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Every animal owner is required by law to treat their animals humanely, including veterinary care as necessary. Why don’t you try that for people too?
(Socks the cat)
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Now that’s a darn good idea right there!
Agreed. All slave owners should be required to provide proper medical care.
Yes, and then we can euthanize the old, the feeble, the weak…..
then grind them up and feed them to the children..because in the end its all about the children…fat ..plump..juicey children
IT’S PEOPLE!! SOYLENT GREEN IS PEOPLE!!
I don’t care what it is, it’s tasty!
speaking of which… (linky)
no linky
Why has it taken so long for the world to recognize the genius of Jonathan Swift?? No more hunger. No more over-population and strains on our resources!
with gravy
Oh, I’m in. I’ll eat anything with gravy!
My favourite pizza topping is cake.
But that’s always a lie!
You’re a lie!
*disappears in a puff of logic*
*froofroucake disappears into charro’s tummy* Nom.
Holy crap I just noticed that you were bitter froofrou.
That was when I hacked up a hairball earlier
Oh I see.
That’s not the idea at all, you moron.
That’s your own idea, and wasn’t even mentioned anywhere prior to your comment.
Hush now, and take your medication ! You’re working yourself up into an incontinent episode again!
Sock stalking a teenager. Now that might be the saddest, most pathetic thing I’ve ever seen. Don’t you have angry letters to write to the people who canceled Star Trek Enterprise or something?
Doh! Totally beat me to it!
Verterinary care may be required but only because domesticated animals can not take care of themselves. Are you saying that tax-paying citizens are to provide care for others that are more than able to take care of themselves?
Your wonderful country leaves hundreds of thousands behind (maybe millions), without means to pay for it themselves. What do you suggest, they be treated with less respect than your neighbor’s cat? As a human, and as a proclaimed citizen in the self-broadcasted best country in the world….you should treat your fellow humans with more respect rather than measuring them by how much money do they have to spend on necessary health care. Your comment points to the lack of sympathy and focus on greed that characterizes the “conservative” America.
I love you. O_O
I think I love them too, D!
You win a cookie for being “on the ball.”
*golf claps*
What an ignorant tool you are…
Parkay?
No, I think this person has pretty much nailed it.
So it’s okay to be preachy when the left does it? I’m not taking a shot at you but the whole “the ‘conservative’ America” thing completely invalidated his point to me. His rant sounded as dogmatic and misguided as anything anyone on the right has cooked up.
are you on the right? or just accusing me of making a leftist point? I don’t get it.
It is a gross overgeneralization, I’ll admit to that. But if I see one more “don’t mess with my health insurance, I like it” I’m gonna go postal. It just screams that the haves don’t give a shit what happens to the have-nots since they’re already set. Forget trying to help ALL Americans. Just as long as these people help themselves. I’m not saying you’ve done that. But some people have.
Oh, and I might add that I got really pissy with a lefty troll further down, so I’m being equal opportunity today.
There’s apparently some misconception that health care is denied to anyone. This is not so. EVERYONE in the USA has health care. All one has to do is walk into an emergency room, and they critical health needs are attended to. They may have to pay something for it, but it’s avaialbe even to those who can’t pay for it.
Where did the idea come from that people don’t have health care?
The idea comes from people like me, who are losing their COBRA and now will have no insurance. Sure, I can do what you said, but only at the cost of losing my house. No biggie. The problem is not the very rich, nor the very poor, it’s the middle class, the ones who have something to lose.
“. . . it’s the middle class, the ones who have something to lose.”
Good points.
Also, WIZARD: Where did the idea come from that the healthcare the poor receive by walking into an ER was . . . FREE? Who do you think pays for that?
Hospitals write it off, sure…..but they also jack up some prices so they don’t go out of business … and the next time YOU go there, YOU pay.
We’re also having some hospitals go out of business, and in smaller communities (like mine), people may end up having to go to a town 40 miles away for a hospital. That’s too far when someone you love is having a heart attack.
“hospitals go out of business . . .”
So, I guess part of the Obamacare solution would be to mandate hospitals stay open even if they can’t afford to? OH! I know . . . the government will support them, TOO!
I don’t think I said the healthcare was “FREE”, did I?
Claiming that hospitals are businesses rather than community services is another thing that’s wrong with the private health care model.
Uh, no.
Let’s look at a single family own restaurant. The family doesn’t own any other restaurants, this is basically their business.
Compare this to a restaurant that is one of a few owned by a family.
Compare them both to a chain of restaurants.
I’m not talking quality, I’m talking price. The small business has to charge more to take care of the overhead. The bigger your business is the smaller the ‘dine and dash’ percentage is. If you have no Dine and Dash you can lower your price since you no longer have to compensate and you make more money.
With Universal Health Care there won’t be anymore dine and dashers, or at least much less of them. Further more, you will be keeping productive people being productive, and not being drains on society by being out on the streets.
But, Nem, I hear Wizard cry. Why would Hospitals lower their prices if they can get away with charging out the nose?
Restaurants do it so the quantity of customers make up for the lack of quality (cash per customer). Hospitals would do it because they are actually out to help people, and taxes.
Yesterday I spoke with a woman who had lost her insurance at work when her company cancelled the benefits because they couldn’t afford the premiums. Unfortunately, she was in the middle of chemotherapy for breast cancer. She is now continuing her chemo treatments without insurance, and her money is almost gone. No private insurers will take her (and even when/if she recovers, she will be unable to get individual insurance for at least 10 years, if ever).
You cannot walk into an emergency room once a week and see an oncologist for cancer. You cannot walk into an emergency room and get pre-natal care. You might be able to get your head removed from your ass though, you should look into that.
If a company stops providing health insurance for someone, they have the option to pick up COBRA insurnace if they do so within a specified period of time. There are no “pre-existing” condition clauses with COBRA. So, tell me why the woman you spoke with didn’t take the option that was made available to her? Would she have to pay too much? Probably not, when weighed against what she’s allegedly paying, now, wouldn’t you say?
If a company cancels their entire policy, which is what happened to this woman, you cannot elect to go on COBRA. This woman did not have the option to enroll in COBRA.
Yes you can. Its a LAW.
Look it up, you can’t. If a company cancels their entire insurance policy (which this non-profit organization had to do, because they couldn’t afford the premiums), there is no policy to continue, hence, no COBRA.
If she were voluntarily or involuntarily terminated from employment, but the policy remained in place for the group, she would have had the opportunity to elect COBRA. Whether or not she would be able to afford it is another question.
I could be mistaken on this, but if she’d had coverage for her pre-existing condition for so many months before the policy was canceled, I believe she can still be covered under a new policy without getting penalized for it, or kept out because of the condition.
That could be a state-to-state thing though.
Froo, if she was actively at work when the policy terminated (which she wasn’t, because she was getting treated for cancer), and then if she had gotten a new job which offered HMO coverage within 63 days, she would have been able to qualify for her new employer’s HMO plan regardless of her pre-existing condition. As you can see, that scenario doesn’t help her.
Well, clearly that’s HER fault for not immediately ditching her job for another one that same day since there are SO many jobs out there. /frothy sarcasm
Does FMLA not cover that? Or am I mixing up two different things?
FMLA is the Family Medical Leave Act, which provides no monetary support, but prevents your employer from giving your job away if you need to take time off to look after your own health or the health of a family member. It’s a guarantee that you will have a job to come back to, but it pays nothing and it is not insurance. I believe the limit is 12 weeks per year.
I am aware of FMLA having taken a leave last year, and being about to leave again this year (stupid babies), and teh fact that I administer it for employees at work.
The part I’m not sure about is whether or not FMLA covers the “actively at work” part. I know that your time away is used against your 520 hours available (per 12 months) and goes against any accrual of vacation time, but is she still considered “not actively at work” during the time of her leave, since she’s still an employee and is assured her job?
I’m just not sure of teh particulars of that, since for my company our FMLA requires you to pay your insurance premiums to keep them current.
Ah, I see. FMLA does not grant her “actively at work” status. It just protects her job from being given to someone else.
As a matter of fact… a very good friend of mine was diagnosed with testicular cancer several years ago, with absolutely no insurance and pretty much broke. They removed the offending ‘nad, set him up with chemo and cured him. And then billed him for over half a mil’. Which he has ever so slowly paid down, by sending them 10, 20, 50 bucks a month, depending on what he could afford. Yes, a lot of it they wrote off. But those write offs are also a tax write off (to a point) and don’t necessarily get passed onto other patients. I understand this is just one case and may be anecdotal, but it is possible to get treatment for life threatening illnesses.
All they have to do is get you to non-emergency status. Once that’s done, they don’t have to treat you anymore if you’re not gonna pay them. And if you’re not gonna pay them, you’d better hope you don’t have to buy anything expensive in the next several years because your credit will be totally fvcked. Your argument is nothing more than a copout and reminds me of Ebenezer Scrooge’s speech to the charity collectors in A Christmas Carol. Is there no compassion at all in this country?
OMGosh. what DID we do before employers offered health insurance?!? LOL!
Big clue – health insurance premiums are going up ahead of wages.
A lot of people DIED, you moron.
A lot of people STILL die, and why do you have to lower yourself to name-calling? Maybe you’re not as smart as I thought you were.
There is plenty of compassion in this country, Rando. The problem comes when the government wants to take what someone works for and give it to someone else. Theft tends to make one cautious.
How about if you give ALL you can to the point of impoverishing yourself before demanding that the goverment steal what I work for to give to others, eh?
If you think that taxation is theft, try not paying your income tax, and see what happens. I don’t think we’ll notice being down a conservatroll.
Theft is theft, whether it’s ‘legalized’ theft or not. It’s taking something that belongs to someone without their permission with the intent to use it for purposes not expressly granted by the original owner. You don’t have to like it, but it is what it is . . . theft.
Excuse me, so if I don’t pay my taxes, men with GUNS will come and take me to jail right? SO my money is being taken against my will at the point of a GUN, and you are using this to say it’s NOT theft? I do not think that word means what you think it means. But thanks for proving the point for your conservatroll (who is not a troll at all; this namecalling of anyone who thinks differently than you is ridiculous and completely hypocritical.)
I know, Wizard, right? The Divine Right of kings or something – if the government does it it’s de facto legal (income tax isn’t even constitutional) which is the dumbest argument on the face of the earth. And yet it’s these same people who want Bush tried for war crimes who will say in the same breath that because tax is done by the government it can’t be theft – yeah, logic isn’t taught in schools anymore.
“Theft is theft, whether it’s ‘legalized’ theft or not.”
Taxes are theft? WTF?! You have representation in this country; just because they make decisions you don’t always like doesn’t mean theft is being committed.
If you are so inclined as to consider what your governement does is theft, you damn well better hurry up and get out of the country, since you so hate “theft”. Go to a country where very little is taken out and taxes; you’ll (hypothetically) be happier!
(Can’t wait to see what kind of government and/or services you’re going to get, though. ::rubs hands together::)
Correction: I meant to say, “little taken out IN taxes”.
Fair enough, Wizard & Anniee. If you think taxes are theft and hate them so much, then stop paying them and never ever use anything that taxes pay for ever again. Since that seems to be your line of reasoning anyway. You shouldn’t have to pay for something you don’t use, right? Then you shouldn’t use the roads, fire and police dept, etc, etc. Taxes are necessary, duh. How else is the government gonna run itself? A bake sale?
“And yet it’s these same people who want Bush tried for war crimes who will say in the same breath that because tax is done by the government it can’t be theft – yeah, logic isn’t taught in schools anymore.”
And how are these things related again?
Eric, on that last post, I’ve got to say they’re related because of Nixon’s “When the president does it, it isn’t illegal” line. When Bush does it, it’s illegal, and since they consider taxes theft, they consider that illegal, too.
It seemed like a really weird place to bring that up. We’re talking about health care and taxes and stuff, and suddenly she goes into us wanting Bush tried for war crimes. I mean WTF?
I’ll say it more slowly so it sinks in. The argument that something is legal simply because the government is idiotic, and the same people who make it want Bush put on trial for war crimes – guess what? If it’s legal because the government does it, you don’t get to try the previous administration because whatever they did was de facto legal. Duh.
Sooooo, if we don’t pay taxes, how exactly are we going to pay to run the country?
The country will just have to work harder and get an education. Dammit, Rando, you don’t ever listen, do you??
Maybe the country should get a fvcking job and stop leeching off of…itself…uh…
Why – and I’m serious here – why do you do that when as a ‘conservative’ you actually KNOW the answer to that question froo? I know it’s not a simple answer, but I also know that conservatives know the answer. Are you too f*cking scared to answer it or just too disingenuous? What is it that stops you from just speaking the truth?
I do (as a Conservative) know the answer to the question, but there is no point in tilting at windmills here. I’ve had conversations about this very thing in the past that are too numerous to mention, both online here, online in other places (with some of the sam epeople here), and offline. Everyone knows how I feel, why should I keep shouting it ad nauseam?
On a serious note, the reason I don’t spew it around randomly (my opinion on how to fix things, that is) is because I prefer, as you’ve said before, not to cast pearls before swine. In the case of someone who just won’t listen to another viewpoint, there is no point in trying to reason with them. In the case of someone who is so slavishly liberal that no amount of talking will change their minds, it’s a waste of time. And speaking to the few conservatives here is preaching to the choir, which is just as big a waste of time.
Even Jesus knew when to keep silent and let others hang themselves around Him.
Thank you for the honest answer, froo. Now how is it that every time you make one of these comments, it ends up being something derogatory towards the few conservatives on here and something suck-upp-ery towards the leftists? I mean, your jokes come at the expenst of libertarians and conservatives who are making an earnest argument, and there’s little denying that. Why must it be that way in your case, to always curry their favor in that way, especially since you acknowledge the pearls before swine (and I know many of them are your friends and not “swine” to you so take that in the spirit it’s intended) point?
It isn’t a deliberate attempt to target Conservatives or Libertarians. I know you’re not on here every day, so sometimes you miss the other comments I make. The problem with Morticia, or with some of the other L or C people who have stopped in is that they truly don’t make their case as to why their way (or, “our way” in the case of Conservatives) is better. You’ve done this in the past as well, sliding into ad homonym attacks and cursing as opposed to taking the high road and actually making a case for yourself.
We’re completely outnumbered here. I don’t have a problem with this, as my friendships are not based on political affiliation. I feel that if I can argue to the death with someone and still be their friend afterwards, then it’s worth something, and there are a lot of others who feel the same way. Now, being completely outnumbered necessitates me to pretty much always take the high road when dealing with opposing views, so long as that opposing view also does not sink into attacks and cursing. When that happens, that person gets lampooned and junked along with everyone else.
The reason it may feel like I’m deliberately targeting C’s and L’s around here is because if they simply run in and froth all over the place, or run by and throw out a trolling statement without backing it up, sink into ad homonym, or have extremely bad debating skills, it makes me (and every other regular conservative here) look extremely stupid. So yes, I’m going to have a higher standard when dealing with those on my side. I expect us to behave better, and dazzle em with logic, not befuddle em with bullshit. Even if the “other side” is throwing bullshit around like candy, there is no reason to do the same.
Morticia has made some earnest arguments, but the problem is that she lacks the empathy that allows her to see how another’s life experiences and circumstances will color their view of the world. So when she goes from actually having something of substance to say into simply repeating “It is what it is”, “Those are the facts”, and other statements, then she’s up for lampooning for sinking to an extremely stupid and callous level.
Ok, froo – I disagree with you of course, but not for the reasons you probably think. The leftist honeymoon period ended November 6, 2008 for me; I’m not pouring out honey anymore. As to Morticia, she certainly doesn’t lose points for pointing out obvious facts and acknowledging them for what they are, not with me. That is a big difference from “frothing” (what the hell is the obsession with FROTH around here anyway? It’s disturbing) or cursing or anything else.
Just out of curiosity, WHEN are conservatives allowed to get mad and curse and call accurate names anyway? Why are they forever forbidden from the natural range of human emotions? When they’re running down the corridor at Sobibor into the ovens perhaps? Or even then do they have to maintain and be “better” than their murderers? How far do you let people rape and pillage and plunder before you’re allowed to GET MAD already? Jesus, it’s ridiculous in the end. I am mad and I’m not afraid to say so.
There is nothing wrong with being mad and saying so, but when you’re in the setting of a debate (as this forum is), throwing around profanity will only cause people to shut you out. There is nothing wrong with trying to be civil in a situation like PunditKitchen that is open to IDEAS.
If you think I’m not mad, you’re sadly mistaken. I’m pissed that my taxes are going to go up in so many ways other than just my income. I’m pissed that this stupid healthcare (first just healthcare, now “healthcare insurance” because the focus group said so) bill is even in the works, much less close to being forced down our throats. I’m pissed that the Cap and Trade bill passed the House in the dark of night, with Nosferatu Waxman at the helm. I think Nancy Pelosi has sold her soul to the devil to stay where she is, especially considering her track record and approval numbers. I think it’s asinine to try a former president (or talk about it) for war crimes…..it’s a can of worms that I’m not sure Obama realizes he’s opening. I think that Obama is a little boy king obsessed with his own power, and has the perfect out of being able to say “Hey, it was that guy who did it, it wasn’t me.”
But, I’m uplifted and happy by the fact that this is one of the (if not THE) best country in the world, and Americans have always managed to pull themselves up and do better. If you look at the Great Depression, we didn’t cease to exist. We came out of it stronger. Every time that we’ve gone into a recession, American ingenuity has pulled us out.
I’m uplifted that the silent majority in this country has finally decided to rise up and SAY SOMETHING in the face of ridicule, shouting, and organized protesters who are bused in from all parts to disrupt.
I’m uplifted more than I’m mad, and I channel the anger into something more constructive than cursing and trying to bend the wills of people to my way of thinking. I can show a better way, not ridicule for choosing another way.
Yes, and those people rising up and saying something were ANGRY and they weren’t afraid to SAY SO. It was THAT that finally got the attention of the elite and caused them to fight back with the dirtiest tactics of all – SEIU thugs and inciting actual violence (like the kid caught red-handed breaking windows at DNC headquarters who was himself a leftist trying to get the blame laid on conservatives.) You seem to want to take the credit for their accomplishments while still currying favor with the left for being “nice” and “fair” and oh-so-innocent of all that anger that is so rightly being expressed right now. It was why I originally came up with froodenrat and you know exactly what I mean by that. It is not a site open to ideas and you are contributing to the hostile atmosphere toward anyone with an opposing viewpoint, deliberately. It is not a site open to ideas, it is, as Eric just told me “a political humor site so get over yourself”. I.e. stop being so freaking serious and heavy.
Froo, I desire peace but I love liberty more. Stop fighting against your own SO MUCH MORE viciously than you fight against the opposition. Or just make more innocuous jokes that aren’t so politically loaded against your side. It isn’t becoming and it makes you look vicious and petty.
I do not fight against my own more viciously than I fight against anyone else, and I’m sorry that you feel that way. Anyone, regardless of political party, who has either a bad argument, sinks to profanity, or otherwise makes “my side” look like a bunch of raging assholes is going to be made fun of. I’m sorry that you’ve decided that I only do that to Conservatives. That’s just not true.
Besides, I think you’re discounting the other Conservatives on this site who also behave in a manner befitting adults and lampoon equally. There are more than you realize….
Yeah, I knew that would just go WHOOOSH. Froo, you don’t see your actions clearly. You really just don’t. It’s fairly disgusting.
Here, how about a really good video? I can’t relate to you and I wish you’d leave me alone when I’m here but if all you say is true (and I figure it probably is) you will appreciate these videos.
{http://www.pjtv.com/video/Afterburner_with_Bill_Whittle/_Bill_Maher,_Barack_Obama_and_the_Truth_About_American_Exceptionalism/2378/8861/}
{http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxnBSb4OKeU}
I’m sure you’ll find something of use in one of those, or both.
I can’t believe I have to POST THIS AGAIN, SO IT SINKS IN.
If you read it carefully, it’s NOT: “it’s legal simply because the government does it”.
“Taxes are theft? WTF?! You have representation in this country; just because they make decisions you don’t always like doesn’t mean theft is being committed.
If you are so inclined as to consider what your governement does is theft, you damn well better hurry up and get out of the country, since you so hate “theft”. Go to a country where very little is taken out and taxes; you’ll (hypothetically) be happier!
(Can’t wait to see what kind of government and/or services you’re going to get, though. ::rubs hands together::)”
Once again, the idea that “if the government does it, it’s not illegal” is NOT the same as: when the government follows its outlined laws, you can’t cry that it is doing something illegal. You can cry to others that it’s *immoral* (e.g. abortion), but that is a matter very much open to DEBATE.
Your options, then:
1- You can petition YOUR LAWMAKING REPRESENTATIVES in the House and Senate to change the law.
2- You can find another country which has laws with which you have agreement, and *move there*.
You can’t POSSIBLY have had this argument examined by anyone but an 8-year-old, because I just blew a hole in it, through which I could ride a Clydesdale (and 3 of his buddies).
Oh, wait: you said the logic is inherently flawed–I think that’s true. Your logic is inherently flawed.
. . . unless your local robber gives you the option to walk away if you don’t like being robbed, of course, since you always have that OPTION when you reside in country with taxation and laws you don’t like, a country which allows freedom of movement, like the United States, that is.
Because the government uses ALL your money, amirite?
I’ll let you think for a minute why taxes are necessary.
Hint. The roads don’t make themselves.
There are studies and articles out, if you choose to do a little research, that show that those people without insurance do NOT get the same care that the insured get. In addition to not getting equal care, they risk losing their homes and income (hospitals can have your wages garnished if you cannot afford to pay them). Tell me is that something the insured commonly have to worry about when they go to the emergency room?
A: We give FREE insurance to the bottom of the barrel scum bags who haven’t worked in 5 generations, what has this done besides bankrupting the country?
B: Hospitals are ALREADY REQUIRED to treat you in an emergency and all the illegals who use emergency rooms as free clinics have bankrupted the country.
C: We have no desire to have 70% of our incomes TAKEN to pay for people WHO DON’T WORK.
NOTHING IS FREE YOU IDIOT
“NOTHING IS FREE YOU IDIOT”
I’m pretty sure you don’t get out your credit card when you phone the police or the fire service
but you do pay for them in taxes year round…
to clarify, i’m definitely not siding with “get a job”. i think he’s an ass. but police and fire aren’t free services.
Neither is nationalized healthcare in the countries which have implemented it. It’s just available to everyone, rich or poor, same as police and fire services are.
That’s why a woman in France just had to call the FIRE BRIGADE to take her 15 miles to the nearest open hospital (other nearer ones had closed due to the economic ruin of a socialist system) so she could give birth. Great system you recommend, idiot.
Under your socialist plan, health care is equally UNAVAILABLE to everyone, fool – not the converse.
Yes, which is why once again the United States is the only developed country IN THE WORLD that is right, and the rest of the fvcking planet is wrong. Gee, I wonder why the rest of the world thinks we’re arrogant. I’ll ask you what I’ve asked the other conservatrolls (and will likely regret doing so). How do you propose making sure every American has access to AFFORDABLE healthcare. I put affordable in all caps because some people tend to ignore that particular part.
You have refused to watch the video about American Exceptionalism that I linked to, then? It’s backed up by HARD NUMBERS so before you accuse us of arrogance, LOOK. Learn. Listen.
