and hoarde our goods in our own private little kingdoms. ” —
People like that live in their own special kind of hell and I feel sorry for them. The majority of Americans are not like that. If we continue to let people believe that the government will provide for all our needs, we will encourage that kind of behavior and those kinds of people. Why should I give anything to anyone at that point? Let the government take care of them!
Did I say “government”? No, I said people. PEOPLE should share what they have so everyone has enough. They should want to. But they don’t. So they hoard their goods and cry out “Why should I share when they are doing nothing! They deserve none of my goods! I EARNED it!!”
Typical human behavior. Sad.
Anniee: We tried it your way up until the 1930s. The cities were crime-ridden pestholes, and rural areas weren’t much better. Seems to me that it’s a matter of perspective. I’m sure viking gal could explain the concept of danegeld for you . Think of paying taxes as a bribe, to keep the filthy lazy layabouts on welfare from coming to your house and robbing you blind. It’s the price you pay to walk down the street without a bodyguard. (Check the recent history of Medellin and Cali in Colombia if you don’t believe me.)
Yes… It is very easy to forget that a well functioning society is extremely important for the freedoms of its individuals. What I mean by that is that, yes, it is in everyone’s interest that even the most useless of a society’s members get a reasonable life standard.
I am not going to say that people aren’t allowed to be socialistophobic, but to say that socialism and tac equals tyrranr and lack of liberty is pure nonsense to me. Perspectives are very different all over the place, I guess.
tac -> tax
Is Annie short for Ayn Rand?
Charro: The major flaw in communism, especially in an industrialized world is that not all jobs are equal; in either risk, work load, labor, or desire. Also you have the “lazy” factor come into play. Not everyone, but there are leaches in society who would love to get paid to do nothing, and if they know that no matter what they do they’ll get paid, or be provided for, then they won’t work as hard. communism is not evil, but an ideal that just can’t work in today’s practical world. It just can’t.
She’s not arguing that we should have communism, or that it works right in a practical application. She’s saying that were everyone to be of the same mind and want to do it, as opposed to it being forced down their throats, and if everything else worked like it’s supposed to on paper, Communism is actually a pretty good deal. As a raging Capitalist myself, I have to agree that socialism and communism ON PAPER look pretty nice. I know that they won’t ever, ever work, but it would be a nice thing to know that people were taken care of in a Utopian society.
I know what she was saying. I was just saying even if people “chose” communism it still wouldn’t work in a practical application. To me communism and socialism doesn’t look good to me. Looks too constricting. Looks like the government owns me, and well frankly only my wife can lay claim to that fame.
YOUR WIFE IS A COMMIE!!!
Individual wealth was irrelevant, everyone in the tribe got enough to eat, clothes to wear, and a shelter.
To be honest, I think that sounds pretty awesome.
Communism is the ideal society, it just doesn’t work in practice these days. Greed destroys the whole system…
Two words.
Infantacide. Eldercide.
That is all.
Two more reasons to return to those ways.
I’m sorry, I just wanted to say something ridiculous before some dumb pro-lifer beat me to it.
Two words: Soylent Green.
Four words: it’s made of people!
Three more words:
Blow. Me. Thanks!
Five words:
I must find it first!!!
OH BURN.
What a play! What an interception!
Check your asshole.
ooh, burn, down for the count!!!… but wait!!! im not really english/british! my relatives came much later!!! im italian-american(25%)
!!! WOOT!!
Hmph. Bloody Romans.
Whereas I’m a bloody Viking. Something like 99%, with a dash of Welsh. Got to hear about ‘those dreadful vikings’ while at a conference in Oxford.
Wake early
if you want
another man’s life or land.
No lamb
for the lazy wolf.
No battle’s won in bed.
- The Havamal
I like that the Vikings didn’t expect or require that their womenfolk be any more faithful than their menfolk. Maybe that was payment in part for the woman’s chore of having to choose who and how many would be sent out into the cold to die if food ran short?
I do love me some Viking culture.