By the way it’s very simple for every American to have affordable health care. Deregulate, first of all. Doctors are very generous and willing to donate their time and talents to cooperative efforts so that the poorer of us have a chance to get what we need (and it used to be pretty mucyh no problem to provide some charity care during the time BEFORE overregulation and HMOs made it impossible.) Also before medicare and medicaid distorted the market so grossly that other people had to be overcharged to make up for the underpayment by those programs.
Now, my doctor devotes 10 percent of his time to a free clinic coop in which other doctors do the same and all the scared and elderly patients who are afraid they won’t be able to afford health care get perfectly adequate coverage, even for diabetes and asthma issues. With some tort reform and catastrophic coverage (which we already have in the necessity to provide ER care) everyone could get the care they need if most doctors willingly devoted part of their time to these cooperative efforts, which most ARE willing to do if they aren’t being soaked. There ARE answers and there ARE solutions that don’t involve theft but involve everyone getting what they need. I assure you.
BTW PLEASE watch the videos I gave you, all right?
I’m not watching your video, Anniee. I never like your links and they’re never even remotely balanced. It’s a waste of my time, and I don’t want to creep out my wife by sitting there watching anti-liberal propaganda. Where did you get the idea I liked your links? We’re still at polar opposites politically even if we like some of the same stuff outside of the PK ring.
And I think deregulation would be even more catastrophic than things already are.
Not familiar with how many firefighting services are VOLUNTARY, are we?
There’s a lot more to firefighting services than just people.
While I agree that this person seems very low, I think s/he hints at something else. People don’t mind using their own money to help people who need it, but they’re tired of the fraud and don’t want to be forced to perpetuate it. They don’t want to see their employees ask to have the number of hours worked smudged so that they can keep their welfare check (has happened personally) and they are tired of seeing people they helped one day roll by in a nicer car them the next (when they know their gov’t money paid for it.)
Nobody is against helping. They just want to actually help.
I like the use of “they” instead of “I”.
And the moment I use “I” then I’ll get a “you’re a right wing nut job.”
If you’re going to play a game that stupid then I’m glad I disregarded you.
your previous statement called me preachy, dogmatic, and something similar to what the right would cook up. forgive me if i don’t treat you as if you’d already insulted me twice now.
correction – forgive me i DO treat you as if you’d already insulted me twice
I can meet you halfway on this. I would be willing to pay more money (even than what is being proposed now) to a system if you could GUARANTEE that somebody would put a stop to fraud.
Well, people will always find a way around the system, but I would totally be in favor of harsher penalties and more aggressive investigation of fraud. From what I’ve heard, investigation of fraud in current government assistance programs isn’t very good as they don’t seem to think it’s cost-effective. Blah. I think people who abuse any program meant to help people should be burned at the stake because it does make it harder for those who really need it.
There’s so much of it we simply don’t have time/resources to investigate and punish all of it. Three words that negate your post: court appointed attorney. Yay! Using your taxes to defend someone who already screwed you once!
Wow, four words that negate your post: “innocent until proven guilty”.
Wow! Pay for an attorney then and don’t make me pay for it with the funds you stole from me already!
You’re ignoring the whole “innocent until proven guilty” part. Nice job.
I see what Morticia is saying, but I think it would still help. You take someone who is obviously not using the funds correctly. When found guilty they pay the court costs and are forced to repay the money. As soon as it isn’t profitable to scam a system then people will stop doing it.
@Programmer: You will have to share her with me and bitter.
Um, is there something wrong with people being represented in court?
It’s just a basic right and all, so of course there’s something wrong with it! *froth froth*
That’s rude. Who’s frothing? I was simply responding about harsher penalties. If you can’t see the hypocrisy in using public funds to pay to defend someone for ripping off the public coffers, well, that’s on you.
Still ignoring that people are innocent until proven guilty. I hope you get arrested for a crime you didn’t commit and get sent up the river. Maybe then you’ll understand the justice system.
@charro: either that or move to Iran, get arrested, and see how well you fare there.
Mexico works too.
Nice strawman. Did you major in ad hominem?
I did actually! I’m touched that you noticed.
I majored in underwater basketweaving. Doesn’t that mean I’m supposed have a great job now? (reference to somewhere else about working hard being the only thing that matters)
Well there’s your problem, then! Philosophy majors who don’t go to law school inevitably end up unemployed. Didn’t anyone tell you that?
I majored in communication. No, seriously, stop laughing, I did. What? I did!!
I’m sorry Rando, but I really did start laughing. I think it’s because ALL communications majors really do say that.
In St. Louis, communication major is another way of saying “career in retail.” Again, they don’t tell you that while you’re studying public relations.
I know two philosophy majors who did not go to law school…and both are quite successful in the software industry. Apparently logic and set theory are extremely helpful in outthinking software design?!
@ Rando: As did I, the first time around. I’ve been reluctant to say anything about me, personally, but truth is truth.
I GED’d and emancipated from a foster home at 16, majored in OrgComm (B.A.) while working full-time to take care of myself, birthed a child without benefit of father or government assistance, graduated summa, went on to an amazingly fulfilling career during which I earned a B.S. (Micro) and a MHA (again summa) and my progeny became a Registered Nurse (this year), and then I got gobsmacked with the economic downturn.
I’m young enough/seasoned enough/have enough support, albeit emotional and not financial, to make some serious decisions right now, and I admit having bias against those who would insinuate the intervention of others is the only path to success and personal fulfillment and that one cannot change one’s circumstances if one is dedicated enough to do so.
So there it is. Have at me, and rest assured, I feel no complusion whatsoever to reply.
(And before you ask, yes, I did reveive assistance in the form of unsubsidized Staffords and two Pell Grants. So NAH NAH NAH NAH taxpayers. Take THAT!)
@viking girl: I think I love you
@ProgrammerDude
We female vikings conquer with logic and sex appeal, rather than swords and axes!
I think you’re wrong that “nobody is against helping.” I’ve seen plenty of comments on these boards from people who are very strongly and vocally opposed to helping others. What I find interesting is that the amount of energy this particular group spends being outraged by the fraud in the social services arena don’t seem to have nearly such strong opinions on waste and fraud in other areas, such as, oh, I don’t know, the occupation of Iraq.
Personally, I would much rather my tax dollars go to feeding hungry kids, even if their parents are deadbeats, than financing the implementation of a disastrous war or lining the pockets of a bunch of Wall Street fat cats.
I suppose “nobody” was the wrong word to use. All I know are the people I personally associate with.
I work as hard for my money as the next person, and I don’t want to see it squandered either, but I don’t see decreasing human suffering as squandering money. Anyway, the healthcare debate is not about giving medical care away for free, it’s about structuring a system which to which everyone contributes and everyone has access. From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs and what have you.
And now, to bed, according to my need. G’night kids.
“From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs . . .”
Obama socialism isn’t bad enough, we have to quote Marx, now?
Just because someone you don’t like wrote it, all of a sudden it’s completely invalid?
What’s wrong with the quote? Shouldn’t people get what they need?
Not when I worked to get it, no. What I work for is mine, not anyone elses.
It’s mine, all MINE! Fvck the rest of you!!!
The sad part is, so many people like this claim to be Christians. I think it’s a joke. I’m pretty sure Jesus would’ve been a liberal.
Fiscally I agree. Socially I think there’s a few things he’d have a problem with.
I’m starting to think he’s not a real wizard…
Maybe he’s Voldemort.
Sounds about accurate.
“Not when I worked to get it, no. What I work for is mine, not anyone elses.”
A certain amount is taken from you—and me, and everyone else—to provide for our common infrastructure and protection. It’s done to provide better lives for all of us within the boundaries of this country, who want to be citizens of a safe, healthy, educated, uplifted society.
Homo sapiens came together and formed societies because as a group, even the weakest of us were safer and could best be cared for. We’ve been refining that goal for centuries. Some countries have just about got it right. We in the United States would like to join them.
You want to pay less, keep more of your own money? You’ll get less. Go and move to a country where it’s a bit more, “Devil take the hindmost”, a little more Bronze Age, where the strongest get to be on top and keep what’s theirs.
Of course, in *your* new country, I can’t vouch for how evenly is applied the rule of law, nor how safe you’ll be (from the police, even), nor how clean the water will be to drink, nor the education your children will get, nor if the roads will be paved. If the army is not well-armed, your new country might get invaded and all your property taken from you by someone stronger, but …. those are the chances you’ll take when you want to keep all of what’s yours. What is that quote?
“No man is an island, entire of itself…any man’s death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.”
– John Donne, 1624
I’ll give you that this was Marx, but that doesn’t actually make him wrong, any more than Conservatrolls like you calling Obama a Socialist makes that true.
Marx had a lot of good ideas, that have been implemented successfully. Nationalized healthcare, for example.
But nationalized health care makes us all commies! And then we have to have a cold war with ourselves!!!!
WAAAAAH GIVE ME A HANDOUT!!!
WHAT?! I’m not giving you a hand…oh, you said handOUT.
Is there something wrong with Marx?
He smokes. And he’s got a goofy mustache. And his brothers are stupid.
And he sang that horrible song, Hold on to the Night.
God… why is it everytime I’m seeing “Max”
Self importance much?!
HARPO WAS BRILLIANT!!!
SB, I’ve always wondered about that line, “…from each according to his ability.” Who makes the determination as to what ability each person has? Isn’t that just another way of using the honor system that people slam capitalists who don’t want to be forced to give to charity are using?
So far I don’t trust the government to know who has ability or not, considering the abuse that is rampant in the system. So who gets to decide?
Froo, taxes in America are already on a sliding scale based on income and other factors. American institutions already make decisions on access to care based on income, assets, etc.
As one of the richest countries in the world, I think it is a flawed premise to consider guaranteed healthcare for all Americans “charity.” It should be a basic right of citizenship, in my opinion.
And, serving in the military in SOME capacity should be an obligation of citizenship, as well, even if you’re serving as a file clerk. But, we don’t have THAT anymore, do we?
I think you’re asking about Marx’s idea outside of the context of healthcare; I’m not familiar enough with Marxist philosophy to answer your question off the cuff.
However, I will make an observation, which is to say that you seem to be more concerned about people taking advantage of the system than you are about the people who are not covered by the system. Personally, I would rather that our margin for error be on the side of looking after our citizens than leaving 43 million people behind out of fear that some small percentage will get a free ride.
I’d also like to point out that even we modelled our healthcare after England, for example, and covered everyone, even those people who were not working, the availability of healthcare doesn’t replace the need for income. The unemployed have plenty of motivations to earn an income. You can’t eat medical care.
You can if you put ketchup on it. Ketchup makes everything edible
And yes, I’m commenting on the statement outside of simply heathcare. If you’re going to apply it to healthcare, however, I personally feel that it’s reckless to use that if you don’t completely understand the sentiment.
I’m worried about the people not covered by the system, but what we have in the works now isn’t even going to remotely solve that problem. “The Party of No” has some really good ideas that have been shut down in committee pretty much every time they’re put forth because they just dont’ have the votes to have any speaking power. Also, there have been closed door meetings involving Democrats that have literally shut out Republicans with differing ideas. And Republicans in general. This massive overhaul going toward a single-payer system (which Obama can claim isn’t his primary goal all he wants; there is audio of several speeches from the past (recent past) that dispute that) isn’t going to do anything but piss off the American people who are actually happy with their coverage, and not cover those who really need it. While at the same time causing a necessary tax increas on everyone (not just the rich) to pay for it. This is not the way to get things done.
I guess part of the reason I’m not worried about ‘single payer’ is that I have in effect existed with that for several years now. My employer only offers one health insurance option (down from the original 3 choices), because it became too expensive for them to offer more than the one. I could afford to pay my own way if I wanted, but that is only because I don’t have children to support.
I do not believe this has anything to do with the honor system. Although, I would like to point out that America is very fond of standardized tests: ACT, SAT, LSAT, MCAT, GRE in additional to physical examinations required by some insurance companies and aptitude tests mandated by some unemployement programs (welfare-to-work?). You may not trust the government, but it occurs to me that Americans have done plenty of work to develop standardized tests without a single dime of federal dollars and no one has said that this trend must come to a halt.
My personal thought is that “from each according to their ability” is basically Marx’s summarizing of a notion where each person works a job for which they are well suited taking into account physical, mental and emotional characteristics of the individual with the final choice of which job ultimately riding on the desire of the individual. Its not as great as we have it in America, where anyone can get any job they want so long as the fool the right person or people at the right time, but as my field is rife with money grubbing morons that I wouldn’t let change the oil in my lawn mower, let alone develop my bank’s or pharmacy’s computer system I can’t really see the down-side of standardized testing that keeps people within careers for which they are actually suited.
“. . . standardized testing before allowing just anyone to breed?”
I’m as nearly as liberal as they come, but I can get behind this idea. Has anyone seen the site, PeopleofWalmart dot com?
@>Get a Job
A) Yes, we do have health care for the less fortunate, now how about those of us who are just above the poverty line? Those of us who serve you at restaraunts, dry cleaners, delis, super markets, and the various shops you buy things from? Are they less deserving just because they don’t have the right kind of job? I’d bet you make a fair amount more than any of them and have insurance. Try being on the other side of that privilege.
B) The problem here is that if anything happens to someone who doesn’t have insurance they could spend the rest of their life paying it off should it be serious. I bike to work every day. If a driver hits me and causes severe damage I’m screwed. I work a regular job *and* am trying to get my own freelance career off the ground, but by the current standard I’m still worth less than others because I don’t have the “right” kind of job, which seems ridiculous to me.
3) Prove this. I mean I seriously doubt that you’re suddenly going to be out 70% of your pay. That’s not even realistic. And all of this assumes we don’t do some shuffling around. We spend as much on “defense” in this country as we do on our own people. This seems rather screwed up.
Well said, kit, well said. That whole 70% number sounded like something GETAJOB pulled out of his butt anyway.
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1258
Clearly, your third statement is false. I suggest you stop pulling stuff out of your butt, kit.
What on earth is that link supposed to be saying? I see that 20% of federal tax money goes to Medicare, Medicaid and SCHIP. No where near 70%.
And even if it did say 70%, all the graph shows is where the money paid actually goes, not how much of people’s pay is contributed.
Talk about pulling stuff out of your butt. And still not getting it right.
It’s possible that the rules have changed to medicaid, but when my first wife was pregnant with twins I had just gone through a job change and the insurance carrier for the new place said she wouldn’t be covered since it was a pre-existing condition. We checked in with Social Security and found out that we could still have medical bills paid, but I would have to pay for part of it – just as I would have had to with the insurance carrier. My question is, does anyone know if the rules have changed? Is it still possible to get coverage like this through Social Security?
I’m not certain if that’s still available. Probably not as social security has been claiming it’s going out of money as it is. I do know however that once you’re on state medical where I’m at, they harrass you with paperwork, and make things frustrating as hell to try to make you to WANT to be uninsured so you don’t have to deal with them.
Clearly, Kit, those who serve at restaurants, delis, etc., need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and get better jobs.
I absolutely love this. I’m a Canadian, and I am going to say up-front that I am a socialist…And I love our health care system. Of course there are flaws, every system has flaws, but I believe that any system that is for the greater good is the better system.
For those opposing public health care, I can’t wait until you or a loved one goes through a medical crisis and, for whatever reason, does not have insurance. And, by the way, people saying that some American citizens should “just get a job”….it really isn’t so easy all the time. What if someone does not have any family or friends living in the area? What if they lost their job for whatever reason? If a person in dirty clothes that hasn’t showered in days walks into a job interview, they probably won’t be hired. And no, they may not be able to go to a shelter to just have a shower. For safety reasons, people cannot do that, and many shelters are overcrowded and don’t have any empty beds.
I’m no expert on the American health care system, but as a nursing student entering my last year of school I have taken a class on the Canadian system. I can tell you this: I refuse to work in the states if is remains as it is now. I could never turn away someone that cannot get a medical procedure done because they cannot afford it.
A: That’s Medicaid you’re thinking of, right? Well, in my home state the average income is something like 27,000. That’s above the line for Medicaid, but not enough to afford insurance.
B: You still have to pay the hospital. And often people can’t afford hospital bills, so they live with pain or sickness so that they can work and pay bills, rather than risk losing a job or house.
C: 70%? Dear me, that’s rather a lot. In fact, that seems to be an utterly made up amount. Pls to be trying harder.
This student, who works two jobs and still doesn’t have insurance, is signing off.
AFLAC has many affordable insurance plans, along with many other companies. You simply may not be able to afford their ‘gold’ plans, but they all have plans that working people can afford (you might have to give up a few latte’s, or packs of cigs, or cable tv, or INTERNET, or cell phone, or some other luxury, but we all make our choices on what’s important to us)
Aflac doesn’t provide insurance policies in the general sense. The provide additional coverage (cash payout to policyholders) to cover what insurance doesn’t. Their policies don’t cost as much because they aren’t insurance; you would never be able to survive solely on aflac if you were injured. And what policies are affordable if these “working people” have a pre-existing condition? Or also have to buy health insurance for a family in addition to themselves? The bottom-tier plans from private health insurance runs typically $150-200/month minimum, even for a young and healthy person. Net income from a $27,000 salary is less than $1600/month. You want to squeeze housing, food, clothes, utilities and transportation costs into that, and still have 1/8 of it available for insurance? Never mind if you have to throw in education costs, or re-payment of education costs because the person is attempting to better themself. I doubt you’ve faced too many of the choices that involve buying private health insurance or making 27K.
You really need to stop being an asshole. Illegals don’t use emergency rooms as free clinics, you useless tool. All they have to do is get you to non-emergency status and they can stop treating you, if you’re not going to pay them.
Are you aware how difficult it can be to get a decent job, you useless tool of a human being? Especially for the 1/6th of the population that isn’t insured. By the way, you conveniently forget the OTHER things that “70%” of your income is going to. You know, like the police, ROADS, and anything else our government may sponsor. Go choke and die- and please, leave your money to paying for an insurance policy that someone else gets.
I’d say most everyone is worth more than you are.
Actually, Igor, you are mistaken about the use of the ER as a free clinic. It happens all the time, both anecdotally and otherwise. Illegals aren’t the only ones doing it.
-Mumbles something about a goddamned four-hour wait time anyway-
-Looks at still-crooked arm-
So, doctors are treating these patients… illegally? Of their own free will? Because I’m not sure why a doctor would treat a non-emergency patient who won’t pay the hospital..
Because you don’t know if it’s a non-emergency until you get them in there to look at them, and at that point you’ve already used up a bunch of money just to triage them.
Also, I know you’re bitter about the arm thing, but remember, diarrhea in a child is usually far more serious than a broken arm. A broken arm is painful, diarrhea can (and does) kill. Especially if it’s been going on for a while and the kid is dehydrated.
And as far as not paying the hospital, they don’t do credit checks (thank God) before they see you, and they don’t make you pay up front. So you’ve got emergency and non-emergency patients being seen without any guarantee of payment after the fact.
-Wonders if the only solution to this problem is to kill all the kiddies-
-Decides maybe another day-
God, I’m a terrible person.
Stay gold, Ponyboy
Life’s first green is gold…
And YES, Illegals DO use the ER for a free clinic. I see them everyday! And they all have a lawyer already, demand ( by law) that WE speak THEIR language and an amazing number of them have Medicaid cards and get treated for free! (free to them- not to the tax payer). That is reality. And they tell me that they are here illegally because they know there’s nothing we can do about it.
Any loser can walk into any ER and get “necessary” health care-up to and including splinters removed. I work there, I’ve seen it. No charge if you can prove you can’t pay. You might have to wait a while but all the “indigent” don’t seem to mind much since they are playing games and watching movies on their I-pods. This boohoo the poor public assistance receivers BS has GOT to stop!
Oh boohoo! Poor people don’t deserve care! If you’re not rich, you deserve nothing!!!
Wow, if you’re that bitter about it, maybe it’s not the best place for you to work.
How do you prove you can’t pay?
turn pockets inside out, shrug shoulders, and show pout face
Nonono, you have to show up at the ER wearing a barrel.
Then you make two potatoes dance with forks. It helps if you have an adorable face and soulful puppy dog eyes.
So you don’t think it’s the least bit strange that America is the only developed country not to have nationalized healthcare? Or that despite spending more on healthcare than any other country, we rank 37th in efficacy? Or that our infant mortality rate is higher than 32 other countries (at least we beat Croatia)? By the way, I’d hate to get treated by you in the ER, you sound like you went to the Nurse Ratchet school of medicine.
See, that’s what I don’t get. Talk about an egocentric self-righteous nation. All of the other developed nations have it totally wrong, and only the USA knows how health care should really be: outrageously expensive and solely profit based! France, Germany, Canada, England, pfft. WTF do they know? They’re not the GREATEST GODDAMN NATION ON THE PLANET!!!! We’re so much better than them, and they don’t even know it. Now please excuse America while it masturbates to how awesome it is and how stupid the entire rest of the universe is. BTW, all the other planets in our solar system suck. Why? BECAUSE THEY’RE NOT AMERICA DAMMIT!!!!
Okay, I need to go to bed before I have a stroke.
You should go to your bed to have a stroke
Hardy har har.
What? It’ll be easier on the EMTs if you aren’t on the ground when they have to load you onto the gourney!
Wow. You are a really horrible, disgusting excuse for a human being. If you come back as anything better than an intestinal parasite in your next life it’ll be a huge surprise.
But if she works really hard at being an intestinal parasite, she’ll be the best one out there and get a better life!! She might graduate into being liver fluke, then move on to one of those worms that burrow into your brain!
And when she’s a brain worm she can “whisper” to her host that if they were a harder worker, with a good job with benefits, they could have health care and be rid of her.
I snickered froo.. mainly cause we all know how intestinal parasites “Move on”.
That’s the best you can do to counter what’s clearly said in a joking manner?
Personally, I’ve got a place with my maker. It’s not to late for you, as well.
Your maker would be disgusted with your diatribes here and the lack of concern you show for your fellow men.
“I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.” – Jesus
Well you are a rude one, aren’t you?
Diatribes? Do tell. Where did I call anyone a filthy name as was done to me? Where did I do anything but outline the expectations of a capitalist society? Who ever said I agreed or disagreed with said society?
Who remotely said lack of concern? Did I ever say “NO HEALTHCARE 111!!!!!?”
I didn’t create the system, so don’t blame me.
You’ve become really boring and tiresome. Banging everybody over the head with your opinions ad nauseam is not going to make anybody agree with you. Haven’t you figured that out yet?
If you’re so offended by what I’m writing, there’s a simple solution. Off yourself so you don’t have to read it.
Oh yeah, THAT’S a christain attitude. :eyeroll:
I’m sorry but I tend to get cranky if I don’t finish my “meditations” about how awesome I am.
Hitler “meditated” 12 times a day. Most people don’t know that. Except for the people who read the Hitler thread. They know that.
-Knew that-
-Feels proud-
I do something that starts with an “M” twelve times a day..
Masticate?
Marmalade.
Minotaur?
Mastodon.
Master Debaters.
Last time I looked, the USA is the only developed country that’s a capitalist society (for now). I’m not sure why, since there are SOOO many other developed countries that have the health care that people want, they just don’t simply migrate there and suck off their systems . . .
So you’re suggesting that a reasonable solution for the average American without insurance is to move to another country which offers nationalized healthcare?
Further, are you suggesting that nationalized healthcare cannot exist in a capitalist society? May I direct you to a map of the United Kingdom?
I’m suggesting that if there are so many better opportunities for a person to get what they want, they should go get it. There should be at least ONE country available on earth that still allows those that wish to be free, be free. A government that’s big enough to give you everything is big enough to take it away.
I like capitalism. I think it works great, when not artificially manipulated by government intervention.
If you want something, go buy it. If you can’t buy it right now, work harder so you can. What you work for should be yours, and yours alone, to do with what you wish, whether it be give it charitably or horde it. No one, and I mean NO ONE has any business telling someone what they can do with what they work for.
I’ll turn your question around. If NHS is so bad, than why do only 8% of people in England choose to purchase private coverage?
Again, you know it isn’t reasonable to move countries in order to get access to healthcare. Do you think people in other developed countries are not “free”? You are clearly very uneducated about this topic and so I’ll leave you to your ignorance.
What is the ratio of private options in England? And on top of that, what is the price? I’ve been known to buy crappy Walmart tennis shoes because they were cheaper, not because they were better. Sometimes you get what is offered free regardless of how crappy it is because that’s still better than paying for it.
I put a wiki link in my name, but it doesn’t provide specifics on the ratio of private options available beyond saying “a wide variety of alternative and complimentary treatments for those willing to pay.” I asked my English bf about private insurance and he says no one he knows uses it because they don’t see the need.
He has a hard time understanding why Americans are so opposed to a system like theirs, he doesn’t see the advantage to our system. Frankly, neither do I.
Because we’re AMERICANS, dammit! And Americans don’t take handouts from the government! We’d rather die than do that! *froths everywhere*
*sigh* I’ll get the mop.
*tries to restrain eRando as he screams, BOOOOOOOOOOOOTSTRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPPSS!!!!*
I’m such a pathetic excuse for an American. I don’t even HAVE any boots!!
Hell Rando, I don’t even have boots with straps…
You win. So, can we just skip the governmental middle-man? You can just give your money directly to me. Thanks!
I don’t know that the UK IS a capitalist society . . .
Google it. There’s a whole list of capitalist countries, it’s a big world, and you might find it hard to believe, but it doesn’t revolve around you.
He can’t. He’s too busy thinking about how being American makes him 1000 times better than the rest of the planet.
Admittedly, that can take up a lot of time.
As you say SB; It’s also woth noting that you spend 1/3 more of GDP than the next highest spending developed nation, and twice the arithmetic mean of the top 10 (which your spend skews towards the high end).
Ok, wicket. Shell out YOUR money to the point it impoverishes YOU, then you can talk . . .
Can you cite this or did you find it on your resident frothy conservatard blog?
He pulled it out of “Wizard’s Book of Knowledge”…. from under the chapter “Things I don’t Know, So My Opinion and Assumptions Are Right”.
That’s chapter 3!!! I can’t wait until he moves on to Chapter Four: “How To Make Up Blog Names To Cite Things I Can’t Prove.”
Oh, Chapter Four is my favorite! Who wants popcorn?
Me, me, me!!
In which chapter is “When You Scream It Becomes Indisputable Truth”?
The “Liberal Play Book” chapter.
Aw, who pissed in your butter?
I think you spelled “Bill O’Reilly” wrong.
*sigh* You’ve got it totally wrong, BB. The conservatives like to scream and yell and use scare tactics. We liberals prefer condescending and acting smug. Like I’m doing now!
It’s ok to “shell out YOUR money” to greedy insurance companies, but when it’s a national health care system – all of a sudden it leads to impoverishing? It’s obvious you are against the health reform bill, but my question is why? You think it’s going to make you go broke? The purpose of the bill is to do the exact opposite (lower cost).
It’s PERFECTLY ok for me to shell out MY money that I work for to anyone I choose to. It’s NOT ok for one American to be FORCED to pay for the expenses of another American (or illegal alien, or what have you). If I choose to self-insure, that should be up to me, as well. I shouldn’t have to have someone take what I work for from me, forcibly, and give it to someone else who thinks they’re entitled to what I work for.
Then you come up with a brilliant idea to insure all Americans. And if you think all Americans shouldn’t be insured or have access to AFFORDABLE health care, then see Comrade Maxwell about being added to the death panels please.
Why? I don’t need to. Regardless of the situation, MY MONEY DOESN’T BELONG TO YOU! What part of private property rights don’t you get? OH wait, perhaps the GOVERNMENT should make sure that EVERYONE in the USA has a house. Maybe the GOVERNMENT should make sure that EVERYONE in the USA is made to eat healthy. Maybe the GOVERNMENT should make sure that EVERYONE in the USA works at a job that the GOVERNMENT wants you to work at. Maybe the GOVERNMENT should make sure that EVERYONE has government run transportation. Maybe the GOVERNMENT should run every detail of your life. . .
The government has had DECADES of running programs such as Medicaid, Social Security, the Post Office, etc, and NONE of that is doing well. Let’s just see how badly they can fvck up our lives entirely, eh?
I’d TRULY like to see the country divide along political philosophies. The Liberals could take whatever side of the country they want, and run it just like they want. They could suck off of each other for as long as it would last (“the problem with using other people’s money is that eventually it runs out”), and the free people could take the other half of the country, and just start over. Would that work for you?
So. Do you think all Americans should have access to AFFORDABLE health care?
And keep yelling at me. It amuses me.
Me, too.
::sings:: “It’s beginning to look a lot like Froth-mas!”
*crickets*
Funny. Wizard never bothered to answer that question for me.
Explain to me how… in a society where everyone shares their money (Therefore a constant circulation, and re-circulation) could the money… run out?
You didn’t answer my question… and the answer to yours is very simple: In a society where everyone shares their money, the incentive to work hard is because that means the society as a whole grows stronger… and like I said in a SOCIETY where the money is shared, it’s not the government giving hand outs, it’s everyone helping everyone else out.
So, your theory is that I would work hard to make sure you’re fed, clothed, medicated, etc. . . generally mankind is not that generous.
I would NOT work to feed you, clothe you, medicate you, house you, etc. I believe in private property rights. I believe in democratic capitalism, not socialism of any sort.
Don’t get me wrong, its ok that you believe that, but it’s been tried before, and it never works. However, since you believe in it so strongly, can I have your money?
Socialism doesn’t take away private property rights, that’s communism. And it’s fine if you believe in democratic capitalism, it doesn’t believe in you, otherwise our market wouldn’t have tanked back in november.
And you’re answering a question I didn’t ask.
I’ll ask it again: In a Society, where everyone shares their money, meaning, a constant circulation and re-circulation of wealth, could the money run out.
I didn’t ask if you wanted to clothe feed, or provide medical care for anyone… if you can get over that fact, you might be able to answer the question being asked.
By the way, the quote from Margaret Thatcher is “The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money [to spend].” What I said was simply a shorter version.
“I’d TRULY like to see the country divide along political philosophies.”
No, how ’bout you just leave? You want to pay less in taxes and get fewer services from your government, so you’re not going to be happy with the direction the country continues to go–has gone, with regulation and programs, since the turn of the 20th century–in the future, as the world progresses and gets more and more enlightened. Go choose a developing country, where it’s Devil-take-the-hindmost, will ya? Don’t take too long to go . . . . kthnxbai!
The problem with your presumption is that lowering taxes means less government services. It doesn’t. Lowering taxes provides incentives to hire more people. The more people working, the more revenue to tax. But, then, you’re a liberal, and don’t believe in working, anyway.
Nice way to presume while bashing someone about their presumptions…
One would think that Wizard’s kind of statement (“But, then, you’re a liberal, and don’t believe in working, anyway”) comes from those who are either:
1) Too ignorant to participate in an online discussion;
or
2) Not really interested in participating, but just wants to incite retaliation.
Which do you choose?
And, my assessment was flawed how?
Oh, nevermind . . . I forgot, *I* was the one who was no longer interested in his participation!
ROFL
Uh because no one has stated they’re against working. In fact it’s the opposite, if everyone works, and everyone pitches in, we can only BETTER ourselves. If anyone’s the leech, it’s you. You’ll take and take and take, and not give anything back… you know what else does that? A Parasite.
This is flawed: “Lowering taxes provides incentives to hire more people.”
Not always true. Some of the time it is true, in business. Some businesses (and private persons) reap higher profits and do NOT reinvest nor expand. (What then?)
then the rich get richer…and isnt that the amerikan way?
Funny to read the insults posted against your reply. You spoke the truth and the CONservatives hate to hear it. Keep up the good work.
wait, wait, wait… i’m laughing far too hard right now. you just called rando and s_b (among a ton of others) conservatives?!
HAHAHAHAHAHAH! oh, that’s a good one!
No no, Noneya was speaking to wicket…. he was spot on.
The nesting has gotten entirely too confusing for me.
your telling me, im posting this reply in that mud wrestleing pic
If we need to treat our fellow human beings with respect, how ’bout getting rid of abortion? It kills a human being (or future human being) and often results in medical and psychological problems for the would-be mother.
By that line of logic, let’s outlaw haircuts and cutting one’s finger nails, since those are just about as much human beings as a blob of stem cells.
Aw, I agree with you %100.
Provided the owners i.e. the person himself or herself, also pay the bill, just like pet owners do for their pets!!!!! We don’t take money from other people to pet for others pets care!
So, you’re perfectly fine with the insurance companies taking your money for services you might not even use? It’s fine for you to pay thousands every year, just as long as it’s helping you and ONLY you.
Gotcha.
Exactly. You try and talk to opposer’s of health care reform, and it makes no sense.
All while the AIG corporate offices are being remodeled during the CEO’s vacation with his family spending his multi-million dollar bonus.
Oh it makes sense. All too often it sounds like “I have insurance that’s great for me. The rest of the people aren’t my problem. Fvck ‘em.”
SMALLER GOVERNMENT!!! LESS TAXES!!! *
NO PUBLIC ROADS!!! NO POLICE!!! WE WILL USE MOB ENFORCEMENT!!!
I, however, will be using my clone army to provide personal “protection” for those willing to pay the right price… For those who can’t well… welcome to capitalism!
I won’t pay until somebody explains to me how all the clone troopers had different heights.
Ask George Lucas. It’s all his fault.
someone was not left in the test tube long enough-nods- or if they started letting them out into the feild in the teens some of them are still getting taller or shorter
well the problem arises when you rely on the Kamino’s to do proper non-human clones, you see, to them, we all look the same (kind of like livestock) which inevitably leads to inconsistencies in the product. for truly reliable cloning they should have stuck to the Spaarti cloning cylinders and Ysalimiri. There really isn’t any better way.
ooo oo, i forgot
**geeks out**
in the years following the clone wars it became apparent that there was instability in the cloning process used to create the first clones (this was later shown to be caused by an negative impart the cloned embreyos had when introduced into the force, eventually driving them insane). When the Galatic Empire was in full swing they both enlisted and consripted soldiers from imperial worlds and conquered worlds to grow their armies, hence the storm troopers in the original trilogy weren’t really clones at all but regular star wars galaxy what-nots. also the emperor was extremely xenophobic, so the majority of his military was composed of human members. i think he was sexist, too, because you never really see any female storm troopers outside a convention (and… ooo, i like! added a link)
*trying not to be a jackass*
have you ever had sex? nerdiness of this magnitude usually is accompanied by a lifetime of celibacy…
why yes ma’am, i have! let me introduce you to my girflriend, righty, say hello
*balls up right fist into a face, draws eyes on the finger*
why, hello there, darlin’!
HAHA!
we used to tease my nerd friend that his girlfriends were “hangela” and jill. because if you take your left hand and fold your middle finger down half way and then turn your hand to face you, it looks like it says “jill”.
Wallfly, don’t forget that a lot of the stormtroopers were people who had pissed off the guberment and were forced into service. I believe that happened to Kyp’s family, right before he was sent on his way to the Spice Mines.
*is also a total geek, and owns all of the books*
BTW, did Thrawn not kick major ass?? I bet Putin would be totally pwned by Thrawn!
**jaw drops**
omfg. you’re awesome!!
and yah, thrawn was an awesome character (totally woulda have pwn’d putin, not even a fair fight).
Wow. I luv all you people.
It wasn’t until my son became obsessed with Star Wars that I learned a lot of this kind of nonsense.
Anyone who could win over the Emperor being a “non-human” is a winner in my book… and well in most of the books he was in as well.
Police are local. So are roads except for the big highways which are covered in the interstate commerce clause. Sorry, you’re not making a case for socialism here.
Are they or are they not paid for with public money? That’s the issue here.
u.s marshals and fbi are some good examples of “cops” that aren’t local
And, they’re relatively useless, in the grand scheme of things.
So are you.
Do you just aimlessly spout off at the mouth like that in real life? It would make sense why you have nothing if you do.
Why I have nothing? Who said I have nothing? Assuming a lot, aren’t we? Funny, you seem to be getting angry with me. That amuses me greatly. Keep frothing, bud.
Then there’s a “standing army”, which you really shouldn’t require since the Constitution makes good provision for state militias.
plus, standing all the time has got to be difficult. you think they’d at least let them sit down from time to time…
nah, a sitting army isn’t nearly as imposing, however, if we put them all on segways…
can we compromise and do the motorized scooters? you still gotta stand on a segway…
aye, sounds like a fair compromise.
And who needs public schooling anyway? Only the people who can afford education deserve it, just like in the good old days!
Actually, home schooling is better for the kids, anyway. Public schools are just a means to inject liberalism into young minds.
Wow dude… just wow. Public schools teach many things you can NEVER learn at home…
like inbreeding is BAD
You mean the “good old days”, without a middle class? The “good old days” like we’ve been trying to recreate since the 70s?
Because nobody owns humans.
My point exactly. But we’re on our way to becoming mere creatures of the state and not free men and women anymore. We’re certainly being owned.
Anniee, it’s really sad that you think this way because you’re obviously quite intelligent. You just come off looking and sounding like an utter fool.
1984 isn’t fiction anymore.
BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU!
http://www.popsiclesandgrenades.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/smile-big-brother-is-watching-you-obama-209×300.jpg
Wow, you are naive if you think a fiction book is true. No, naive isn’t the word. Stupid is better. Next you’ll be saying the bible isn’t fiction.
Wow, you’re really confrontational regarding sarcasm, aren’t you?
Allow me to reiterate: the internets may not be for you.
Better yet, take an on-line course to enhance your portfolio and increase your skillset in the time you are wasting here pointlessly pontificating. That’s the personal growth to which I was referring.
Or is it easier to just cry here about how unfair life is with those who would empathize with your dilemma? It’s really your choice.
I don’t really remember charro crying about anything, but I could be mistaken.
Well, at least you aren’t calling me stupid. That’s relatively ridiculous, given the discussion.
I don’t think you’re stupid. An ass, sure. But not stupid.
If being a realist makes me an ass, then so be it.
Hahaha you’re funny little troll. Sorry I left my “Internet Sarcastic Detecto Meter” at the welfare office when I left after sponging off the government.
You’re not as wise as you like to think yourself to be. Get over yourself.
Yes, I am, and I’m sorry you forgot the property for which I likely paid during your sponging experience. Shame, that.
Hahahaha, you’re just a troll. Enjoy your delusions, I’m sure they will serve you well in the future. Arguing with a brick wall would be more productive.
Enjoy your life in lala land, egotistical troll!
And you’re just a whiner, which is why I’ll be successful and you’ll still be, well, whining.
Have fun with that!
And yet, you’re still here, trying to prove your self proclaimed superiority to someone who doesn’t care.
You’d better start being successful, because right now, you’re failing.
And yet, she still hasn’t realized the idiocy in her arguments…
Which is the part that REALLY worries me.
What is funny, Max, is that Morticia here is spouting that she KNOWS TEH TRUTH!!!!! about the way the job market works, yet she uses the future tense when talking about her own success. That leads me to believe that she’s a young kid either in college about to go into college with an advisor filling her head full of nonsense about the way the world works in order to fill a quota on whatever degree she’s getting.
It’s going to be a sad day when life slaps Morticia upside the head.
Life stopped slapping back in November.. it’s now decided to make people bend over and.. well take “the facts of life”
But yes I agree, I’m still laughing over the “I’m more intelligent than you and I know it!” argument… ON THE INTERNET!
Someone obviously hasn’t heard the parallel drawn to the special olympics about such things…
No one said they were more intelligent, and I am certain that’s the way the world works. How many times do I have to say I’m sorry that’s the reality, but it just is? I didn’t make it that way, capitalism did.
This is really amusing, considering we are essentially arguing the same point, that being the fact that life happens and you just have to bust your ass to rise above it. I choose to embrace the system because lamenting it and crying about the inherent unfairness takes more energy than bettering myself and going into debt to continue doing so.
As I’ve repeatedly said, it is what it is.
Just saying “it is what it is” doesn’t prove your point at all. You keep stating the same thing over and over without backing it up as if what you’re saying is common knowledge and everyone normally sees things your way when clearly that isn’t the case. Reality is a perception. Your perception of reality is clearly different from ours. Nobody is going to debate that hard work *can* help you move up. But you seem to think that it guarantees it, and it doesn’t. There are many, many other factors involved. You HAVE to know this. You can’t possibly be that dense.
Of course I’m dense. That’s why I keep educating and bettering myself so I can be at least as smart and well educated as everyone here who clearly knows that resting on one’s laurels is the most effective way to be successful in a capitalist society.
Perhaps you should follow my lead, no?
I have to laugh at your request that I back up my assertion that one has to be a self-starter, work hard, and go where the opportunities are to be successful. If you don’t like your circumstances, it is up to YOU and only YOU to change them. No one else can do that for you.
Open your eyes, Rando.
I’ve never met a troll with quite the sense of haughtiness that you have, and I’ve met plenty of trolls.
Maybe every once in a while you can stop to think about someone else’s point in between all that hard work and self-starting you do. You seem very sure of yourself, and act like an asshat about it. If you actually discussed your points, instead of acting like they’re common knowledge and refusing to cite ANY statistics regarding your opinion/view of the world, you might have people listening to you. Instead, all you’ve got are a bunch of people who think you’re acting obnoxious and stuck up.
Think whatever you want, and then head on out into the big old world and see the harsh realities. No one’s going to help you, no matter how harshly you decry that fact.
Your naïveté is touching. I wish you luck.
“I have to laugh at your request that I back up my assertion that one has to be a self-starter, work hard, and go where the opportunities are to be successful.”
Absolute bollocks. You can be lazy, mediocre and just happen to be in the right place at the right time.
WHERE’S YOUR EVIDENCE!!! RAWR!
Of course, Danbala, there are outliers on every curve. But negating the rest of what I have discussed as absolute bollocks is ridiculous. Are you insuating that sitting on your ass and waiting for your shot is the path to success?
“But negating the rest of what I have discussed as absolute bollocks is ridiculous.”
I didn’t do that. But. I do find your way of trying to get your point across rather bollocks, and rather inefficient. No one here, as far as I have ever seen, is saying that “sitting on your arse and whining should get you a better life”, and yet that is the point you keep trying to refute – or at least that is how it seems.
And by saying that everyone can do what you have done, or what many others have done, and when people try to protest that just repeating “truth hurts, huh?” or “it is how it is” and similar “I know best”-like phrases is not going to get people to listen to your points.
I never said “I know best.” I said American society “is what it is.” You can’t know that, as you’re not from here, and haven’t lived the mentality. Not denigrating, just saying. That’s the way it is here, and those are the paramaters within which we who reside here must operate to be successful.
Don’t make excuses for others. In this country, ANYONE can succeed. The safety net and opportunities for those at the bottom, particularly those of minorty classes, are tremendous. The money available in the form of loans is also practically unlimited for those in the lower middle class. Even those in the middle class can choose loan packages to acquire the education needed to be successful. One simply needs dedication and desire.
Additionally, you should take my responses in context. How else do you respond to someone calling you names without lowering yourself to their level besides how I have responded?
Again, sorry you don’t like it. I’m not saying I do, or I don’t. I’m saying that’s just the way it is, same as it is the way it is in your country, and I am certain some residents dislike operating within those parameters and complain.
“I never said “I know best.” I said American society “is what it is.” You can’t know that, as you’re not from here, and haven’t lived the mentality. Not denigrating, just saying.”
Whenever someone has said that what you say is true (that if you work hard, you succeed) is not, in fact, true, you have just answered “Truth hurts, huh?”. And you can’t know anything about what I can’t know about the US.
/…/
“One simply needs dedication and desire.”
And luck – or if that sounds too exclusive, maybe just an occasional break from the bad luck.
Try Ctrl+F with the phrase “truth hurts”. I said it once, Rando said it once, and you said it twice. Hyperbole doesn’t help, Danbala.
Now I’ve had it twice. My point stands, however.
One final note:
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.
I choose preparing and finding my opportunity.
Others will be waiting a long time for it to come to them.
Yes, the exact phrase “truth hurts” wasn’t really what I was referring to.
You keep refuting a point that no one is making – that “sitting on your arse is the way forward”. What I believe people are objecting to is that you seem to say that hard work is a guarantee to success, which implies that unsuccessful must equal lazy. There is a big difference there.
Don’t go starting that again.
I was doing my best not to get offended by that
Yeah, I’ve got my hands full going off on the trolls. I don’t really want to get into it with people I actually like. LOL
Sorry, didn’t mean to offend you. Your Detecto Meters must have also been left at the welfare office.
No, mine’s been jammed by pure annoyance. That always throws my sarcasm meter off.
I wasn’t even going to touch that. Two words on that: irreducible complexity.
So where are the surveillance cameras, the secret police, the compulsory phys ed sessions every morning…?
Morticia – another person with brains, I see. Don’t worry about the zombies – they’ll try to drive you off but you just have to be persistent like Angus, let it roll off your back, and eventually they’ll largely let you alone.
By the way, WATCH THIS VIDEO – it is chock full of AMAZING fact and if you were ever proud of this nation, you will be infinitely more so after this – {http://www.pjtv.com/video/Afterburner_with_Bill_Whittle/____Bill_Maher%2C_Barack_Obama_and_the_Truth_About_American_Exceptionalism/2378/}
You will be sorry if you don’t watch it, but you won’t know that until you do, so please do! Hammer. Nail. Head.
I say zombies of course because everyone knows zombies survive by eating brains. Luckily some of us have more than enough to go around or we’d be in some deep sh*t.
Because posting about your superior intelligence to everyone else’s here will definitely prove how smart you are.
Thanks, Anniee, for screaming “I’M POMPOOUUUUSSS AND AAARRROOOOGANNNNNTTT AND THEY’RE ALL STUPID I’M JUST ALWAYS RIGHT!” into my ear.
At least, that’s all I hear when you compliment people who blame others for not being as successful as they are.
Damnit Tygor! You got froth all over the floor and I just cleaned up Rando’s!
Well excuuuuse me, missy, if I get a little pissy when Anniee implies that everyone here is an idiotic zombie and acts like she’s part of some elite club of “intelligence.”
Yeah, I guess she is, if “rabidly defends idiotic circular logic and ignores the points of the people she’s talking to” counts as intelligent…
Stop putting on shoes that aren’t meant for you and you might not get so pissy. Those who can do nothing but label everyone who thinks differently as “frothy trolls” and every conservative as a conservatroll are stupid, counterproductive to any conversation, and zombies. If you are not one of the ones who does this labeling and counterproductive conversation (though you’re coming close by falsely accusing me of doing so when you know better) then don’t. put. on. the. shoe.
“Morticia – another person with brains, I see. Don’t worry about the zombies”
If you don’t think that implies that either the majority of PK posters or the regular posters here are brainless zombies, there are better ways to say that she’s intelligent. Because acting like “intelligence” is some sort of elite club and everyone else is a zombie isn’t exactly the friendliest vibe to give off, to say the least.