They seemed wonderfully adapted for their conditions and what their people had to survive through, to the point where it was ingrained with their religion (Drawing blood, Valhalla, bravest warriors, you know the rest.)
Plus, they weren’t too fanatical about their religion, and were AWESOME as far as physical builds went.
I could do without the brutality and all that, but most of the time, they sound like one of the few cultures that is actually a perfect example of what a sports bar is.
You’re shitting me, right? Vikings are brutal?
Take a comparative American cultures — Native American cultures class in college if you want to know what I’m talking about.
Don’t unilaterally romanticize the natives, bud.
I think that’s the biggest problem with this entire argument. You’ve got some people who know what it was like “back in the day” because they’ve done exhaustive study, you’ve got people like me who have studied those who have done the studies, and then you’ve got others who completely romanticize a culture they know little to nothing about through movies and television. You cant’ tell me that Pocahantas was that good looking, any more than you can tell me that Jesus was a blue eyed blonde.
Froo for the analysis WIN!
I don’t know “nothing about” the Native American culture, thanks though, Froo. Never saw Pocohantas, and I didn’t learn what I have about them from TV. I never said they weren’t violent.
And I never referred to you specifically. Don’t take offense where it’s not given.
-
You are tending toward the romantic “they were here first and were noble and took care of the land and did all sorts of kewl stuff and we were mean and bullied them and were just horrible, every last man jack of us” view of how America came to be. At least in your postings for this argument.
You may not have referred to me, but you posted it replying to Deep Thought’s response to one of my posts.
That’s not what I’m trying to say, Froo.
And I DO think they were better for the land than we were back then and now. And I think it was unfair what we did. I think it was crude and violent to persecute people like that.
I never said that they weren’t violent, just that we were too.
I hesitate to think they were “better for the land”. There were simply fewer of them. They pretty much used up what they could where they were and moved to another spot. Societies change, land evolves, and no two cultures have treated teh land the same since the beginning of time.
I’m a little rusty on my history but didn’t a lot of Europeans overhunt in areas and force tribes to travel longer distances to find sources for food? I’m pretty sure I read about it in Alaska and Canada at least. And I think that Native Americans, in general, were a lot better about using all the parts of animals and not wasting then the whites.
All I really remember in school was that we made dream catchers and apparently the whites and the Native Americans were besties.
The Anasazi (cliff-dwellers) either over farmed and/or overhunted, and starved to death as a result, way before the Euro-folk got there. For that matter, the Maori supposedly ate some flightless ostrich-like thing into extinction shortly after landing on New Zealand. Humans tend to be rough on the earth. But some groups have been better than others.
Using all of the animals only applied to the ones they actually took for food. There are carvings and drawings from the period that show massive numbers of buffalo driven off cliffs and left there to rot after the tribe had been fed.
-
No one is perfect
Viking, have you ever seen the Maori war dance? The guys there are mostly HUGE, and that thing takes a LOT of energy. I don’t blame ‘em if they needed some good ol’fashioned red meat
Oh, I dont’ blame them either! I love a good steak so rare that it moos at you when you poke it with a fork! *drools*
-
But the oldie but goodie about the Indians using every part of the animal isn’t always true, any more than it’s true that every white man has a house in the Hamptons. There was a lot of waste on a rather grand scale when some of these cliff drives happened. That’s not to say that what the Indians took to eat they didn’t use every part of, but the ones they never got around to using at all just laid there to rot in a big pile at the bottom of a cliff.
-
Moo.
Go Maoris!
Did you see the “Deadliest Warrior” about Shaolin Monk and the Maori Warrior? Awesomeness a deux!!! I never realized what bad asses both of those groups were until then.
@VG – actually, there’s no consensus on why the Anasazi left the great plains, but they didn’t starve to death because human remains were not found in the dwellings. Theories about their sudden migration include a possible long period of draught or invading nomads.
@SB. Actually, there have been human remains found, with marks of cutting and burning on the bones. Which brought about a controversial theory of starvation and cannibalism. Others think the marks are a sign of warfare. I’ve been kind of following the controversy, but couldn’t find the sources I read, so I’ve linked to wikipedia on the topic.