I’m well aware of what I said. And you have no credibility in this particular conversation because you chose NOT to defend Morticia against the baseless and vicious attacks she was being subjected to for NO REASON AT ALL. Had you defended her in the slightest against the zombies I would have listened to you now, but as it stands you can forget it.
Wow, Anniee, you seem to be very…sympathetic to poor Morticia. Interesting.
I don’t have time to defend trolls from trolls.
First she said “1984 isn’t fiction anymore”, then said
“MorticiaAddams says:
September 4, 2009 at 7:53 pm
Why would you say that? Seriously. That’s just ridiculous. There are LOTS of people, particularly the dude with 21 kids for whom we are paying, who should be. If I’m paying for the kids he has, fine. But the trade off is that he shouldn’t be allowed to have any more until he can pay for them himself. Which ain’t gonna happen.”
I’m sorry, but any small defense she might have gotten from me spotting an improper attack is gone. And I doubt the zombies would’ve shown up at all if Morticia hadn’t been so haughty and arrogant and ignored everyone else’s point about the issue, and instead kept blaring her own one and how very RIGHT it was.
Igor, you’re acting like an idiot.
Life is what it is. Suck it up and deal, change it, or off yourelf.
Pretty straightforward.
Did you just seriously tell a 16 year old to kill himself? Tell me Ms. DeVil, when will your spring line of puppy fur coats be ready?
See my vest? Made of real gorilla chest.
Give her a break, Jane.
After all, I’m about to do the same thing to her.
Morticia, you’re acting like an idiot.
Life is what it is. Suck it up and deal, change it, or get it off on yourself.
Pretty straightforward.
Notice any changes?
And Morticia, I think I’m actually arguing a more jaded world point than you are… Saying that you can work hard and never make it due to circumstances beyond your control vs. If you work hard and change yourself to meet your opportunities, then you’re sure to be successful, it seems like one of us is dealing in reality more than the other…
That is a response in kind. If you’ll happily scroll up through the last hundred-plus and do a simple count of the numbers (or even ratios) of clearly leftist commenters spouting insults versus clearly rightist commenters spouting insults, you’ll find the leftists dominate that category quite massively, culminating in such comments as “Pretty soon you’ll be claiming that the Bible isn’t fiction,” which is not only incredibly dirisive (and statistically absolutely false), but isn’t even on topic. This particular leftist commenter had so few facts on his side to argue against whoever he was responding to that he was left with no recourse but to jump to another commonly held belief by his opponents and fruitlessly bash it as well.
With that said, Anniee, our (dramatic) minority of conservatives on Ye Olde Interwebs (populated primarily by heavily left-indoctrinated college students or recent grads) does not stand to profit in the least by us matching their methods with insults of our own.
While I believe your attacks to be justified, I would call them unproductive, which, merrily, reminds me of a particular Bible verse where Paul writes of Christians’ freedoms “Everything is permissible for me, but not everything is constructive.”
Oh, and that “fictitious” Bible so happens to be several thousand times more historically accurate by any known measure than even the writings of Marx mentioned previously, which were of course written nearly two millenia more recently.
If you’d care to re-read the comments, I’m part of that conversation. I’ve already read them all. Have you read the rest of this comments section, Eso? Because the number of leftie comment writers here kind of evens out.
Actually, I’m pretty sure it was Charro’s example of “crazy things from books that would never happen in actuality” not “Hrrmm, what can I do to prove I don’t have facts?” Not saying I support Bible-bashing, but it wasn’t a lack of facts. Charro chooses not to bash with a logical insult because it was A) a waste of her time and B) SHE is probably sick of it.
Eso, read the freaking posts here. There is actually a damn fair amount of conservatives, especially the conservative frothy trolls that cite blogs as facts. By the way, we have quite a few conservatives here too, you probably just assumed they were leftist. Think Eddie. By the way, Anniee’s post isn’t in any way justified. Just because someone else does it doesn’t mean you should do it back- And we don’t even know what political leaning Morticia is a part of. So you can kiss that “she insulted the Bible because she thinks Republicans believe in it!” theory goodbye.
Oh, and I’d like to see you try to prove the historical accuracy of a book written during Biblical times. You don’t cite any evidence, and yet you still manage to insult a book that I haven’t seen you disprove either. Good job, buddy.
Hush dear! You know you’re a Liberal and you’re supposed to be full of tolerance and acceptance for others not like you and respect their diversity! And quit the cussing at people or I’ll have to give you a spanking- and not the fun type!
Exactly what do you have against Igor that you’re stalking him like this? Can’t you find something better to do than harass a 16 year old?
What’s this, Eric?
And dearest, somebody’s got to do the shitty work. If the trolls get giggles and high fives from other trolls, not a rude rejection, they’ll never realize that this site isn’t for them.
If only you applied the same VIGOR to leftist trolls, we might achieve a balance here.
Look up ” girl scouts”, ctrl-F a guy named “Again”.
Eso I haven’t been on the attack – you’ll know when I am and it doesn’t look like this. I’ve merely been expressing my opinion honestly and truthfully. And so many of the leftard comments here are so glaringly dumb that it is impossible to invest the kind of time and energy it would take to bring that person to a level of understanding to even comprehend the most basic of rebuttals. They just don’t get it. It is an entirely foreign way of thinking for them so I’m left with merely stating my piece and going my way, hoping to converse with the obviously more educated or at least sensible people like Morticia or Dhoti. Now once in a while I go the second mile and make an entire blog post for these people to TRY and help them comprehend in some small way or to some small degree (these are the “zombies” who call all those who think differently “conservatrolls” or “trolls” just for holding a different opinion) and you know what happens when I do that? I’m accused of text-walling for my efforts, or they are simply trampled under some inane insult or ridiculous attempt at humor. It’s exactly what the bible calls casting pearls before swine, and when it comes to this place I am a bit conservative with my pearls nowadays, okay? You’ll find out how much point there is to making the attempt yourself – you’re not going to get them to understand anything so might as well have a little fun sparring and meeting the few intelligent or thoughtful people who do come here and encouraging them to stay so that in the end there’s a little *balance* around here. We’ve already seem to have lost the worst of the worst of the lefties – Fister – and that’s made the board a much nicer place already. Imagine how nice it will be when the instant a conservative opens his mouth he is not derided and mocked ceaselessly, or at least if there are just as many of them as there are hard communist leftists here. It can happen; we are not a minority online or in real life; we’re just used to sitting in the back of the bus. No more. Not for me, and not for a lot of people. The grownups are going to be heard from again, and we’re not taking a back seat anymore.
It’s a goddamn LOL site. Get over yourself. Sheesh.
To quote an oldie but goodie: “Pissing. In. The. Wind.”
Pissing in the wind…. I’m still pissing in the wind… I’m older now, but still pissing… iiiiiiin the wiind.
” … hoping to converse with the obviously more educated or at least sensible people like Morticia or Dhoti.”
*loses power of speech*
Oh, unless you mean “least sensible,” then I get it.
Piggypat, considering you’re no more than one of the zombies I spoke of earlier, did you really expect that to sting? Morticia is worth twenty of you.
I’m sure you’d think that.
Yay, so glad to have you around. When else to I get called a pig and a zombie, not to mention in the same sentence! It’s kind of, well, exciting.
Did it make you tingly in your norty parts, Pitty?
Made my narts ping and my torts part!
Is that what we’re talking about tort reform, pitty?
I’m tingly knowing pitty’s tingly.
rightl you’re nothing but a worthless tingly statist sucker sucking on the tingly state teat i mean have you even READ the tingly tort reform bill you poopy zombie piggy poop you looooooaaaathe liberty ohmygod i want to be with SANE people so everybody i mean um dhoti and eric oh not you rando but dhoti come to froth froth dot froth where we can …
Can you read, dude? And I don’t mean with your lefty lenses.
Can you think, Morticia?
And don’t use the phrase “It is what it is.”
WELL OH MY GOD I SEE THE LIGHT! IT ISN’T WHAT IT IS!!!!
What does that mean anyway? It is what it is? How profound.
it is what it is:
1.(literally, sometimes philosophical) This thing has its own distinct nature; this thing is itself.
1690, John Locke, An Essay Concerning Human Understanding:
That every thing has a real constitution, whereby it is what it is, and on which its sensible qualities depend, is past doubt.
2. (idiomatic) This circumstance is simply a fact and must be accepted or dealt with as it exists.
1926, “La Semaine du Parlement,” Time, 8 Mar.:
I shall not criticize the Treaty of Versailles. It is a fact. It is what it is.
3. Catchphrase used by your typical chucklehead working for a hedge fund.
::ahem::
” . . . and on which its sensible qualities depend, is past doubt.”
Isn’t that an important point? IS. PAST. DOUBT.
Hey! Philosophy major! I said ” Supersize ” it! Where’s my fries?!
You’ve been pwned all right.
If you think a nanny state with *subjects* instead of free citizens is funny, well I’m sorry but I **don’t** agree with you at all. I see nothing funny about the loss of liberty inherent in becoming a subject and a child. I desire peace but I love liberty more – if there is no liberty I can guarantee you there will be a lack of peace because too many of us are not going to settle for it, and that IS just a fact.
That’s nice.
Not especially. But whatever – it is what it is.
“But whatever – it is what it is.”
Gee, that looks familiar; I wonder where, and from whom, I’ve read that?
Ya know, I noticed several similarities in two posters’ writing style, and now the turn of phrase is borrowed. Oh, I’m sure you just read that phrase a lot today, too, so it’s uppermost in your mind, r i i i ght?
“so that in the end there’s a little *balance* around here.”
Hmmmmm.
You’re not the only one who thought that.
LOL! I notice a similare posting style to many of the lefties here… does that mean you’re all the same person?
I’m a God-fearing libertarian, FWIW. I want to be able to shoot your ass while you’re stealing my pot.
*adds “God-fearing libertarian” to list of traits and chuckles in wonder*
With as many people who profess to be libertarians on the internet, I’m surprised we still have a two party system. Although, in this case I’m pretty sure we got two for the price of one, ya know?
SHE VOTEZ TWICE! SHES FRUM TEH ACORN!!!
*slaps Rando for his use of LOLspeak*
It was appropriate.
Why was that necessary. Maybe I’m not a “true” libertarian, but you’re definitely not a “true” conservative, either. I’m not dissing you for being a social liberal, now am I?
? Where did you get that I was dissing you for anything other than having circular logic and bad argumentative skills?
And I don’t believe I have expressed my particular political orientation recently, so chalk up another mark on the list *licks pencil tip and writes “knows far too much insider info for a newbie lurker with no ulterior motives”*
Oh, wait, I did diss you for having a very narrow and naive view of the world. My apologies for forgetting that.
Where did I say I was a “newbie lurker?” I’ve been here since the site started, chuckling over the discussions. I just haven’t posted, because I never felt like it before. The health care issue interests me, is all.
So I have to ask, what “circular logic” and “bad argumentative skills?” With whom am I arguing?
How is it any more narrow and naive than anyone eise? I see what everyone else is saying, and I never said I didn’t empathize, I’m just a realist and don’t see any reason to be anything other than that.
Considering we’ve had numerous healthcare debates in the recent past, that excuse just doesn’t hold water. And your argumentative skills to date have consisted of “It is what it is”, “I can’t change the facts”, “I’m sorry the truth offends you so viscerally”, and other statements that aren’t backed up by a single cite, fact, or shred of evidence outside of your own anecdotal life story. That’s not just bad argumentative skills, it’s also lazy.
As far as having a narrow and naive world view, your arguments (some are listed above) don’t allow for any type of variable in the equation of life. You’re putting forth a Capitalist society as what we have, when in fact, we have a weird mixture of capitalism and socialism that has really never been seen before. If we had true capitalism, your statements might be slightly more true, but would still not allow for those who just aren’t able.
Your naivete stems from the fact that you seem to be categorically unable to accept any other worldview other than your own as relevant, even though there are plenty of people in this world living under a different perception of the world that is based on their own personal experience, much as your perception of the world is based on your personal experience. That doesn’t make either person wrong, but it does make for a very arrogant and condescending argument when either person on either side assumes that their way is the only way, and because of a certain set of rules they imagine the world to function under (yours is Capitalism and nothing else), everyone else’s world view must be invalid.
Your bootstrap theory (and life) has merit, there is no doubt about that. No one here has dissed the need for hard work and education in order to to better in life. The fact remains, however, that there are myriad people in this world who have worked hard and have the education who are just not in a position to do any better than they’re doing at this moment. That could stem from having a family that they can’t just uproot to look for another job; it could stem from not having the monetary funds available to uproot and move for another opportunity; it could stem from having a serious illness that prevents any type of movement or advancement in their current position because of physical limitations. There are so many variables in this life that one person saying “It is what it is and I’m sorry about that, just work harder and you’ll do better” sounds silly on the face of it, and sounds cruel when you start getting into the nitty gritty of how people actually live.
You post as a very intelligent individual, Morticia. You are well-spoken and seem to understand the world as seen through your eyes. I just hope that you will be able to see the world through the eyes of others one day. It opens up so much more room in your heart when that becomes possible. It’s not necessary to sacrifice your own ideals or manner of thinking in order to do that, but it does allow you to understand why another person might not have the same view of the world as you do.
“That’s not just bad argumentative skills, it’s also lazy”
Change that to “It’s not just arguing badly, it’s laziness.”
Texting has ruined my English skills *sigh*
*standing ovation*
I find it highly unlikely that ANYONE would lurk and read the comments on a regular enough basis to know who the regulars are and information about them for A YEAR AND A HALF without saying one single word until now. I smell the distinct smell of bullshit.
Nicely done, froo.
I work hard dammit! I got an education! But they won’t let me out of this damn white jacket to go find a job! I told them they killer Heidi midgets would go away if I could just get a job! But they wont undo the four points long enough for me to fill out an application! RAWR!
Yes.
I control them, Morticia.
ALL OF THEM.
Yes.
He controls us, Morticia.
ALL OF US.
I pulled out my marionette strings and was promptly stitched up with red vines.
Red Vines? Hey cool. *nomnomnom*
So true – so please – arrest all the people squirting out kids that don’t provide healthcare for them and somehow expect that I should. In fact, aren’t there laws against child endangerment? If someone isn’t providing for their off-spring and ask the state to do so, isn’t that neglect? If they squirt out more kids when they can’t take care of the ones they have, isn’t that neglect? Shouldn’t we just arrest them and take their kids form them? And in case you’re wondering, yes I am serious – very serious. I’m quite tired of paying the bills for everyone else.
What you’re suggesting is very dangerous territory. You don’t want the government forcing you to pay for other people’s care, but you DO want the government dictating how big someone’s family should be? Now THAT sound dangerous, bro.
Correct. Humans deserve veterinary care as necessary.
“Don’t forget to spay and neuter yourselves as well as your pets.”
“Shut up Bob!”
Do it yourself, Bob!
{http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlwGRIiVHeI}
Ivan, you totally rule for that link.
Robot Chicken Rules. But thank you.
A doctor is basically just a veterinarian who only works on one species…
And you win one internet for that comment!
Too true. Veterinarians must have to learn [b]much[/b] more than human MDs, because they need to help all kinds of different species, and not even just mammals, either. They could probably work as human MDs, too, because humans aren’t much different from most other mammals, and they are used to treating patients of all kinds of species already, anyway.
Oops! Forgot where I was there. much. I had used the wrong code there…
I miss socks the first cat.. *sigh*
Lets start by fixing all non citizens.
Dis kitteh shud run for Presside…prezi…Chief Executive. I votz for him!
No, this isn’t ICHC. STOP IT IMMEDIATELY! No LOLspeak allowed in Pundit Kitchen! *sobbing hysterically*
Ivan can has you thin asia?
. . . or prefers youth in asia.
Either way.
Word. (Not Wurd. Not Woared. Not Werd. Not . . . )
pittypat, you remind me of someone on another board. A very cool cucumber.
Well now I’m just pickled tink.
Excuse me. I am a visitor from “the other side.” I have learned my lesson. No lolspeak on this side. Gotcha.
It’s cool. I believe in second chances.
bitter troll does not…well ok, he does..
Well, as long as you’ve learned your lesson. *takes Lucy’s mom off the death panels*
bitter troll wonders if she can be invited to church cult of cheesus
Sounds like a gouda idea…
*rim-shot*
Dude, that’s gross. Why would you talk about that here?
Oh. Rim SHOT. My bad.
now we know why rando’s tongue is brown
I like chocolate milkshakes.
bitter troll’s milkshake brings all the boys to the yard
And charro too. Don’t forget it brings charro to the yard.
bitter troll is a female??!!
Go. Now. Go immediately. We can’t be held responsible for the mocking you are about to receive.
It’s LOLdithpeakable!
I don’t know about you but I’m LOLdithguthted!
I would vote for him/her, too. If I weren’t Canadian; and if the cat had a reasonable green energy policy.
Because people don’t have owners.
You’re obviously not married.
Jebus wons the hoomans, thus its god’s duty (snickers…dooty) to provide medical care! forward all your medical bills to your local church
i wish it worked that way… it’d be so funny.
there actually is a church organisation tht members pay into (probably more than one). It works somewhat like insurance, but it isn’t one, based on this principle. Damned if I can remember what it’s called, though
the amish do that. the entire community pays like $10 per person per month into a general pool. when someone gets sick the keeper of the funds pays the bills. if it’s an extended hospital stay or something like that, there is an ombudsman who will go in on behalf of the community to negotiate down the costs.
however, i was focusing on the local catholic church receiving my bills from my birth control. i thought it’d be funny.
it’s a CO-OP. They’ve worked well for other countries. The major ones in America have turned from NON-profit into FOR-profit though. Example being BlueCross.
Right. I have a $350 vet bill today, can subby please tell me exactly what government program will pay for it? I am completely unfamiliar with the “free” veterinary care that this photo alludes to.
/Nice try – but I doubt many people are as stupid as you obviously think they are.
It’s not about health care being free, it’s about availability and affordability. We have our priorities all mixed up. I’ve worked at a specialty pet store, aisles and aisles of food for pets, many of them more expensive than basic human food and yet most people wouldn’t spare any change for a hungry vagrant standing outside in the cold.
If you care so much about an animal that you would spend $350 on it for one vet visit, why not care for your FELLOW humans?
If being smart means being unkind to my fellow man, I’d rather be stupid.
this is a stance that a lot of people won’t like and i know i’ll get flamed for.
but the $350 i spend on my pet is money that i’m choosing to spend on my pet that i chose to adopt/own. the issue that most people are having with this healthcare plan is that we have NO choice in whether or not we’re paying into it. it will come out of our taxes (which will be raised to cover the costs) whether we use the service or not. and if you choose not to pay the portion of your taxes that would cover the plan – the IRS will probably have some choice words for you.
choice is the problem with the plan. this is something that should be voted on across the country – like a presidential election. fat chance that will happen though.
Who wouldn’t want affordable health insurance? Car insurance is also mandatory, btw.
i have affordable health insurance. i don’t want to pay for mine and yours.
That’s great that you have affordable health insurance. Wait, I meant it’s great that you have ACCESS to affordable health insurance. But I don’t have ACCESS to affordable health insurance. And millions upon millions of folks out there don’t have access to it either. The system is broke, and it needs to be fixed.
i fully support there being the public option but definitely NOT under the incarnation it is being proposed in.
basically, i’m an evil evil person and want to keep the money i make. i do not want to deprive you or anyone else of the option to have insurance… i just don’t want to be forced to pay for it.
How about forcing the insurance companies to offer affordable insurance to those people who work for small companies or are self-employed and have the dreaded pre-existing conditions?
If I were to go out on my own to get insurance, those companies wouldn’t want to cover my asthma, etc, etc. And yet I need regular doctor visits to keep all of those things in control…and to keep me out of the ER.
i work for an insurance company… so i understand why we don’t insure small companies and such. but that’s just my company. we’re small ourselves (under 100 employees). we don’t own any networks and the fees we would have to pay in order to get coverage for a single person would make it completely absurd to the client. however, the BUCAS (blues, united, cigna, anthem/aetna) are more than capable of covering these individuals and i think they should.
but this is still entirely different than the “obamacare” being presented. this is insurance reform… that’s a healthcare plan. apples to oranges.
and as for regular visits for things… i see a specialist every 3 months. i understand the preventative care. and a few of my conditions almost ruled me out based on pre-existing condition clauses. the key to avoiding getting excluded that way is that you can not have a diagnosed condition go untreated for x-period of time. it’s not just having that condition. so in your case… if you knew you had asthma but didn’t go to the doctor at all in 2 years you’d fall under a pre-existing exclusion. but if you go to the doctor every 1 year and 364 days, you’re fine. you’re being “treated”.
Well that has obviously changed since I had to pay for my own health insurance…thankfully 15 years in my past. Because HMO Blue’s various exclusions back then meant that I was pretty much only covered for broken bones, heart attacks and car accidents.
yeah, they had to change things like that because people sued. a lot.
Working for an insurance company (especially a small one like you explained in the middle of a recession), i can understand why you would be against ‘obamacare’.
Just take out the (parenthesis).
ps. Obama hasn’t even seen a bill yet, why are people calling it ‘obamacare’?
Ahhh…maybe because he is the one pushing the passing of a healthcare bill??
If Obama hasn’t even seen the bill yet, then why is he heralding it as the greatest thing since sliced bread and something that has to be passed NOW OR THE SKY WILL FALL AND PEOPLE WILL DROP LIKE FLIES IN THE STREET!!!!!!!! ?
Seems like that’s not something I’d admit.
Two houses of congress are trying to get two separate bills passed, neither of which have been written or voted on yet. It’d be impossible for him to have seen one, they don’t exist yet. If one passes either house, then the President decides if he’ll sign it into law. You really should know this stuff.
He’s pressing health reform because every democrat wants health reform, congress is actually writing what people are referring to as ‘obamacare’
I do know this stuff. I’m saying that Obama is coming off as an ass by saying “My healthcare bill…” when he hasn’t even seen a finished copy, much less read what is in the thing. That’s extremely dangerous, and stupid.
Well he is talking about “His healthcare bill” he never said anything about the one that congress is pushing… He’s merely stating what HE wants in the bill…
I’m just playing devil’s advocate here, but that’s the way it seems to me.. If there’s not a bill written, that he hasn’t read, and he’s referring to “His healthcare bill” he must logically be talking about the healthcare bill he’d like to sign into effect.
Id’ be very happy if they’d even read the damn thing before trying to sign it into law (I’m speaking about everyone in Congress and the White House). I feel it’s very wreckless to push this bill through as quickly as they wanted to push it through (I had visions of the Bush TARP bill needing to be passed RIGHT NOW OR THE WORLD WILL END!!!!!!!111!!1!!11!!!!) as opposed to actually getting the entire thing together first, reading it, refining it, and making it something worthwhile.
And what happened to the promise about posting final bills for 5 days on the internet so the American people could read them before signing them into law? I don’t think that’s happened yet!
Well that’s my first scruple with Obama froo, he made a campaign promise he had NO jurisdiction over. He’s perfectly capable of posting a bill 5 days before he signs it, which he does do, HOWEVER, he has no say or bearing on what congress posts before THEY vote and pass something.
I almost face palmed when he made that promise and I’m facepalming now because I knew he couldn’t hold up.
The White House has posted every bill that Obama has signed for 5 days on the internet, but he had no way of making congress posting THEIR bills before they pass them.