The section on migration pretty much supports what I had previously learned in early American history, that the Anasazis migrated rather than stayed put and starved to death. There is a bit on the remains of 24 human bodies in a smaller community from the same era, but I was referring to the larger group, who disappeared rather than died where they were.
Aliens, it had to be aliens.
I’m split 50/50 between aliens or eaten by Elvis.
You have a point. I’m pretty sure Elvis was seen near by…
I think Pocahontas was only good looking in the Disney movie. One movie reviewer I read referred to her as “an aerobicized super babe”.
The nostalgia chick called her an “a-ethnic mush of unparalleled hotness.” It’s linked.
That movie is f’ed up.
Well, the vikings were a bit more straight-forward than most about keeping a historical (verbal) record of hacking off this guy’s head and that one’s leg.
Troo dat.
There’s only a titch of oral history of the natives raping and hacking the scalps off one another, as well as anyone of any other color who got in their way…
Here, it’s practically the vikings who are the natives. ;p
I’m not saying anyone was or wasn’t brutal, Deep Thought.
I’m just saying that I don’t like brutality ANYWHERE, and that there was plenty of it recorded in Viking culture.
Twas a hard-ass world, T.
You could pwn. Or be pwnd. ‘sup to you.
And yet I hear from my cousins that the Scandinavians are the least likely to be violent soccer hooligans. Instead they are ruhligans. (ruhlig = peaceful). Maybe because they don’t feel like they have to prove themselves, given the ancestry? Me, I’m USA-bred, so a bit more bloodthirsty, I think!
I would like to see statistics about the hooligan thing, ’cause we have quite a bit of trouble with that. Plenty of games have to be played without audience and such, because of violence on and around the arenas.
From what little we actually know about the Scandinavian culture/vikings/Norse mythology of the time, they at least appear to have been very pragmatical. Me like.
Hey, I know those guys!! They’re from east LA, right?
Well, obviously it didn’t go THAT well, seeing as white folk moved in and killed ‘em all…
LOL! Now imagine living on a reservation in the middle of nowhere because the didn’t get the chance to kill you….
the? no they!
psssssssssst, not just white…
Win
It’s just a matter of time before the Mexicans start bringing in smallpox infected blankets….
Try Swine flu, TB, and hepatitis.
Well, there ya go! Clever of them to update the diseases, huh?
I knew it. Those damned Canadians are teaming up with them to unleash disaster on America.
Canada’s just mad because we keep winning the Stanley Cup.
No SARS, like in South Park!!!
Did anyone else think of Warriors when they saw “border patrol”?
Oh man, I know those guys! From left to right, that’s Bob, Carl, Ziggy (don’t ask why..), and Gerry. What a great bunch they were, it was always party time on Friday..
Oooooh, I heard about Ziggy. What a prankster, that guy! How’d he get the horse on the roof, that’s what I always wanted to know.
Aww…. tshirthell.com discontiued one of their best shirts!
“NATIVE AMERICANS – SHOULD HAVE FOUGHT HARDER, YOU PUSSIES”
If the feds won’t keep our border secure, the Minute Men are going to be our last line of defense against people escaping from that hellhole.
I like the minute men, but…
You know this isn’t them, right?
Hm, they’re only threatening in this photo because they have the ‘thunder sticks’ that the ‘white uncontrolled immigrants’ gave/sold them.
Oh, c’mon Hell.
Personally, I find the hatchets much more intimidating.
Well, in the “Apache vs. Gladiator” episode of “Deadliest Warrior”, the Apache kicked the Gladiator’s ass without a gun. I’d be terrified and run away if I saw an Apache coming, gun or no gun!
Unless it was Pocahontas, then I would try to make sex with her, the hatchet would be worth the risk! :p
LoL
It might be the last sex you have! Especially if she has a hatchet.
hmmm hatchet sex!!
It is the Manifest Destiny of all peaceful and natural beings to be dominated and destroyed by beer-guzzling remote control weiding bellicose bumpkins with automatic weapons.
I like beautiful blogs!
Original Border Patrol –
Didn’t do a good job actually…
Whoever made this is still pretty happy with the land they’re on right now.
The Seminoles and Miccosukee still haven’t been conquered.
I saw this image with exactly this phrasing on a cup two years.
Go creativity!
As a pretty much full bred First Nations person (Native American…but Canadian ;P) this caption totally made my day.
A lot of these comments and discussions however seem redundant no matter which side of the coin you are arguing. How about you all take a First Nations Studies course taught by someone who doesn’t claim that Columbus ‘discovered’ America? What happened 300 years ago is forever in the past, but that doesn’t mean that Native people are not still opressed to this day. The last church run indian residential school was closed a mere 30 years ago! Things are getting better for native people but that really doesn’t mean that the opression began and ended with the settlers like many of you seem to believe.
Oh and ps, whether you are arguing for or against native people it doesn’t sit well when you use the term ‘less advanced’ in any given sense. It insinuates that you believe we were stupid…or better yet ‘savages.’
All Canadians are savages. Deal with it.
A great argument for controlled immigration.
words words words… All you white folks should hop on a boat and go back to Europe
OH GODS NO.
Only if I get to live with ^^^^^^^^!
Go back even further and ask the woolly mamoths how they felt about border control…
Or Global Warming.
Love this picture!! As a proud Native women living in today’s “modern” society, I have to say that I believe if we all took a second to learn some of the traditional Native ways then maybe we wouldn’t focus so much on the unimportant things in life and really begin to LIVE!!
Also, don’t elected the mustached people, white people, or men, they will kill all the Jews. Continuing the “logic” here. We’re looking for a black female reptile, Condoleezza Rice in ’12?
So the effects of uncontrolled immigration is that the immigrants use their superior technology to defeat you in war, and then massively improve the economic system, develop new science and technology and start a nation known as the most free and oppurtunity-rich country on earth (at that time)?
But Mexicans don’t have superior technology (so they won’t kill you).
@Igor the Vigorous: what can I say, it’s early here
(and to think I’m normally a grammar/spelling Nazi!)
Same, I just like to kid.
This poster, though amusing, is a blatant ripoff of a tshirt that has been sold for a *very long time*. Totally unoriginal.
http://www.northernsun.com/n/s/Homeland%20Security%20Black%20T-Shirt%20(1977B).html
It’s especially funny because ‘native Americans’ aren’t ‘natives’ to the area that’s now the United States. Immigrants, beget immigrants, beget immigrats.
Nice post – pictures of native americans ..Keep Posting– Tip: Keep your post active- commenting helps it – Ron pictures of native americans
This is a discrace to Natives….they wanted to share and they were almost wiped out completely!!!! NOT F*cking funny!!!
The border patrol is a shame FREDOM AND LIBAERTY FOR ALL!!!!!!!!
NOT JUST FOR THOSE ON THIS SIDE OF THE WALL!!!!
O.o
Froo, you sound like you’re talking about picking up a random stranger off the street and having a threesome.
And sorry about the word parent, my mum always said the same thing, and I agree- your parents ARE the people who raised you. However, my mom wanted to know her family medical history, where she was born, what cultures she’s descended from, etc, from her biological parents. Y’know what I mean, though? Not a parent-child relationship, just interested in one’s own personal history thing and meeting the people who spawned you. I think, if I’d never met and been raised by my biological parents, it’d be interesting to see how I look compared to them, know that I’m French-Canadian, and try to figure out which one I take after
I agree. Parents are the ones who raised you, that’s why my parents are the microwave.
(I thought it was the television growing up. I wasn’t a very smart kid.)
We’re in the same boat, Tyler. My mom was also adopted (as were her sister and brother), and she doesn’t know who her birth parents are, and thus she has no idea about her heritage or medical history. The latter has become a little bit of an issue as her health hasn’t been spectacular in the last several years which concerns me because I seem to end up with all of her problems too.
Hey me too! My mom was born to a Catholic French lady who was preggers out of wedlock so she gave up my mom. My mom tried to track her down once but she didn’t want to be tracked down.