He could have worded it differently, but he didn’t, just look at it like this: At least we have a president that’s pushing for helping the public more so than trying to “liberate” another country’s public, or eliminate a “threat” to us?
Because that’s how talking points work…
Why? Do you think every single benefit and privilege you got in your life wasn’t contributed to, at least in part, by society?
oh no, i’m well aware that many things are paid for by taxes and that it’s not only my taxes. however i HAVE NO NEED WHATSOEVER for the plan and do not want to be FORCED to pay for it.
put a box on the tax forms… i’ll gladly check the one that says “do not deduct money for the public healthcare plan and i will not use the services of it at all”. if i were a nutjob who lived in the hills and didn’t have a car and electricity, etc… i wouldn’t really want to pay taxes for the roads either.
if it’s something i will NEVER use… why on earth am i paying for it? the crazy thing about taxes are that they’re filled out each year. if i choose this year not to pay for it and not to use it then i won’t. but if i lose my job and decide i need it next year i can check the box that says i’ll pay. but like hell i’m going to just flush money away on something i’ll NEVER use.
I’m guessing your job has no risk of sudden downsizing-style unemployment.
for the most part no… i work in health insurance.
however, if the obamacare goes through the entire industry might go under. which is why we’re keeping a pretty close eye on what’s going on.
Coming from someone who’s had state medical, and a private insurance via a job, no one in the right minds would choose a govt medical over private insurance.
Sure the quality of care for the most part isn’t too much different (thankfully), but you’re limited on where you can go (many doctors,dentists, etc, don’t accept it), what you can do, what medicines to take. Sure generic brands do work most of the time, but there is the rare occasion that the name brand actually has something slightly different from the generic, which is what you actually need, but the insurance won’t cover it.
I honestly don’t think the insurance industry would go under. Obama did make one comment that summed it up nicely. UPS, and FED EX do just fine, regardless of the fact we have the govt run USPS which is cheaper. USPS has the most trouble.
While I’m not entirely certain from what I’ve been reading, that things are being handled entirely correctly, there does need to be reform, and a public option.
The way I see it, is if everyone has access to medical, and not just the extreme poor, or those who actually make enough to afford insurance, then there will be less trips to the E.R., which are costly, and since there are many who can’t afford to pay those bills, the amount that is charged for the E.R. is insanely high. So perhaps if everyone is covered the cost may go down?
If everyone has access to prevenative care, affordable prescriptions (even albuterol inhalers are getting expensive), etc, costs all over may be able to go down, and then private insurances may even be able to hand out more affordable plans to people. Meaning even more business for them.
I looked at blue shield not too long ago. Their “affordable” plans basically covered very very little. Not to mention with asthma, and whatnot I was considered too high of a risk of actually, you know, USING the medical, so I was denied anyhow. Nevermind the fact that I’ve not had an asthma attack in quite some time and I’ve been keeping it under control. The public option would help those otherwise denied for pre-existing conditions. Or other problems they’ve had in the past, nevermind the fact those problems have been completely resolved, but because you had them in the first place they don’t want you.
Here’s a hypothetical for you. Suppose that “I choose not to use it” option were available. But by selecting it, you would NEVER be able to use it. You’ll never be taxed for it, but you’ll never EVER be eligible for it. Are you confident that nothing will ever happen to your job, your coverage? Would you still choose not to pay out and select that option, knowing that if you lose your job, you’ll have to pay for your own coverage?
in that situation, i don’t know. but because taxes are done on a yearly basis and most people reevaluate their deductions, etc on that yearly basis i don’t see how that hypothetical situation would come to be.
i say that i work for a health insurance company… i’m also a (very) small business owner. i have a company that i’ve started, i’m the only person working for it but i manage the career of a violinist. eventually, i intend on having more artists and being able to leave my “day job”. at that point i will need to get insurance through other means… but i the public option would not be viable for me due to my conditions. my medications alone are well over $10,000 a year before insurance negotiated rates bring them down… the public option will not cover this. i would either have to have the public option and pay cash for my meds, or pay for a private option that includes the negotiation for the medications. in either case, the public option would not be doing what i need it to do.
however, if we did insurance reform and had the BUCAS take on the small businesses and entrepreneurs and individuals… these rates are already in place. the networks are in place. people can get all the care they need and not have to use a public option that doesn’t cover all the bases.
How about “I didn’t use it during the tax year I’m filing for.”?
yeah, what diss said. seeing as how you file for the year you just finished…
and if you check that box and don’t pay for it and then they (the IRS or whatever other ABC organization they create to oversee this sort of thing) find out you did use it they get to mercilessly tax you until it’s paid back.
So do you believe that you shouldn’t be taxed on ANYTHING you don’t use? Because it amounts to the same thing.
On a side note, I’m LOVING that we are having a rational discussion about this, and we aren’t calling each other names, or being assholes about it. It also helps that shortright is my goddess.
seeing as how i use (or at least benefit from) all the other public services my taxes are going to, i’m ok with it.
however, as i mentioned before… if i were a recluse who lived in the woods off the land, never used roads, etc but still paid my taxes… i’d be pretty pissed having to pay for all the additional services i’ve never used.
oh, and… you’re a jackass! there, i called you a name. now it’s an official PK discussion!
How are we going to pay for the public option if only the people using it are paying for it? If the burden is put all on them, then the price of it would likely be outrageous and they’re the ones who likely couldn’t pay for it in the first place.
Careful… the pedestal is teetering!
you agree health insurance is overpriced and only manageable by something bigger than you. in your case your only option is an insurance company. your situation seems to work for you, thats good. the only purpose of this major health care reform is for people that aren’t as lucky as you. people that have your same condition but have no way of treating it.
not to compare health issues, but my brother has had major health problems for over two decades. He used to live in the states where he paid $2000-3000 per month for just insurance, nevermind medications, treatments, etc. He now lives in Austria, a country with a public option and his costs are much MUCH less. So where do you get that you will suddenly have to be paying out the ass with a public option? Have you read the bill to see that what you need will not be covered?
You are happy with the way things are and you don’t want higher taxes: point taken, but far from a decent argument to solve a real problem.
“if it’s something i will NEVER use… why on earth am i paying for it?”
Just a minor point.
At the federal and state level, most road funding is, and all of it should be, drawn from user fees (gas taxes, excise taxes on tires, excise and highway use taxes on trucks, license/registration fees, tolls, etc).
A much better interstate example for your don’t use/don’t pay scenario would be Army Corp of Engineers type projects such as levee projects and dams that are generally not supported by direct user fees, not to be confused with most of the Bureau of Reclamation and TVA type projects are paid for by user fees.
Of course roads, ArmyCorp, BuRec, and TVA projects can’t even hold a candle to all of the local pork projects that have no business being funded by federal taxes.
. . . projects *that* are paid for . . .
“But I don’t have ACCESS to affordable health insurance.”
Please explain/elaborate. This is a pretty profound statement to not support with some details (age, location, smoker/drinker, current state of health, income, quoted rate for coverage, companies that refused you coverage).
I’d love to understand your situation, but details help.
It’s the affordable part that I believe is the point here.
Well, ACCESS was all-capped, affordable wasn’t. Regardless though, elaborate on access or elaborate on affordable.
Get a decent job and you’ll have the option of affordable insurance. Suck it up, sport.
Not all decent jobs offer affordable insurance. Suck up the facts, sparky.
And not all decent jobs with affordable insurance are available for everyone.
They are if you want to work hard enough. And put yourself into debt to go to school. That’s the facts, whether you like it or not.
That’s a very narrow view of the world. Getting a good job with good insurance and all the perks isn’t as simple as getting a degree. A lot of it depends on your location, the availability of good jobs, the number of applicants with the same qualifications as you have, and good old fashioned luck. I’ve seen highschool dropouts with better jobs than I have, so the old canard about getting the degree to make it doesn’t work either.
With the world being the way it is, and specifically the American economy being in the crapper, the jobs that offer a lot of perks and good insurance just aren’t there for everyone. Those are the facts, whether you like it or not.
If you have cites to back up what you’re claiming about putting yourself in debt to go to school and hard work being what you need to get a good job, please, by all means, post them so I can follow up and get myself a better job.
You won’t like this, but put your name out there and move. I don’t like it either, but it is what it is.
Considering that I live in a state with one of the lowest unemployment rates in the Union, considering that people are moving TO my state to find jobs, I’m afraid you’ll have to try harder than that.
I’m not trying anything. I’m merely pointing out that fact that crying about it isn’t furthering your personal growth. No one else can change it but you. Sorry, but them’s the breaks.
Yeah, stop all your crying froofrou. Since that’s what you’re doing.
I can work on my personal growth until the cows come home. With the national unemployment rate hovering around 10%, and the actual rate somewhere near 20% if you count “discouraged” job seekers, there simply aren’t jobs out there.
In my state the jobless rate is still very low. However, there is still a jobless rate, which means that there isn’t a job out there for everyone. At my company, I can personally attest to there not being enough jobs for the applicants, both in skilled and unskilled labor.
Just because you have three degrees and have moved to whatever state you choose in order to get a job doesn’t guarantee that you will, in fact, get that job, nor does it guarantee that you will keep it. Also, there are a lot of people out there who know of jobs out of state who can’t go seek them because of their current financial or family situations.
It’s folly to try and lump everything under the heading of “well you’re just not working hard enough!” It isn’t always that way. Sometimes there are just no jobs with the benefits that you need. Sometimes those jobs that do offer benefits don’t offer them in such a way for them to be affordable. Ask Rando about his job and insurance situation. He’s got a good job, but his insurance basically sucks.
Also, putting yourself into debt in order to further an education isn’t always possible for people, especially if they have bad credit, or due to the economy, have ruined their credit trying to make ends meet with a credit card that they now can’t pay off. Not everyone is a moocher. Some people just get kicked in the nads by life.
I am sorry the truth offends you so viscerally.
Nowhere did I accuse this poster of crying about it. I assumed everyone here was using “you” in the hypothetical sense, as the plural of data isn’t anecdote.
“put your name out there and move.” And leave behind family and friends? Do you know how hard it is to pick up and move with a family? My family acts as babysitter very often, and we’d be lost without the help we’ve gotten from my wife’s family. You have a very callous worldview.
And it’s “the plural of anecdote isn’t data.” Get it right.
And this is helping how? Is burning your strawman keeping you all warm and fuzzy?
This isn’t my worldview. It simply IS.
Well, there is the old adage “it’s not who you know but who you blow.”
Again, I’m sorry it upsets you so. It merely is the way of the world. Complaining isn’t changing, even though they start and end with the same letter.
Your argument is circular. The world is this way.. because you say so? You haven’t provided any evidence other than your own say so. This is your worldview, and it is not shared, or correct.
So… how’s your way workin’ for ya?
Wow, you really can’t read, can you?
Nor can you. No one else is helpin’ ya, now, are they?
Morticia, can you say Reductio Ad Absurdum? Your logic is so circular that I can’t even imagine the conclusions you must come to in daily life. “Well, I got a job after I moved. Therefore, after you study in school and look for a job, all you have to do is move! That’s not a world view, it’s a TRUTH! I don’t need to cite it or ANYTHING!”
And perhaps no one else is helping Charro because they all got tired of arguing with you and realized you’re an idiot who should be ignored. There’s more than one explanation for the lack of people arguing here, you know…
Where did I remotely connote life was logical? It’s not.
Sometimes one has to change one’s own circumstances to better one’s own life. External forces aren’t going to do that for you, and waiting for luck will simply make you bitter and broke.
I didn’t make the system, kiddo. It is what it is, and that’s the reality. Argue with, and abuse me, all you want, it doesn’t change the reality of life in America.
You repeatedly write that “it is what it is” when you haven’t actually shown me any proof of what “it is”. That’s not the way the world works, Morticia, I’m sorry to tell you. You can’t just move away somewhere and get a new job with new health insurance just because you worked really, really hard. The world isn’t fair. The world doesn’t care if you work 15 hours a day and do your best at everything you can professionally. Sure, you might have a lucky break once in a while, but working harder doesn’t mean everything will be all right. Maybe that things *should* be all right for you, but not that they will be. Regardless of what you say, that won’t change the reality that life sucks- you can be doing everything you can to make it suck the least you can, but that doesn’t mean that one day you’ll be living the high life. It doesn’t mean you’ll succeed. It means you’ve lived a life you can be proud of.
Igor old bean, that IS the way the world works, whether you like it or not. If something isn’t working for you, it’s on you to keep trying until you find what fulfills you, shelters you, feeds you, and takes care of your family to your standards, or you give up and complain and wait for someone else to intervene, which, given the nature of America, simply will never happen. You have to go out and get what you want.
You can wait and hope, or you can keep trying until you get what it is you WANT and NEED. That’s the way it is, and the way it always has been: it’s not my personal philosophy, it just IS.
You’re totally missing the point, Morticia. Nobody is saying we shouldn’t work hard. The point is that it is not a foolproof plan to success. Suggesting otherwise is naive. Hard work is just one element of success, and is not always a big element of it. You don’t always reap what you sow. Karma is crap.
Well of course. My life is anecdotal evidence of your assertion, hence my dilemma regarding future plans.
Doesn’t change the fact that no one’s going to intervene on your behalf but you. I’d love a rich uncle to kick-it and float me a windfall, but since that ain’t happening, and I’m in a karma-induced rut, it’s on me. I choose to change myself, and hope that’ll be the ticket to my next iteration of personal success and fulfillment.
Well, dammit, why do you keep insisting that the bootstrap theory is foolproof? That was your whole point at the beginning of this nonsense. None of us are saying that we should just give up because life hasn’t turned out like we planned. We’re just saying that our best efforts don’t get the results you’ve been insisting they get.
I’ve sort of been following this entire discussion and I think what everyone needs to be cognizant of is the measure of success. It isn’t necessarily how much you earn, whether you own a home, or that you have a ton of money in the bank. The real measure of success is whether you are happy with what what you have and how your life is progressing.
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@Eric, froo, charro, and Ty-gor, et al: I sort of understand what Morticia is trying to say, I just don’t think the idea is being conveyed properly. Basically, you do need to change your circumstances if your life isn’t progressing the way you would like. It may not happen today, next week, or even next year. But as long as you have a goal and are moving towards it instead of complacently accepting what life has dealt, you will never succeed. At least, that’s what I’m getting out of it. As always, feel free to tell me I’m full of it if I’m wrong, I won’t be offended.
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@Morticia: Your comment “it is what it is” does come across awful trite. It sounds like you may have a wealth of experience behind you, but don’t discount the fact that other’s have experiences that can’t be trivialized by saying “it is what it is.” Sure, the option for changing one’s situation should be considered. But consider also that the luxury to change things isn’t always available. Otherwise you would have those who are destitute in the cities hoping the first bus out to somewhere else. Just be mindful that not everyone will have opportunities afforded to them that you may have been the recipient of.
Well put, Eddie. That’s why we want to be on YOUR lawn.
-Seeks delicious troll snacks near Eddie’s lawn-
Eddie, your comment is thoughtful and poignant, and I appreciate your insights. I didn’t say I don’t empathize, I merely said we must operate within the parameters of a society not of our creation in order to succeed or succumb. The decision is ours.
Oh Eddie love muffin, I agree with you. At no point have I given up, nor do I *want* to. I know that giving up will get me know where.
But, like you said, it doesn’t GUARANTEE that I will be successful. Telling someone to just work harder and it will work out because “that’s the way it is” is naive, condescending and completely fallacious. That’s what is so annoying about Morticia. She is just assuming her way is right, and it’s the only way, and she is wrong.
Thanks Eds. *hugs* I will always be in your moat.
No, you’re wrong.
Your turn.
You must have majored in Hasty Generalization, I see. Well, your argument is fallacious. I am sorry the truth offends you so viscerally.
Shine my pedestal, serving wench, and take a memo of my quotations. You’re the perfect secretary!
Alas, I offer no health benefits, but there’s always the casting couch in a pinch.
Awww, you’re a cute little retarded troll aren’t ya. Well, I leave you to your delusions of grandeur for another evening. I can only imagine how much more hot air you can use inflate your narcissistic half wit brain over the next 24 hours hours; trolls like you will always be doomed to live in your own insanity filled god complex world. I feel sorry for you, wasting what little brain you have like that. But, since the world we live in is full of selfish people refusing to help the less fortunate, I’ll be like them and let you rot in your own filth. Sleep tight, ignorant little troll.
Aww, it’s so kewt how you froth up to soap my Jimmy Choos while you’re prostrating yourself and memorizing my quotes! As the lol suggests, I think I’ll keep you and take you to the vet as needed!
-Sighs at Morticia and heads for the punching bag in the basement-
Well, at least we tried… It just seems that her sense of self-importance is all consuming.
Frankly, I’m sick of the whole thing. There’s a brick wall over there that I’m hoping to have a better conversation with.
No, those aren’t facts. There simply aren’t enough decent jobs with decent insurance for everyone.
Yes there are, if you are willing to make it happen. That’s the breaks, kid. No sense crying about it.
Wow you’re incredibly naive about how the world works, aren’t you?
As are you. Personal responsibility = success. Embrace that philosophy. Student loans and subsidized tuition for those willing to bust their asses are a hand up, not a hand out.
Any anecdotal evidence I have regarding my personal situation (and those in my acquaintance circles) will merely be dismissed with contempt, thus I offer none.
Um, thanks, but I have student loans and I have busted my ass. Quit assuming I’m talking about myself. The fact of the matter is, you’re assuming that everyone can get a good job with benefits if they work hard enough and the truth is they can’t. Anecdotes or not, it just isn’t feasible.
Again, sorry the truth offends you on such a basic level. You may want to stay off the internets.
I’m still waiting on information about how to find these jobs you’re speaking of. And how a degree helps you get them. And how moving out of state and working your fingers to the bone will assure your success.
Hahahahaha, you keep saying “truth” like if you say it enough I’ll believe you. Well, you’re wrong. About me being offended and about you spouting the truth. because you’re not.
She doesn’t have them froo, it’s just the truth. CAN’T YOU READ?!
Curses!! Foiled by logic again!
My point exactly. Rather than taking the initiative to discover opportunities yourself you’re waiting for someone else to take care of that and provied those opportunities for you. And take care of you.
What a shame.
I’m simply asking where you get your information. If you’ve put forth your theories or opinions on how to make it in this world, you must have a way to back them up. Otherwise, you’re simply using anecdotal evidence to back up a claim. If I had put forth the presumption that hard work = a good job with good benefits, then it would be up to me to prove that statement. As I didn’t, then it’s up to you to prove it.
Your logic fails to hold up in the face of scrutiny.
No, my point is one with which I am certain you can agree. If you don’t like your situation, do everything in your power to change it to a situation of your liking. Move, take classes, make yourself more marketable: it’s ultimately up to you as an individual rather than you succumbing to and blaming outside forces.
Again, that’s the way life really is.
Let me ask you a question: Have you ever had something happen to you that was out of your control? An illness, a parent dying, a child breaking a bone?
You can’t control everything, and a volitile job market where there just aren’t enough to go around isn’t something that the average person can just wish away. It takes hard work, yes, but you can’t discount the need for simple luck in finding something that will keep you above the poverty line.
Unless you’re God and can control everything, and if you are, You and I need to have a talk.
I’m not sure how to make it more clear than I have. My life has been beyond sh!tty at certain points: I have survived substantial adversity, as have we all. Revealing it here, at this juncture, would simply seem over the top.
It hasn’t diminished my absolute certainty that each of us is ultimately the master of our own destiny.
The only way you can master your own job destiny is by owning your own business. Even then you’re under the thumb of the economy.
Getting a great job with great benefits is dependant on OTHER PEOPLE, and when there are other people in the equation, you can’t master the entire thing. You have to depend on others, even in a small way, to see that you’re the best candidate for the job, to see that your education is worthwhile, and to see that you would be worthwhile out of the 15 people applying for one opening.
You can’t completely master your own destiny unless you’re alone in the world, and I believe there is a saying about no man being an island unto himself.
Yes, I guess I should take responsibility for all the things that have gone wrong career wise. I take responsibility for the fact that my store manager can’t stand me even though my other managers love me. I take responsibility for the fact that the old store manager lied and promised me a position that has been handed to other people. That’s all my fault. Somehow. I guess I could get another job. Except that I need this one to remain flexible with my schedule and I can’t lose my insurance between jobs (don’t you dare say COBRA, fvck that shit). Yeah, that’s all my fault.
Oh fvck you. I hate people like you. Let me guess, you’re living the dream, so everybody else, no matter what their life is like can live the dream too, right? I DID go to school, get my degree, and I was never able to get so much as an interview in my fvcking field so I’ve spent the last 8 years since graduating in fvcking retail. I did work hard enough, and still got nowhere. Not everything is under our control, you festering ass pimple. Geez.
More rudeness. How intriguing.
You’re really making yourself appear intelligent. Nice work, and I can see why you’re in your situation. Again, it’s a shame, since you seem intelligent.
You’re being condescending. Not everyone has had it good. I’m not placing the blame for bad behavior on circumstances, but what if you’ve done everything right? What if you have the degree, you have the job skills, you’re in the right place, and there simply isn’t a job for you?
What if you don’t have the money to chase that job in another state?
What if your credit is bad enough that you can’t get a loan to chase a job, or to go back to school?
What if you’ve looked everywhere, and there simply isn’t anything out there?
You can’t control everything, Morticia. And it’s condescending and rude to imply that a human being can.
Then you keep trying. Or give up. Complaining does what?
I think what your sensing is the frustration Rando is feeling. As it has been mentioned previously, hard work will get you the dream job, when what it really comes down to is being in the right place at the right time, and knowing someone is an even bigger bonus. I’ve been extremely fortunate in my career, but it would be unfair for me to thump my chest and say, “Do it like me!” I know lot’s of people in my field (not to be confused with the lawn Jane, Charro, and shortright) that had to endure months of of unemployment before they found anything that would pay enough to live on.
I believe you may live a charmed life, it’s a shame everyone can’t.
But that’s not what you said previously, Morticia. You said (without qualifiers) that working hard and having a degree will assure you a good job with good benefits. You’re trying to change the argument now into one about complaining about your life circumstance, and that’s not what you were talking about before. No one is arguing about complaining being a good or bad thing.
I am plenty intelligent, but I think the whole “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” thing is a load of crap. And you haven’t exactly endeared yourself to any of us with your callous, condescending comment either.
No, not charmed in the least. Again, no discussion about my personal circumstances. Let’s just say I am teetering at a precipice regarding the many years of work/study I am facing, and the fact I already pulled myself up to this point. You seem the gentleman, eddie, and I appreciate it.
And that unemployment came after long term employment, with a good company who had great benefits that I got because of my experience and education that did a Reduction In Workforce and hundreds of people got laid off. Including me. After being laid off, I couldn’t afford COBRA on my unemployment after severance ran out, I was denied private insurance due to preexisting conditions and finally found a job after months of faithfully searching everywhere I possibly could to find a job that would support me. All I could find was a temp job, can’t re-up COBRA and no insurance. Now I am permanently employed, but still no insurance until I pass 60 days. I’m in the process of filing for bankruptcy, and you cannot apply for credit when filing. That includes student loans. So, school is out. Plus, I have a degree. It would take several years to get another degree and I need a job now. Unemployment runs out and it wasn’t enough. I need insurance because I am sick. I live in the Chicago area where unemployment is very high and jobs are scarce. I cannot move until my bankruptcy is sorted out.
I make too much to qualify for public aid and still am denied private insurance. Keep telling me I’m not trying, and that you’re the shining light of truth. You’re not.
Truth hurts. You may want to seek medical assistance.
FWIW, I do plan to go back to school at some point in the future since my current degree is worthless. I made the mistake in my youth to actually study something I thought I’d like doing instead of studying something that actually had jobs available. Naturally they don’t tell you that when you’re signing up for classes. Right now that just isn’t feasible. I don’t expect good things to happen to me without hard work, but I’ve always worked hard and it’s never gone anywhere for me.
Can’t afford medical assistance.. Did you miss that part? I was denied private insurance and don’t qualify for public aid.
You’re still not the shining light of truth despite your obviously delusional belief that you are.
Nice attitude towards charro there, Morticia. You’re nothing more than a troll looking to piss people off. And apparently you can’t think of any better arguments since you keep coming back to “truth hurts” when we pull our life stories that clearly prove you wrong.
Rando, my point is it is what it is, and being bitter about it just makes those we love suffer. I choose to keep trying, because the alternative is to just stop. I’m blessed with another day, and I refuse to let outside forces win.
I wish you luck. And godspeed.
S.A.R.C.A.S.M.
Kind of like YMCA, only not subsidized.
Nobody said to stop trying. Just stop telling us all that we aren’t trying when we quite clearly are. Just because someone isn’t successful doesn’t mean they haven’t put in the effort. There’s NOT a direct correlation between hard work and success unfortunately. It’d be a perfect world if there was.
If you feel compelled to persecute the messenger for the message, asi es la vida.
No one accused any individual of not working hard enough. Keep working harder. Rugged individualism is the nature of the beast.
Sorry you hate that, but that’s America in a nutshell. Rail against it all you want, but that’s the way it is.
Morticia, you’re ignoring the points of everyone else’s points and promoting your own….
Nobody has said “life isn’t fair so I should complain to you guys”, merely that hard work doesn’t necessarily equal success. Separate the two concepts in your head, and you’ll understand. Life doesn’t always give you the opportunities you’d like, and just because you’ve worked hard for a long time doesn’t mean you’ll succeed. It only means you deserve to succeed.
“Life doesn’t always give you the opportunities you’d like, and just because you’ve worked hard for a long time doesn’t mean you’ll succeed. It only means you deserve to succeed.”
Wise beyond your years, kid.
Keep trying.
Keep trying? Is that the best you have? C’mon, get off your ass and WORK for that response! Take the lazy way out and you’ll end up a big fat ass like me…uh…I mean other people who are fat. O_O
I meant to say that too, but I couldn’t think of how to word it. Thanks.
TRUUUUUUUUUUUTH!!!!!!! TRUUUUUUUUUTH!!!!!!! MUUUUUUURRRRRDEEEEERRRRRRRR!!!!!!!
Truth.
Truth, truth.
Truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, froth,
truth, truth, truth, truth, truth, truth.
There. I said it more times than anyone else (yet) in the thread, so now MY side of everything is the TRUTH.
Fvck, I like this way of arguing.
No no, Danbala. *I* am the truth. Because say so. That’s just how it works. I don’t even have a link to a blog or anything cool like that to prove it, I’m just right. ME.
No, Charro, I knew the truth. I knew the truth very well. And you, Charro, are no truth.
CAN’T YOU READ?!?! I AM THE TRUTH *veins in forehead throb* IT SAYS SO ON MY MYSPACE!!!!
MySpace is for pimply-butt losers. Try Facebook.
Someone is butthurt about MySpace, methinks.
?Huh?
So yeah, like fvck off, wankers, cause when I say it is what it is and you should stop whining about, I am saying THE truth.
STFU, Non-truthsayers!
Wow, Danbala, just by saying that it’s the truth you have convinced me that my entire life experience has been a lie. I have seen the light now. *worships Danbala*
See – that wasn’t so hard, was it?
*approves and pats Rando supportingly on the head*
Ivan, that’s not true. you do/did have access to affordable health insurance. it’s called get educated and get a job. i do not know of any public school systems that turn away kids. if you want healthcare stop waiting for someone to provide it for you. grab the reigns and take care of yourself.
Oh, how trite you are! “get educated and get a job”. So pithy. Get this, you pustule. I have a masters degree. I started my own business. The economy is slow, so I’m doing about HALF the business I was 2 years ago. “grab the reigns” you say. Grab my dick, you sanctimonious piece of shit.
ROTFLMAO Ivan wins the entire Internet forever for this one!!!
Oh look, a troll who is to stupid to realize he’s generalizing in an idiotic manner and needs to shut up because he’s being a sanctimonious piece of anal-hair lice. Yay.
Isn’t it great how people can just assume shit about people without knowing anything about what they are talking about? And by great, I mean fvcking sick.
I’d like to point out something here that often gets overlooked during the health care debate. It’s not only about getting everyone insurance. We need affordable insurance. I’ve mentioned this before, but I get insurance through work and still lose 1/3 of my paycheck to insurance. Too many people either have far too expensive insurance, or really lousy insurance that doesn’t actually pay for anything. That’s one of the reason I like the idea of the public option. I want the option of changing to something else since my employer is too cheap to pay much of anything into our plans. Doesn’t really have much to do with shortright’s point, but the words “affordable health insurance” set me off. LOL
I just spent this afternoon on the phone with Blue Cross – their unofficial motto is ” The name of the Game, is DENY the claim”! “Affordable” is right. I had to ask the lady why we were paying $800 a month but they didn’t want us to use it? Or cover anything?
Yeah. I know. It’s called “profit”. We don’t have a Health Care problem- we have a Health Insurance problem!
What sort of claim was denied? Details please.
That violates HIPAA, darling
It is possible to be usefully informative without getting all the way down to which 6′ of intestines were involved.
Well.. TECHNICALLY it doesn’t because we don’t know who BitterButter really is. So we can’t use the knowledge, nor are we violating REAL privacy.
It was for a PHYSICAL!
Your claim for a physcial.. was denied?!
Why isn’t anyone in congress addressing Tort reform? That is one if not the main reason insurance is so expensive. Today Phiser (sp?) was fined 2.3 billion dollars. I understand that there were some laws broken etc but was is really worth 2.3 billion. I don’t know the details of the violations so I could be way off but it seems like a very high penalty. I also wonder how much of that 2.3 went to lawyers and what, if any, went to victims.
Pfizer, I think. (Since you had the “(?)” there.
)
Pretty much all parts of health care need reform, not just insurance.
Especially the prostate examinations
Not the whole hand doc!
Mooooon riiivvver
Sorry. but that wasn’t a thermometer he took your rectal temp with!
Did he at least take off his Superbowl ring?
Movie reference? Help please?
from where i sit, it isn’t the lawsuits that drive the cost of medical insurance up, but the idea that it’s a for profit business and the companies don’t answer to the clients but to the board of directors and shareholders who are all looking for dividends on their stock….
a single payer plan would be doable for basic care at least if the for-profit portion was removed.
Do you have any idea what the “margin of profit” is for one of the big insurers?
The net profit margin for the health insurance industry (Humana, Aetna, Cigna, etc.) is a whopping 3.7% based on most recent data.
The net profit margin for the banking industry – you know, the one that needed the bailouts? – is 9.0%
Pharmaceuticals (i.e. Pfizer, Merck) – 17.6%
Medical Instruments & Supplies (i.e. Baxter) – 9.5%
Medical Appliances & Equipment (i.e. Steris) – 5.1%
For-Profit Hospitals (i.e. Tenet, RehabCare) – 4.1%
So… tell me again who’s making the profit?
Source: MSN Money Central, by looking up representative companies and looking at the industry Net Profit Margin
Since these percentages are based on most recent data, wouldn’t that take into account a decrease in profitability due to the recession?
If it did, wouldn’t it affect pretty much all of those industries across the board? But for the sake of argument:
“The profit margin on commercial health insurance declined to 3.8% in 2006 on revenue of $172 billion from 4.9% on revenue of $164 billion in 2005. TheStreet.com Ratings’ analysis of health insurers also revealed the profit margin on Medicaid business to be 1.6% in 2006 on revenue of $30 billion, down from 1.8% in 2005 on revenue of $26 billion.”
For the Pharmaceutical Industry, NPM’s in 2007 was around 12.77%
So what is your point exactly? That America spends more on healthcare than any other country, is 37th in the world in efficacy, and it’s not even very profitable? Or even sustainable?
Do you hear that? It’s the sound of our healthcare system sucking. If you listen closely, you can hear the fail.
I could hear it through a stethoscope, but that costs too much.
Nope- all I heard was Obama sucking on communists and terrorists you-know-what !!
You have the brain of a four year old boy, and I’ll bet he was glad to get rid of it.
{{SB}}xx – I get exactly where you’re coming from!
Well spotted paws!
how about looking at profit margin before dividends, bonuses, and especially ceo salaries that can be as much as 250 times higher than the average company employee are paid. furthermore, there are other ways to reduce the net profit of a company, yet still have $$$ in income regardless of the industry
Maybe no one is discussing tort reform because tort reform is worthless when it comes to reducing medical costs, because:
1-Medical malpractice awards account for less than 1% of all medical costs.
2-In every single state that has enacted tort reform, exactly zero of those states have seen their costs go down. In fact, in Texas (the state with the highest percent of uninsured people), they’ve gone up more than the rest of the country since 2003. Also, in 2008, Texas had the third highest insurance rates in the nation.
The only thing tort reform does is make it harder to sue if your doctor lops off your foot for no reason whatsoever.
…which doctors do all the time. Why, just now I’m hopping around on bloody stumps because I went in for a pain in my side and the doctor chopped off my foot to take my mind off it.
I’d be interested to see how that number of uninsured in Texas stacks up when you take out the illegals that are here.
It’s just a flesh wound!
I have extra red vines.
The reason tort reform is necessary is that it causes doctors to perform unreasonable tests to insure that you’re not treating the 1 in a million patient that MIGHT have this condition. Doctors perform unnecessary tests to avoid being sued or avoid losing lawsuits every day. A full 25% of lawsuits are brought against doctors in the U.S. for the sole reason of “I thought I could get money out of it.” The reason health insurance costs have not gone down in those states is that there is still the $1/2 million dollar caps which the doctor could lose (and malpractice doesn’t always cover all of that) if he/she were to miss something. If they would switch to a loser pays court-costs system or (God-forbid) keep med mal lawyers from collecting a percentage of the winnings, this would go away and health costs would decrease. As it stands now, placing caps on damages has done nothing but increase the # of out-of-court settlements.
Taking that step would mean that people who lack significant liquid financial resources couldn’t sue a doctor for malpractice even if he removed the wrong body part, left half the operating room equipment in you, and used Red Vines to stitch you up. The only way most people can afford to prosecute any type of injury claim is on a contingency basis; and in fact working on a contingency basis rather than being paid an hourly rate should decrease, rather than increase, the number of borderline or questionable med mal suits, because the lawyer has to weigh the possibility of a good financial outcome against the genuinely high expenses involved in pursuing a med mal case.
I suspect the biggest part of the really frivolous cases are either a) from the big med-mal firms who have the whole process down to such a streamlined science that they can afford to take a crapshoot or b) lawyers who just really aren’t that good at evaluating their potential cases.
*picks red vine stitches out of arms*
Wait, I can’t sue over this?
Say are those Red Vines? *nomnomnom*
Quit eating all my stitches!!
Yeah, diss, I actually saw an ad on tv the other day for one of those big firms screaming if you’ve taken fvcking Tylenol you could be due money damages. TYLENOL????
Tylenol + alcohol, or + undiagnosed hepatitis can result in serious liver damage. OK, is there such a thing as UNserious liver damage? My brain is not fully operational today…
*headdesk* Yeah….I am embarrassed by soooo many people in my field sometimes. Not sure where they’re going with that other than the liver damage. But it says that ON THE LABEL, so….yeah, I don’t see where they’re going with that. Now, pharmaceutical companies quietly promoting offlabel uses for drugs in markets where they aren’t yet tested (pediatric use of certain drugs that — surprise! — can cause your autistic kid to have permanent tardive dyskenisia….)that’s another story.
I like that anti-depressants can cause suicidal thoughts, personally.
Car insurance is mandatory IF you have a car.
No one is without a need for health care. Even the young and healthy can get hit by a car, or get swine flu.
IF you have a body you mean. Sheesh.
Huh. I didn’t know that the non-corporeal branch of people had already evolved!
And somehow only 85% of people who drive cars have car insurance. Go figure.
Not having car insurance might get you a ticket if you get in a wreck without it, but you’re not penalized with a tax if you don’t have it. Also, you can choose your level of coverage, go with the company you want, choose the type of things covered on your policy, and basically make all the decisions yourself. Comparing auto insurance and health insurance isn’t even remotely close to apples to apples. It’s more like apples to horse crap.
You are not forced to buy car insurance if you don’t drive btw.
No flames from here. I agree you should have a choice whether you get health insurance or not. I wish I could choose whether I had car insurance too, because the rates make it so I can barely afford to have a car. (small econobox, by the way). But I need that car to work and survive. It’s not the idea of affordable health insurance that is the problem, it’s being forced into it and also some of the agendas that come with it.
Now can we please get back to amusing/funny pictures, instead of blatantly propagandist ones?
Now can we please get back to amusing/funny pictures, instead of blatantly propagandist ones?
probably not going to happen for a while. until the healthcare bill is passed or fails we’ll get these sorts of things a few times a week. the number of hits and comments they get on these make the advertisers VERY happy. take a look back to the months before the election. none of the LOLs were particularly funny but all of them started huge fights and got tons of hits…
And the captioner in question is known for unfunny preachy LOLs. As much as I like the idea of universal health care, I think this LOL is a lousy analogy.
“I think this LOL is a lousy analogy.”
I dont know about that. I think this lol might suggest that we could get a spade and neutered provision in the new healthcare bill. Something like that might help reduce some of the troll comments we get on here from both sides.
I don’t think so, actually. They already exist, and they’re not likely to be reproducing, hopefully. Now, I would be in support of having them put down. :LOL:
Also, the only mandatory auto insurance is liability insurance; in other words, the insurance that pays the other driver when you run into him. Collision/comp and uninsured motorist coverage are NOT mandated in any state that I know of. If you’re still paying for your vehicle, the lender will likely insist that you carry them, but that’s very different from legally mandating it.
As it stands, the only way you can really compare mandatory auto insurance to mandatory health insurance would be if they passed a law that you had to carry insurance to cover other people’s illness or injuries CAUSED by you.
“If you care so much about an animal that you would spend $350 on it for one vet visit, why not care for your FELLOW humans?”
1. Because it’s MY animal, not just some random animal with no real connection to me.
2. Because the animal and his friends didn’t harass me for spare change while I was just walking down the street minding my own business.
3. Because it’s obvious and indisputable that my animal can’t possibly pay his own vet bill, and that it’s not his fault. This is self-evident, and I’d be silly to wonder whether it was really true or expect otherwise. In contrast, maybe my fellow man can’t pay for his own medical bills… or maybe he just won’t. Maybe it’s more important for him to buy cigarettes and beer, or subscribe to HBO, or own a set of $3000 rims for his $500 car. I don’t know. I can’t know. It’s impossible to know which people really deserve my help, and which are just worthless freeloaders looking for a handout.
And the ones that deserve your help should get … what?
Clearly they should get nothing. You can’t take the chance of giving to people who don’t deserve it. Thus, the deserving MUST get screwed over too to make sure the unworthy are punished! Sure, some innocent people in bad situation through no fault of their own will be lost along the way, but they’re poor so who cares!! *brain asplodes*
Are there a lot of deserving people who can’t afford to pay either medical bills or for medical insurance? Certainly. Should we all be forced to pay for everyone’s health care through taxes because of it?
There are plenty of people who can’t afford to eat, should we all pay taxes so that the government can buy food for everyone?
There are plenty of people who can’t afford to pay to cool their houses in summer and die from the heat. Some also can’t afford to pay to heat their houses in winter and die from the cold, should we all pay taxes so that the government pays for everyone’s utility bills?
There are those who can’t afford warm clothes. Perhaps the government should make you pay when they start buying clothes for everyone.
There are those who can’t afford childcare for while they work. Meh, the government should tax us so we can pay for that to.
You know, not everyone can walk to work, so we should be taxed so that public transportation is “free”.
And so many people die or are left homeless every year due to floods and earthquakes. Perhaps we should be taxed to pay for the houses of people who don’t live on flood plains or in earthquake zones.
Are you really willing to pay for things like that? Where do you draw the line? And are you willing to allow the government to decide when and where you receive health care, food, electricity. . .?
You know what? I have no heath care. And I don’t want it! I don’t want you to pay for mine. And I don’t want to pay for yours! Why should I be forced to pay for health care for others when I don’t want it for myself?
When the government takes over and pays for a service then they, and only they, will determine if, when and were you receive that service and the quality thereof.
Call me crazy, but I think medical professionals should be choosing if I need treatment, what kind of treatment and so on, not the government.
“Are there a lot of deserving people who can’t afford to pay either medical bills or for medical insurance? Certainly. Should we all be forced to pay for everyone’s health care through taxes because of it?”
Yes.
“There are plenty of people who can’t afford to eat, should we all pay taxes so that the government can buy food for everyone?”
Sounds good so far.
“There are plenty of people who can’t afford to pay to cool their houses in summer and die from the heat. Some also can’t afford to pay to heat their houses in winter and die from the cold, should we all pay taxes so that the government pays for everyone’s utility bills?”
That’s brilliant, dude. Keep going.
“There are those who can’t afford warm clothes. Perhaps the government should make you pay when they start buying clothes for everyone.”
You’re on a roll.
“There are those who can’t afford childcare for while they work. Meh, the government should tax us so we can pay for that to.”
I’m totally in favor of government assistance for childcare.
“You know, not everyone can walk to work, so we should be taxed so that public transportation is “free”.”
Eh. That’s pushing it.
“And so many people die or are left homeless every year due to floods and earthquakes. Perhaps we should be taxed to pay for the houses of people who don’t live on flood plains or in earthquake zones.”
Who DON’T live on flood plains or earthquake zones? Why?
“Are you really willing to pay for things like that? Where do you draw the line? And are you willing to allow the government to decide when and where you receive health care, food, electricity. . .?”
My lord…it sounds like you’re describing…COMMUNISM!!!! OH NOES, NOT THE COMMUNISM!!!! *snicker* You have no idea who you’re talking to, do you?
“You know what? I have no heath care. And I don’t want it! I don’t want you to pay for mine. And I don’t want to pay for yours! Why should I be forced to pay for health care for others when I don’t want it for myself?”
Why don’t you want health care? Don’t you ever get sick? What happens if you are injured or get a disease? Cancer isn’t picky who it takes either.
“Call me crazy,”
No argument here.
“but I think medical professionals should be choosing if I need treatment, what kind of treatment and so on, not the government.”
I agree. Guess what? MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS DON’T GET TO DECIDE THAT NOW. Insurance companies decide what is gonna get paid for, and then doctors have to either work around that, or say fvck it and bankrupt their patients. The whole goddamn system is fvcked completely. If we could do it without government involvement, that would be ideal, but it’s not gonna happen. It’s not.
And just because you don’t have health care (or heath care apparently, which you need when you have to take care of the Joker) and don’t want it doesn’t mean everyone is like you.
I need some more mortar for this wall of text. My apologies, all.
No apologies necessary Rando, well worth the time to read it. And yes, clearly nooneinteresting is crazy. Choosing not to have health care (or heath care in case his candy bar gets sick) is simply crazy.
You just argued with someone who based their points off of Hyperbole Rando…
I know. It was fun. I enjoyed it.
First of all, I was not talking about communism. I was talking about socialism. Two totally different things. I don’t live in a socialist country and I don’t want to live in a socialist country. Is it so wrong that I want to keep the money I make and not be forced to pay for what others need or want?
Is the health care system working as it is right now? No, I’ll admit that. Insurance companies have completely screwed it up. But if you think letting the United States government get involved is going to fix it, then you’re either completely insane or an elected official (which, now that I think about it, wouldn’t really rule out the “completely insane” thing).
Was my previous post hyperbole? No. At least, not entirely. Some people can’t afford health care. That doesn’t mean the government should pay for everyone’s health care. If that decision is made it’s only logical conclusion is that the government pay for anything that may or may not keep someone healthy and alive– for everyone. Do you have any idea how much that would cost? How do you think the government would pay for it? Taxes. Perhaps you have no problem paying 50-70% of your income in taxes, but I’d like to keep what I earn. I must be greedy as hell to want that.
Oh, and I’m glad you found my one typo. I’m also glad you found it so amusing.
“Is the…thing).” – Maybe the US Government can’t fix it, but what proposals do you have, bearing in mind that in a capitalist parliamentary democracy it’s pretty much impossible to stop a non-governmentally owned company acting to increase its profitability? Instead of crying “I don’t like this idea” advance some of your own so we can see if they’re better or not!
“Was my…want that.” – Other than Sweden I can’t come up with a country where people pay 50 to 70% direct taxation. Meanwhile, they spend about 8% of GDP on one of the 10 best health care systems in the World, rather than 16% on the 37th best.
“. . .but what proposals do you have. . .” And why exactly should I have to put forth a proposal (better than the concept of socialized medicine or not) to fix a system that I have freely chosen not to use? I merely don’t want to be forced to contribute to an alternate system that will likely be no better (or perhaps will be much worse) and that I still won’t use.
“. . .in a capitalist parliamentary democracy it’s pretty much impossible to stop a non-governmentally owned company acting to increase its profitability. . .” That sounds strangely like taking the responsibility for paying for health care away from private companies that have grown large and corrupt and giving it to a government that is already large and corrupt. This is better how?
(Oh, and the United States is not a parliamentary democracy, by the way, it’s a constitutional republic.)
This is a capitalist society. One makes themselves heard with their pocketbooks. If you don’t like the current health care insurance system, don’t avail yourself of it . If enough people walked away from insurance companies, they would either be forced to change their policies to attract more customers or go under allowing for the creation of other companies to take their place. That’s the way capitalism works. Yet all you ever hear about is people clamoring for participation an insurance system that continually over charges and under provides. They ignore their customer’s complaints because, until those customers walk away, they’re still getting paid; where’s the impetus for change?
And now those same people seem to be clamoring for a governmental system that they won’t be able to walk away from no matter how bad it gets. This, to me, is not an improvement.
Proposals – Ok, habeus corpus. Show me where you are forced to contribute to a governmental HCI system.
Democracy – Again show me the body. In short, prove that the US government is corrupt.
Incidentally, the US government is organised as a federal parlimentary democracy. Being a republic does not stop you being a parlimentary democracy, any more than being a constitutional monarchy does.
What I’m hearing is rich US conservatives saying “we like a system we can afford just fine and scr*w you if you can’t”, and liberals saying “show some social responsibility”. Or would you like to walk away from state schools because you don’t have children? By your arguments I should be calling for an end to state schooling as I don’t get a direct benefit from it. Similarly with social works and standing armies.
“Proposals – Ok, habeus corpus. Show me where you are forced to contribute to a governmental HCI system.”
If the government institutes universal health care, how do you think they’ll pay for that? Taxes. You think I’m somehow exempt from taxes? Last I checked, I was not a non-profit organization.
“Democracy – Again show me the body. In short, prove that the US government is corrupt.”
You even need to ask? If you think the US government is completely fair and altruistic, then nothing I say is going to convince you.
“Incidentally, the US government is organised as a federal parlimentary [sic] democracy.”
From thefreedictionary.com
“parliamentary democracy–Noun 1. parliamentary democracy – a democracy having a parliament”
A parliamentary democracy is a system where the members of the executive branch are drawn from and are accountable to the parliament. The president is elected by the populace and accountable only to them.
“What I’m hearing is rich US conservatives saying “we like a system we can afford just fine and scr*w you if you can’t”, and liberals saying “show some social responsibility”. Or would you like to walk away from state schools because you don’t have children? By your arguments I should be calling for an end to state schooling as I don’t get a direct benefit from it. . .”
If by “rich US conservatives” you mean me, I’ll trade incomes with you any time you’d like.
I find it interesting to see you bring up public schooling. Because that government run program is clearly an unmitigated success. (We call that sarcasm by the way.) Whether or not–or how–we should be paying for public schools is a debate for another time.
“Other than Sweden I can’t come up with a country where people pay 50 to 70% direct taxation.”
There are a few countries with high taxes – “they” say Denmark might havepassed us as the world’s highest “total tax burden per person”-nation. But everything seems to depend a bit on how you calculate stuff.
Wikipedia (yes, yes, not the best source in the world, but a place to start, at least) has tables on tax rates around the world.
“First of all, I was not talking about communism. I was talking about socialism. Two totally different things. I don’t live in a socialist country and I don’t want to live in a socialist country. Is it so wrong that I want to keep the money I make and not be forced to pay for what others need or want?”
Tough question. Sure, you worked for your money. You’ve earned it. But is it really okay to just turn your back on those who don’t have what they need? That doesn’t sound like the greatest country on earth to me. Sounds pretty selfish.
“How do you think the government would pay for it? Taxes. Perhaps you have no problem paying 50-70% of your income in taxes, but I’d like to keep what I earn. I must be greedy as hell to want that.”
No argument here. So what do we do about the people who can’t afford health care? Just tell ‘em to work harder? Great solution there. Very compassionate.
“Tough question. Sure, you worked for your money. You’ve earned it. But is it really okay to just turn your back on those who don’t have what they need? That doesn’t sound like the greatest country on earth to me. Sounds pretty selfish.”
So what if it is selfish? Should I not have the right to spend my money the way I want to? It is my money after all. Not yours. Besides, how do you know that I am being selfish with my money? Perhaps I have a charitable cause close to my heart and I like to spend every spare dime I have supporting it. Perhaps I’m on a fixed income and am just barely making ends meet and could not possibly afford any increase in taxes. Perhaps I’m saving every dollar I have to start a business that will solve the health care problem and make it fair and economical for everyone. Or perhaps I just don’t want the federal government digging it’s greed little hands any deeper into my pockets than I already am. You have no idea how I live my life or what’s important to me or why, so what gives you the right to tell me how I spend my money?
“No argument here. So what do we do about the people who can’t afford health care? Just tell ‘em to work harder? Great solution there. Very compassionate.”
So, because I don’t want to swap one bad system that I choose to not pay my hard earned money into, with another system that will likely be the same, if not worse, that I will have no choice but to pay into, I have no compassion? That’s a bit of a leap there.
I’m not saying that I have the solution to this problem tucked away somewhere, because I don’t. But expecting the government to hand out anything that you can’t afford to pay for on your own just because you think you need or deserve it is a slippery slope. Universal health care would be nice. Affordable health care would be nice. But for that to happen the flaws in the system must be addressed. And handing that system over to the government will only serve to create more flaws rather than fix those that already exist.
I’m not saying that the system works as it is, nor that I have a way to solve it. But giving it over to the government is certainly not going to make it better. It’s only going to compound the problem by adding to it.
“I’m not saying that the system works as it is, nor that I have a way to solve it. But giving it over to the government is certainly not going to make it better. It’s only going to compound the problem by adding to it.”
The question has been nagging me for a while now, but this post made it finally take form enough to come out clear and concise.
What the hell is wrong with the US government if they can’t handle a universal health care, and why the hell don’t the American people do something about that?
Danbala raises a good point. Many countries that America arrogantly thinks we are better than can handle the universal health care, but the greatest country in the world can’t do it? Doesn’t sound like we’re really that great after all. :-\
Look. We need universal health care. It’s a basic human right. We’re the laughing stock of the civilized world since we don’t have it. And all I keep hearing from the conservatives is “I don’t want to have to pay for any of it.” If everyone doesn’t pay for it, then who will? Someone. Has. To. Pay. For. It.
Universal health care is not a basic right as listed by the Constitution. As I said before, Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness is in there, and sometimes to get those you need medical care. But nowhere in there does it even imply that it’s the government’s job to make sure that your heathcare is paid for BY the government.
Thank you, Froofrou, I couldn’t have said it better myself.
And since when is the constitution the end all be all of all of human rights? Just because it’s not in the stupid constitution doesn’t mean it’s not a basic human right. I may be burned at the stake for this, but: the constitution isn’t perfect.
-Hears the phrase “burn at stake”-
-Pulls out big nose, black robe, wart, and broomstick-
LET’S GET A MOVE ON FOLKS! IGGLER’S GONNA BURN HIM ONE HECK OF A WIIIIIITCH!
Wait, what?
Eric?
Okay, fine.
You’re right, the Constitution isn’t perfect. But it’s what we have to run the country, and whatever perfections are lacking have been remedied in the past by Constitutional ammendments.
The thing that irritates me about people who slam the Constitution for not being perfect (this isn’t directed at you, Rando, it’s a rant in general) is that they focus on the “negative liberties” in it. The Constitution is almost completely about things the government CAN’T do TO you, not about what it CAN do FOR you. The Founders knew that the government can be toxic if allowed to run rampant, and that’s why there is nothing specific in there about what the government is supposed to do for you. It simply limits the power of government over you so that we don’t fall back into a monarch-like society where the president is king.
No one will dispute the need for healthcare for everyone. What is being disputed here is how to get it to the people. I dont’ see an already bloated, redundant, and corrupt government that functions more as a boy’s club for those who are only out for reelection as being the best choice to provide that healthcare.
I’m not so sure about that, froo. I’ve seen many times on here people suggesting that health care for everyone is not important or is not their problem. How are we supposed to fix the problem when so many people don’t give a crap?
We can just roll those unfeeling, uncaring people off a cliff and thereby take some of the bloat out of the system. Or make them all move to Utah.
I honestly don’t know, Rando. I wish I did. You can’t force people to care, but perhaps we can use that attitude to help. Give some type of tax incentive (as opposed to a fine in the form of a tax hike or penalty) for contributing to others, or sweeten the deal with perks. That’s one way Texas has managed to keep its unemployment rate low and businesses here (instead of moving out of state), and it’s not a bad thing…….Perhaps we can translate that into healthcare on a more personal level for people. Allow them a tax break for paying a little more into a system that WILL cover those who can’t afford it, or give a rebate for some type of gifting that will help.
You can’t just punish and punish and punish and expect people to want to help of their own free will. I’m sure you don’t beat your children until they clean up their room…….maybe after they DON’T do it, but certainly not before
My daddy did that once with the metal end of a belt…
Doesn’t work.
Ooo, yeah….. awwwkward!
The ones that deserve our help and the ones that don’t get a portion of the 40% of my salary I dont ever see.
You’re generalizing a whole bunch of us, pal. I am self employed. I pay my taxes. I CAN’T AFFORD HEALTH INSURANCE! I don’t smoke or drink beer (hate the stuff), I don’t have HBO. I don’t have $3,000 rims (though my car is worth more than $500) on my Rav4. But you’ve lumped me in with “worthless freeloaders looking for a handout.”
Maybe you should pray about it?
Wait… if you’re me… then who am I?! D:
You’re you but I’m not me or you you see?
I’M BRIAN FELLOWS!
That goat’s lookin’ at me again. It’s got devil eyes!
Quit lookin’ at me bald cat!!
I am the eggman.
Ku ku ka choo!
You spelled it wrong. Zombie Lennon is gonna get you.
zombie lennon = instant carma!
( Yes, Im well aware i spelled karma wrong, its the joke .))
Uh-oh, Zombie Lennon’s gonna get you! Gonna knock you right in the head. Better get yourself together. Pretty soon you’re gonna be dead!
But… we all shine on!
I don’t John has shined on in a loooooong time.
Sorry, I don’t talk to myself. Which is great, because it means my sanity is (mostly) intact, and I don’t need a psychiatrist that I can’t afford, because I CAN’T AFFORD HEALTH INSURANCE!
/rant
And that is my problem because…..
Who the fu(k was talking to you, anyway?
” I don’t need a psychiatrist” yeah right! Rethink that one , won’t cha!
Really? You really think you know me well enough to ascertain whether I am insane or not? From a few posts on a website?
It’s ok Ivan… no one likes Bitter Butter anyways…
I prefer my butter to be smooth and creamy. Mmmm…butter… *drools*
I prefer shea butter……dunno why…..
I’ve always wondered, who’s this shea and what did he/she have to do with butter?
You’ve never heard of Shea Guevara??!!! South American revolutionary and hand lotion mogul?!
Well George Harrison got to pay when a mentally ill fellow was refused care in the UK. The dude broke into his mansion and stabbed him.
Other possibility–untreated tuberculosis, due to not being able to afford a doctor’s visit. That is one ‘wicked’ contagious disease… What would be the cost of having to put an entire city on multiple meds, plus the police & military personnel to quarantine same city?
My mistake. I should have said that more carefully.I know health insurance is expensive, and not everybody who has a hard time affording it deserves to be lumped in with the worthless freeloaders, and I shouldn’t have suggested that they are. This is a real problem. (Although I’d argue that I don’t have a moral obligation to pick up the check for the solution, but that’s for another conversation.)
But I was responding specifically to the story about “a hungry vagrant standing outside in the cold”. The implication seemed to be: “everybody ought to be willing to pay for all of that guy’s medical bills, no questions asked. If you are willing to CHOOSE to spend $350 of YOUR money on a vet visit for YOUR animal, then you shouldn’t mind being ordered by the government to give a stranger whatever he says he needs. If you object to this, it’s because you’re unkind. Instead, you should care so much about anyone in need that you’re willing to do whatever it takes to help him, regardless of whether he’s even trying to do anything to help himself or not. As your fellow man, he’s entitled to it.” This is the idea I’m having trouble with.
and we can have you cam, to tell us who deserves to live and who deserves to die….
-LA GASP- YOUR A ONE MAN DEATH PANNEL!!
There is such a thing as pet insurance. You have to pay for it, just as we would have to pay for a public option or single payer. It’s not “free”.
And you know what? Pet insurance scares the crap out of me. The reason that vet care is relatively cheap (in terms of what they can do for your pet) is because they price it so that the consumer can afford it. If it ever gets to the point that pet insurance is mainstream and everyone is using it, a simple rabies shot will go from being $35 to being $3500. All because the “insurance will pay for it.”
Hey, I love my dog. But if he gets cancer I’m not paying for chemo. What I will pay for is that little shot that makes him take the big sleep. I will be very sad and cry about it for a long time but he’s a dog and not a person. That mentality might also have something to do with low veterinary costs. If my mom has cancer I can’t say to the doctor, “well, she’s lived a good life, I think it’s time we had her put down.”
I suppose you could just put her on an ice floe and let her drift gently out to sea like the civilized people do. Geez, Jane, are you trying to cost me more money??
Oh my dear Jane, haven’t you heard Comrade Rando and I have that “option” covered!
*nods sagely*
Da.
“The reason that vet care is relatively cheap (in terms of what they can do for your pet) is because they price it so that the consumer can afford it.”
Go Froo!!!
This above all else is why the actual cost of healthcare should not be further obscured from the healthcare consumer through a single-payer system.
For a similar example, consider (most) cosmetic surgery. It’s as medically complex as any other specialty, plus it carries the added complexity of aesthetics. It’s not covered by insurance (except in rare cases of reconstruction). At the same time as insured medical care prices have exploded, this rarely-insured form of medical care has become better, safer, less expensive and more widely available.
I have no argument about medical costs being too high, and sure, I’d like to pay less for insurance.
However, claiming that affordable health insurance is not available, without providing one’s demographics, rate quotes they’ve received, and one’s definition of affordable to back up the claim, is just another talking point.
Yes, there are some genuinely needy people out there that we should help on a limited and controlled basis. Let them use their food stamp card to get necessary care inside the existing system.
Don’t remake the entire system such that those who can, but would rather not pay for their own health insurance can opt into what is intended as a safety net for the truly needy.
Will the lolcats people go away please? We have a hard enough time getting political funny without sifting through all the cat bull$hit. And this one even tries to preach to me! You don’t see me coming over there and trying to teach you grammar and spelling.
*rant over, sorry about that regulars*
Thank you! It’s been two in less than two days! They need to stop now.
My God, I think you’ve hit upon something. Why don’t we, as a community that thrives on proper grammar and spelling, invade ICHC and start trashing everyone that posts in LOLSpeak? I mean, what a statement that would make!
We might be considered trolls, but man, woudn’t it be fun? Who’s with me on this?
whaz wrong with being a troll?
Nothing, as long as you’re bitter.
eds… i love you. you know this.
but i laughed at your final line. “woudn’t”? in a post about proper spelling and grammar?
and, if i bothered to capitalize, i’d go with you… but since i’m too lazy i don’t think my bashing on spelling and grammar would go over too well.
Uh, damn.. it was my keyboard.. honestly, it has a mnid of it’s own!
mnid?
It was supposed to be mind, but the keyboard is losing the plot!
i foresee a keyboard out the window fairly soon, no?
you mnid want to have that looked at….
Tell me about ti.. I think it’s possessed..
Oh, and picky, picky, pciky…
-
Oh, and I have to ask, you still like it on the lawn? just sayin’
*must avoid misspelling of picky in first line*
i love the lawn! my beach umbrella and lounge chair are so comfortable there…
Oh now he’s doing it for attention. Don’t encourage him.
Yeah, and? :p
Woo-hoo! Stealth healthcare item makes it to the front page!
Nobody said it would be free, jersey, only that it’s obligatory.
it’s not free nor is it obligatory, you don’t have to take the public plan being offered if you don’t want to.
you like plan, stick with it. let the people who could use the public plan buy into it.
But employers are obligated to offer it. Or else be taxed heavily on payroll. Which will result in pay cuts. Which will inevitably hurt the people who this law is supposed to protect. Fail.
they’re only obligated to offer it, from my understanding, if they choose not to purchase an existing health care plan from a private insurer, i.e. something they should have been doing already but now affordable for smaller businesses. win.
The larger companies will see a cost savings in dumping their current plan for the government option is what I am afraid of. If that happens then no we won’t be able to keep our current insurance. On top of that, there is a grandfather provision in the current house version that does not allow a person to seek private insurance coverage one year after the healthcare plan is approved. So if you lose or change jobs a year after the bill is passed you will have to go on the government option plan.
I’ve actually heard something similar to that, both points actually. The dumping the current plan in favor of the gov’t option is a valid concern and I’m not sure how they plan on addressing that. The other part, I haven’t heard as much about but enough to get me curious to do more research into it (I’ve just gotten side tracked before I’ve actually had a chance to look into it, so I’ll have to make a note to myself and check on that tomorrow). If you got any good links on it, please share.
I’ve a friend with a company. Health insurance currently costs his company approximately $10,000 a year PER PERSON. That does NOT include the co-pay from the employee. The costs have become insane, it is simply that those of us who work for larger companies do not see the bulk of the insanity!
Is that because insurance is expensive or because healthcare is expensive? Do the research.
Insurance companies make on average 3% profit (if they are profitable at all) off of those huge premiums. Why? Because HEALTHCARE IS EXPENSIVE.
Let’s work to bring down the cost of actual care, not the insurance that covers it.
Let’s work to reduce the thousands of malpractice lawsuits that are driving up healthcare costs.
Let’s work to the make the healthcare industry more efficient by investing in technologies.
But for gods sake, please stop pointing the finger (or at least all the fingers) at the insurance industry. If we took away ALL profits from the industry, it would probably reduce your healthcare costs by one or two cents on the dollar.
I have no problem with bringing down the cost of healthcare on the healthcare side. I’ve read of one guy who streamlined hospital practice (without cutting staff or treatment), and the result was significant cost reduction, PLUS decrease of medical mistakes! Can we get him in on the equation?
The system is a mess, and more than one thing requires repair.
Sorry but our hospital “streamlined” our system with ” electronic medical records” and the result was a friggin’ disaster. Now we have colossal screwups in meds and no one can find charts or if they do, they can’t access them. We were told that the only thing EMR streamlines is the government and insurance companies ability to audit everything much more easily. You want streamlining- get the government the h*ll out of health care!
So you’re suggesting letting the health care industry set their own prices and regulate themselves? How exactly is this a good idea?
Where did I say that?
“get the government the hell out of health care” (I uncensored it for you)
If the government is the hell out of health care, who is gonna keep them in line? They sure as hell can’t seem to regulate themselves.
I don’t work in health care systems, but I am a computer systems engineer, and know people in US PHP. If your hospital got a clusterfvck like that from EMR, the fault is with the people who bought the wrong system, not the idea of EMR.
The hospital that I was writing about is in Cincinnati and did not just go to electronic records. They concentrated mostly on patient movement, scheduling and tracking. And decreased medical mistakes in the process.
{http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/ideas/articles/2009/08/30/a_simple_change_could_dramatically_improve_hospitals_ndash_and_american_health_care/}
Probably bought it from the CEO’s brother-in-law or something- it really is a horrible system but they refuse to get rid of it.
That’s the sort of cynicism I can totally agree with!!
“Let’s work to reduce the thousands of malpractice lawsuits that are driving up healthcare costs.”
that alone would drive down prices, i read an article somewhere (long time back, sorry, no link) but it was concerning the cost of malpractice insurance and how due to that cost alone it was prohibiting many doctors from entering any general care field and driving up the cost of procedures that otherwise wouldn’t be so bad..
anyway, just felt like adding, the other points you made were good as well. (see, i’m not all negative! (: )
We are totally friends now.
Actually, Texas has limited the $ amounts of malpractice lawsuit payouts. That’s decreased the cost of malpractice insurance in the state, which has increased the number of doctors practicing there. However, the “savings” in what doctors pay in malpractice insurance and the greater number of doctors practicing have had ZERO impact on the cost of health care to consumers. The prices are no lower than in any other state.
Then I guess Texas decided to buck the system of supply and demand. More doctors should always equal cheaper care. I guess Texas doctors would rather keep the same prices and have less patients than cut the cost of care. I guess they never took macroeconomics in college.
“More doctors should always equal cheaper care.”
Where have you seen this happen? And the prices that doctors charge are not completely based on their costs. When doctors stop being paid for each procedure and test that they perform the likelyhood of healthcare costs going down is much greater.
Please. Everyone knows that “more doctors” = “longer wait for tee times”.
Heehee!
And even longer waits for your appointment cause they’re all out on the golf course.
Spoken like a lawyer. Yes, we did pass Tort reform here- and it drastically dropped malpractice premiums. But Medicare also passed drastic cuts in reimbursements to the doctors, often below their costs of seeing patients, so they had to raise rates to compensate just to survive. I wish the Government would limit what Lawyers could charge like they do doctors!!!!!!!!!
1) Where did you get this “Spoken like a lawyer”?
2) Nesting fail.
“More doctors should always equal cheaper care.”
I think parks above is referring to the economic principle of supply and demand, if you have more of something (a service in this case) then the supply/demand ratio will be less severe meaning that the competition between them will natuarly lower the price of the service offered whereas if only say, 3 doctors were available in all of texas you would see the prices sky rocket because the supply/demand ratio would be totally out of wack (technical term) – the doc’s would be in such great demand that the serviced being offered would be being out bid by people competing not to offer the service but to purchase it.
make sense?
*snickers*
We certainly have no shortage of doctors in the greater Boston area, but the costs are ‘entertaining’.
it’s the same up here, even got a phone book dedicated to just doctors and it’s bigger than the other white pages but the prices are absurd.
supply/demand, it seems, doesn’t appy to medical costs (but it should!!)
If supply/demand worked for the medical field, we wouldn’t be in this mess. But another word applies here…it has slipped my mind…where everyone in an industry conspire to keep prices too high instead of letting competition set the curve (you know, like they do with gas prices too).
i know exactly what you mean, but the word isn’t coming to mind either. good example though
Would oligopoly apply here?
Don’t know if this will nest right, but here goes.
The word you may be looking for is collusion.
Costs aside, the pricing problem starts with Medicare.
Let’s say procedure Y has a cost plus reasonable profit price of $100.00, including collection costs. If the doctor doesn’t get $100.00 for procedure Y, sooner or later he goes broke. In order to get $100.00 for procedure Y, the doc has to charge Medicare $250.00. So he bills Medicare $250.00, and gets $100.00.
The catch is, if he charges Medicare $250.00, he can’t charge other payers less, or he’d be arrested for fraud. So he must charge the insurance company $250.00 for procedure Y. Because the insurance company has a contractual obligation to its policy holders to hold down costs, the insurer determines that $100.00 (maybe +/- a few bucks) is the “reasonable and customary” charge for procedure Y in the doc’s location. So again, the doc bills $250.00, and gets his $100.00, with less collection cost than Medicare.
The problem comes when the non-insured person goes to the doc to get procedure Y, the Medicare rules the doc is subject to require the doc to charge Mr. Non Insured $250.00, not the $100.00 that he eventually got from Medicare or the insurance company.
The real perversion of the system comes when billing costs are compared. The collection cost for the non-insured guy paying at the time of service is negligible, but the collection cost from Medicare, the ones who jacked the $100.00 price to $250.00 in the first place, is the highest.
Yes, there is a problem, but government is not the solution. Case in point from today’s headlines: In one of the most profitable businesses in history, gambling, NY’s OTB horse-betting operation filed for bankruptcy today.
Collusion, yeah I think that’s the word.
I’m just amazed the comment nested where it was supposed to.
I need to write better here. I know what parks meant. I guess I didn’t make clear what I meant, which is that health care costs seem to be immune to the principles of supply and demand, regardless of how parksj1 thinks they are.
Hel, I might have just misunderstood what you meant. Sorry if i did.
Not at all. I don’t think you misunderstood. I didn’t make my point clearly enough.
If more doctors equals lower prices, why isn’t that working with Lawyers too? Our phone book is covered in lawyer ads and they outnumber the doctors here 4:1 but their fees are outrageous still.
That would be true if the doctors in Texas were all GPs. We have a LOT of specialized medicine in Texas, including some of the best heart doctors in the world (speaking from personal experience here). And there are a bunch of research hospitals here.
Whenever someone speaks of medical schools I have to bring up UAB. I like it. Not trying to put down Texas mind you, just saying.
MD Anderson?
I have never accused you of being a negative avatar
P Even though we disagree alot I enjoy your input very much and can tell that you would be a fun person to be around.
thanks, Semper, it’s nice to hear
i have enjoyed our discussions thus far very much as well, nice to have people you can disagree with yet still get along with. Plus, i’ve seen your posts with other people and you’ve always managed to say your peace and keep it civil. Gotta respect that.
All this being civil stuff is making me sick. Fvcking insult each other!!!
everyone here can bite me
i did good?
You did just fine. No wait, I mean, uh, YOU SUCK!! There, all better now.
I’ve seen other articles which suggest that the number (if not the payment) of malpractice suits is proportional to the number of people in the system; you know, since the population rises and the number medics rises, then even though the number of mistakes a given medic makes in their career remains constant, the number of malpractice suits rises!
You Fail to notice that Obamacare is going to cost billions. And there may or may not be a public option. And we will all be forced to accept it one way or another. Welcome to Socialism.
You have no clue what socialism is. Don’t accept everything that Limbaugh tells you as gospel.
Oddly enough I don’t know a SINGLE person in real life who listens to him.
*quietly raises hand then puts it back down so the Lefties don’t beat her to death*
We won’t beat you to death. We will, however, glare at you for hours on end.
*squintglares* MMMMMyosss.. What IS going on here, Rando Old Bean?
Hush. Keep glaring. *glares harder*
*squintglares*
-Yawns and itches stomach-
What, you want me to be pissed at her? She doesn’t do it to me for watching Stewart and Colbert ’cause I think they’re funny, plus Froo is reasonable enough compared to most everybody else around here.
froo knows I have mad love for her. If she doesn’t, froo, I have mad love for you.
Not to be confused with mad cow.
And as the cost of healthcare goes up, employers who pay for it have to pay more. Which will result in pay cuts. Or a decrease in other benefits. Or layoffs altogether. Which will inevitably hurt the people who “thought their health insurance was fine”.
However, if you don’t have what the government deems “adequate” coverage AND don’t sign up for the public plan, they will be penalizing you with a tax at the end of the year. It’s in Subtitle A, Section 401.
Stealth healthcare item makes it to the front page!
if this is what you consider stealth, i’d hate to see “fcuking obvious”. the caption is about as blatant as can be.
EWAdams so far has not been known for subtlety. Despite having similar views on politics, EW’s “LOLs” make my eyes hurt from all the rolling.
this is rando? –>
ow that makes my eyes hurt
Yeah, preeeeeetty much.
Is it just me, or does this rather imply that people should be allowed to own people?
We tried that for a period of time, didn’t work out so well.
What about all the cats/dogs that aren’t owned by people? Like the pregnant cat in my yard – it is not mine, I don’t feed it (the neighbors do) – but I’m the one who has to take it to the shelter where it will more than likely be killed. Sorry – I’m not in a good mood today.
Or just kill it yourself. It’s a cat.
throw tuna in the neighbors yard who you dislike, then they have now forcefully adopted the neighborhood cat.. mwa hahahaha
Or just kill Parksj1. It’s just a human.
Heh. Don’t make assumptions.
he’s a dog! (she?) i knew it, conspirator against the kitteh!!
I’m a he.
And have you ever wondered if a dog really knows that he’s a dog? I mean, when he’s laying on the couch with you, is it possible that he thinks you and he are the same thing?
Possibly. Dogs aren’t as smart as cats, so a particularly unintelligent dog might develop identity issues.
But cats are infinitely more evil.
Cats are one of 3(maybe 4) animals in nature that are self aware of what they are. Dogs, often develop identity issues depending upon who or what they are raised by. There are very few animals that are aware of what they are, or that they are in fact, mortal. The survival instinct is usually just that, instinct.
BOOOOOO!!!!
Why?
Office call: $98
IV catheter: $75
IV sedation: $42
IV euthanasia solution: $80
Private cremation: $150
Total: $445
For a cat.
Alternate plan.
.22 shell: $.17
Shoebox: Free from Payless
Shovel: borrowed from neighbor if you don’t have one
Total: Seventeen cents and getting over your squeamishness.
So again I ask: why BOOOOOO!!!!! when you can do-it-yourself and donate the rest to an Animal Shelter or a Children’s Hospital, say St. Jude’s?
You’re ridiculous. I can’t believe you actually spent the time to type this.
Why is that ridiculous? It’s totally true; that’s the cost at our local veterinary hospital.
When you grow up rural, that’s how you deal with your animals. I’ve taken my own aged dogs on their final walk. It’s easier on the animal and the wallet.
So tell me: why is your way better?
This conversation had nothing to do with older animals! Try following a conversation without being a smug jackass. And I’d much rather see an animal go to a no-kill shelter.
Do you really believe feral cats aren’t disposed of at a no-kill shelter? Seriously?
And this enterprise should be funded by who? You? I can’t afford subsidizing your health care AND the long-term keeping of someone else’s abandoned pets.
Quit being so rude. It’s beneath you.
Morticia, you come on these boards, make an incredible ass out of yourself by being pompous and running around in circular arguments, and then accuse anyone who shuts you down as being rude. It’s old, it’s tired, and it’s not fun.
Until you can at least entertain us, you’re just another troll-ish monkey.
Is that cat a citizen?!
(squints accusingly)
Nah – just a sock.
Obama? Bush? Forget them, fear the evil cats. If they ever get opposable thumbs, we’re all screwed.
*yawns*
All this lack of funny is making me sleepy.
Indeed. Why has this become PreachyKitchen all of a sudden?
it’s not just PreachyKitchen… based on the kitten content of the last few LOLs it’s PreachyKitten. which is even worse.
EXCUSE ME… ADMINS! CAN WE PLEASE STICK TO POLITICS AND FUNNY STUFF??
*headdesk*
Agreed. Why TF are we getting all of these cat non-LOLs on here??!! I do not come here to see cats; it’s why ICHC exists.
The really sad thing?
I’ve been laughing at the captions over there more often for the past few weeks than I have been here. I don’t read the comments there.
Yeah. Pretty much.
I don’t mind the kitten pictures as much as the idiotic bastardized English captions and comments.
“Escuze me, plz to keep teh lolspeek on that other board, where wee dont hav 2 c it? Kthxbai.”
Sorry, everybody. I’m gonna go take a shower now, and wash that off me.
iz ok, lemme kno ef yous needa back scrubba
if i had to choose between kittens and vladimir putin… i’d choose putin. i hang out at PK for a reason. and it’s not just that the LOLspeak makes my brain hurt in new and unusual ways.
Putin would PWNE basement cat
of course!
Putin probably DOES own Basement Cat (always capitalize, people, give the cat his due respect).
That’s okay Socks – we can put you down too.
Yeah, I don’t think people in favor of health reform (as it’s being proposed) really want to draw comparisons between animal care and human care.
*cough* Euthanasia *cough*
Not saying I buy the death-panel stuff. Just saying it’s probably not a place they want to go.
Yeah, this is a lousy analogy. *headdesk*
Lol..read below
Brilliant. Right on the money.
Because people aren’t pets, wholly dependent upon their masters for their very existence. The most secure environment in the world, for humans, is a jail cell or in slavery. The most secure environment for an animal, is similarly, possession by a human.
Any questions? How many of you want to be a slave?
*jumps up and down*
ooooh me! ME! pick meeeeeeee!
hold on.
wait… are we talking about slave in a sexual way or a “go pick cotton” sort of way?
If you have sex with sisyphus, do you get taken to the brink only to roll back down to square one, over and over and . . .
i had an ex boyfriend like that…
It rang kind of a vague sort of bell for me, too …
i think most of us have had an ex like that.
Puts the ex in ex, don’t you think?
Geez, with exes like that, I think I’ll take batteries instead!
+1 internet to VG.
You can have both. It’s more fun that way.
most definitely. which is also why the current isn’t an ex.
Yay!!
he’s pretty damned cute too. and smart. and funny. and has a super sexy motorcycle. and rebuilt a delorean (how badass is that?).
*blushes*
*grins*
does it go back in time?
no, it will go 88mph but has no flux capacitor. i asked.
does he want to buy one? i have seen them for sale on the interwebz
if you could prove that they work and would allow us to go back to the future… i’d totally buy it for him as a “look at this totally awesome thing that you absolutely need” gift.
plutonium sold seperately
-http://www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/plush/9fc6/-
its FLUXING!
BT – i find it a bit ominous that under the price it says “Buy this and earn 2,700 Geek Points!”. as if only geeks would buy a model flux capacitor. pshaw.
(if it weren’t so freaking expensive i’d totally get it for him for shits and giggles. but $250 before s/h for some tubing that lights up is a bit much.)
this might be more your style
Wwww.instructables.com/id/Flux-CapacitorW
it’s a bit more my style… but it still doesn’t work. so i’m not THAT nerdy.
Don’t worry BT, in 2015, plutonium will be sold in convenience stores. Doc Brown said so.
wait as charro’s slave troll does that mean she has to give me health care now?
i think that’s what sisyphus is sayin!
Uh… WHAT’S THAT OVER THERE?!?!?! *turns and runs*
-chases after charro- come back here and provide me insurance!
Oh noes!!!! I’VE BEEN TACKLED!!!
-gropes hugs and licks- hi
Need the Whip and chains?
does this mean I’m covered too?
BT Industries is a small company that can’t afford health care coverage for its employees. Sorry, bro. But there will be a public option available for you soon…
*laughs maniacally*
As bitter’s patroness, I will add you as a dependent to the policy. However, it costs $499/month and you have a $5000 deductible and the insurance only picks up 40% of your care after that.
Yeah, the problem with the healthcare debate comes down to this:
Do you think people are adequately equipped to provide for/look after themselves or do they need the government to provide for/look after them?
Your answer to that largely determines what side of the debate you will fall on.
“Do you think people are adequately equipped to provide for/look after themselves or do they need the government to provide for/look after them?”
No, it doesn’t. Are you saying that the the citizens of most European countries, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and many, many more are perceived by their governments and by their fellow citizens as not being able to provide for themselves?? People who can and do look after/provide for themselves can still be priced out of health insurance and health care.
You cannot be priced out of healthcare in the US. Only health insurance. Walk into the ER without anything in your pockets and see if they will treat you. They will.
But speaking of health insurance, there are 40 mil people in the US without it.
10 million of them make over $250k a year.
10 million of them have access to insurance through work and decline it.
10 million of them have access to insurance through Medicaid and other government programs and choose not to pursue it.
That leaves 10 million people who want health insurance and can’t afford it. That’s unfortunate, but not at all the huge numbers that liberals are saying are uninsured. 3% of the population is not a crisis, no matter how you cut it.
Considering 15% of Americans (based on car insurance numbers) will avoid buying insurance even if it is MANDATORY, I think we are doing pretty good.
The ER is required to stabilize you, but not necessarily to treat. Go to the ER with breast cancer, and so long as your breathing and heart rate are fine, you are out of luck.
actually… there are programs that are spreading to almost all the ERs concerning breast cancer for people with no money.
having worked with komen for the last 3 years as a volunteer i know that if you walk into the ER and have no money and have breast cancer you won’t get turned away. if the ER does not have the program you will be sent to a local hospital or medical center that WILL treat you. however, if you just forgot your wallet at home and actually can pay for the treatment they’re going to ask for the cash back. the national grants and donations that fund this program are not limitless.
I will say that I can see where being uninsured would make it difficult to get an early diagnosis, though.
there are programs being implemented (still mostly in the larger cities though) for early detection.
just about a month ago there was a health care festival type thing in cleveland where it was estimated that 10,000 women were given breast exams over 3 days. those that needed further care received a mammogram that same weekend. for free. if the mammogram showed a sign of cancer they were enrolled in one of the programs mentioned above that same weekend. i don’t remember the acronym for the early detection program or for the free treatment program, but could probably look it up through my komen affiliate if necessary.
this was something sponsored by lots of businesses and the 2 big hospitals in town. but there are health care “festivals” cropping up in most of the big cities for the uninsured. at this one they also had free dental care (including things like extractions and the beginning stages of dentures… which would obviously require follow-up, but would still be free).
That IS a good thing!
see people!? cleveland is awesome!
No, no, no. Cleveland ROCKS.
Careful. You’re dating yourself there, D.C.
Sometimes I date myself, but it never really works out because I don’t want a commitment.
@ Rando OK, now I have a stomachache from laughing!
Is there a doctor in the house?
morticia… seeing as how re-runs of the drew carey show continue to play at like 3am on certain channels he could be not dating himself but rather outing himself as a terrible insomniac.
personally, i loved that show. grew up watching it and laughing at the stereotypes… it was based in parma. mimi (the crazy assistant) would fit in parma perfectly. obese, terrible makeup and outfits from hell. all she needs is a pink flamingo in the front yard and she’s good to go.
Shortright, there’s a woman that works in the same building that I do who I swear took Mimi from the Drew Carey Show as her makeup rolemodel…she wears stuff that a drag queen headed out for Mardi Gras would look at and say, “Nooo….too much, girlfriend!”
I’m glad someone is trying to fill in the gaps.
Sad thing–I heard that a dental ‘festival’ in California was mostly attended by folks with full-time jobs. They didn’t make enough, or didn’t have dental coverage.
Um, Shortright? Those “free breast exams” weren’t administered by drunken frat boys, were they?
Only frat boys who claim to be ‘pre-med’
As in “I’m pre-med, do you have a single?”
haha, no. i’m sure the frat boys tried… but this was all by physicians donating their time.
I think I’ve finally found my calling in life.
you could work at victoria’s secret doing bra fittings… similar concept with a slightly lower risk of being sued.
That’s a good start. Now we just need that for the elebenty zillion other health problems out there.
I’d like a cite for these numbers. I think you’re full of shit.
US census data from 2007. The 2008 numbers come out in a few weeks. Look it up.
I’m in agreement with you.
Then you’re as lazy as he is.
No, just smarter than you are. If you’re going to go spouting numbers than back up your claims. I’m not required to do your research for your b.s. hot-air-falacies.
they are refuseing to prove your point, asking you to do your own work, and they are lazy?
looks like parksj1 is looking for a internet point handout
No one has cited any of the facts and figures they are throwing out. I’m not gonna be held to higher standard than everyone else.
Plus, I did go further than anyone else. My figures came from 2007 census figures. I said that. Read the whole thread.
Oooh, I’m not supporting any internet handouts! parksj1 needs to go get a job so can buy own internet points!
Hypocrite.
Says the troll who spouts off about sarcasm detectors earlier in the thread. I would say stay classy, but you have yet to show any.
How many claims have you made throughout this conversation? And I never asked you to cite stuff. Why? Because I’m not lazy…I can look up the facts if I need to. Plus, this isn’t a court of law. It’s freaking lolz website. Get over yourself.
Oh and “I don’t believe you” is possibly the worst argument I’ve ever heard in any debate. Might as well say “I don’t have anything good to contribute, so I’m just gonna say ‘nuh-uh’ for the rest of the conversation!”
Moon men have landed and planted a flag, we dont own utah anymore!
no i dont need to cite, you have to believe what anyone on the internet says.
Your schtick is only amusing to you, grimmiekins.
Says you, sock.
U 2 SHOE!
You seem rather new. How would you know that bitter troll is grimmiekins?
He posted as himself a few lols ago. Didn’t you read it?
Besides, it really is rather pedantic and juvenille.
You’re just butthurt that the famous bitter troll doesn’t like you. Being juvenile is what makes it funny. And for a recent lurker, you sure pay a lot of attention to such minor details. Curious.
Who said recent?
And why would I remotely care about someone who, lacking the ability to make a salient point, plays the forum equivalent of “pull my finger… lol” to get attention.
More rudeness. Intriguing.
It is intriguing, isn’t it? Why would someone who claims to be intelligent such as myself resort to such childish insults as calling you butthurt over bitter troll? Why? Because you’re a sock troll and it’s fun.
“Walk into the ER without anything in your pockets and see if they will treat you. They will.”
And they will bill you for the remaining $100s if not $1000s of dollars more.
And if you can’t pay it, they write it off as a loss.
Oh, and I think they notify the credit bureaus. God forbid.
Which hurts those people’s chances of ever getting their credit in order. So, if they need a new car in the meantime, too fvcking bad. Their credit is screwed. Oh, and everyone loves to get those phones calls on a daily basis from the collection agencies telling you what a lousy human being you are for not paying your bills. Real goddamn compassionate there, pal.
We could always just give all americans new cars along with the insurance. I am sure the rich can afford to pay for it. Just a thought.
NOW you’re thinking! I love this idea!
and blackjack!
AND HOOKERS!
Forget the blackjack.
blackjack takes too much time away from the hookers
No, they do not.
That may depend on your state laws. In my state, yes, an unpaid medical bill will first go to a collection agency, and then if they have no luck and deem it worthwhile, on to court for collection that way.
And after court do they THEN write it off?
Well, if they can’t get it out of you (garnishments, liens, etc.), then, yeah, it goes on the books as a loss. It’s still a judgment against you, though.
And a credit score in the 500s before too long.
I’m waiting for someone to steal my identity so my credit will get better. I’m glad they don’t credit check you at the doctor’s office….
Honestly, I’m surprised they don’t. :-\
Yet my lawyer charges me $200 an hour, up front, before even talking to me. And charges that much for phone calls as well. We need Obama LegalAid!
Stop breaking the law, asshole!!!!!!!!
Public education did wonders for you, didn’t it? Unlike you, my contact with lawyers is about contracts and other things.
Calm down, bud. I was just quoting the movie Liar, Liar. It’s all good.
And I went to a private university, thank you very much.
And a [LINK] for parks…
Can you cite where you got these numbers? I would like to read up more on this. I have heard similar claims and the numbers that you stated seem reasonable.
Thanks
It is if you’re in that 3%. Think about it.
Um, well, let’s see…does that come with dental?
ooh, vision and PBM too, please?
Peanut butter and marshmallow?
fluffer nutter!
but no, it actually means pharmacy benefits manager/management. so, an Rx plan.
I’m ready to go postal on my rx plan. The last time I saw my doctor he prescribed like 3 medications for me. My insurance covered exactly 0 of them.
were they all proprietary or are there generics available? also, i would go postal on the doc first… i’d check with your doc if there is any other drug that will have the same effect but is covered by your insurance.
i’ve had to get a copay assistance on my one medication. even on my Rx plan the copay was $60/month. without my Rx plan it would be a lot closer to $1000/month.
I’m having a similar problem as well, I’m on an acid reflux medication that keeps my acid levels in check so my stomach and esophagus won’t be eaten alive by my stomach’s overabundant acids. My premiums rose by about 15$ a week this year and of course BC/BS has now stopped paying for my prescriptions, and that includes generics.
I’m just wondering since I have to start paying for my prescriptions, what in the hell did my premiums go UP for?
That’s the new thing. Raise rates, cut benefits. Then look at your members and say, “Oh yeah? What are you gonna do about it? Nothing? Yeah, didn’t think so.” Then they laaaaaaaugh and laaaaaaaugh. Fvckers.
Same thing happened to ice cream. Didn’t it use to come in half gallon containers? The containers keep getting smaller and smaller and the prices keep going up and up.
Rando Old Bean, it’s preposterous to compare Health Care costs to Ice Cream, and frankly beneath you.
Enslaved by the crushing, constricting walls of medical care when you need it?
My, how fabulous it is to be free…
No, doofus. Pets are owned and thus are the responsibility of their owners. You want the same perks as a pet, you get to be a pet, better known as a slave.
You’re a shithead. Don’t go insulting AC, fvckface.
Seriously Rando don’t hold back. I wanna know what you really feel.
Noooooo, you don’t. That WAS holding back. Heh.
Thanks TAR
I thought it was only PETA that referred to pets as slaves? Oddly enough, when I had a cat, I was his slave and not the other way round.
I thought the point of the government wasn’t to rule but to serve… If getting what you need what you need makes you a slave, then… Ur gubernment: I fink u broked it…
I can’t believe I’m the only person here who’s had this stuck in their head since they saw the damn lol in the first place:
Will there be another race
To come along and take over for us?
Maybe martians could do
Better than we’ve done
We’ll make great pets!
We’ll make great pets!
You know… I’m done with Sergio….
Perfect!!!! This one deserves to be forwarded to all our congressmen and women!!!!! WELL DONE!
why we need to send it to our womens?
Yes, because we want to be pets, aka slaves.
Sure we take of our animals, but I’ve not seen the government pay to take care of mine anymore than I want a bunch of unemployed, illegal aliens getting free medical care from the governtment!
They get that now, Jane. It’s the law: public hospitals have to provide care regardless of ability to pay and regardless of immigration status.
Maybe this is what needs to be reformed…
Right, just let ‘em bleed to death at the feet of armed guards outside the ER doors of your local city hospital. Grand solution that.
Obviously Jane has never been unemployed, lost her insurance coverage and been unable to afford the $500+/month COBRA payments. You’re very lucky to be able to afford health care, Jane, at least for now. You may not be so lucky in the future. So, maybe you should walk a mile in some one else’s first.
I’ve known and argument with people who have railed against the social safety net only to find themselves clinging to it desperately when some catastrophe or another shook their lives to pieces. These fu(king sociopaths don’t seem to understand that any number of horrifying circumstances can leave them without an income or a home. Not being a sociopath myself, I do feel a twinge of pity, but I will admit that there is beneath it just a soupcon of “I told you so” following years of enduring their self-centred, self-righteous, foaming-at-the-mouth, finger-pointing, whiny rage.
*argued* and possibly a few other errors I don’t have time to search for
I have been in that exact situation and I agree with Jane.
Now, STFU, and learn to take care of yourself.
Wow, you’re a compassionate one too. Why does the idea of helping all Americans turn some people into raging assholes? Greatest country in the world, huh?
Riiiggght, Dave, and you’ve NEVER availed yourself of ANY government sponsored/backed programs! BULLSH*T!! Why don’t YOU STFU. You can tell anybody to take care of themselves ONLY when YOU live completely independently of government paid programs, including fire and police departments, roads, schools, disaster relief, unemployment, water & sewage treatment, transportation, etc.
He’s posting from his ranch in the middle of nowhere with a computer he made himself using electricity he created with a windmill. The wi-fi he’s mooching from the Starbucks across the street, though. They’re everywhere, I’m telling you.
well, we already were talking about armed guards outside the food kitchens to keep out those that weren’t really hungry.
(reference: michelle obama cell phone LOL a few pages back)
Yeah, let’s don’t provide any health services to those illegal aliens. You know, the ones that handle our food and sanitation jobs and whatnot. It’s not like you could create an epidemic that way or anything.
Wow, do you really want to use that argument?
If you want to truly correlate vet care and people care, then you cannot criminalize doctors who put people out of their misery with a broken leg, or an incurable ailment, or anything where the benefit/effectiveness is less than the cost of treatment.
THANK you, someone else who supports euthanasia in humans!
…No, but seriously, stop killing animals, people.
Start adopting more, then.
but they so tastey
Poor PK Admins… pawing through all those LOLs and this is the best they could put on the front page?
And now we’re going to have threads where people are just having kittens over Obama’s health-care plan…
I hope they just limit it to kittens. The phrase “Don’t have a cow” always makes me wince a little.
I’ve also heard the phrase “Don’t have a bird”. Write your own line about peckers here…
What law is there that mandates veterinary care for animals? I have no idea of exact numbers, but I think that most animals are put to sleep in favor of exorbitant vet bills because owners simply can’t afford it.
Now if we can put people down as well instead of subsidizing their poor health choices regarding diet/exercise/drugs/alcohol/smoking/etc, I might get behind a public health plan.
Animals that are not provided with vet care are considered “neglected”, and yes, there are laws against that in this country. Ever watched Animal Cops? They pick up a dog or cat or horse that needs vet care, then they go after the owner. Some of them pay fines, some do time.
Not much of an “agent” are you?
Why do you insist on being such an asshole? My atheist friend hates people like you because you give all atheists a bad name. Being arrogant and self-righteous does not make you cool. That may be news to you…not sure.
And did you just cite the show Animal Cops as proof that vet care is mandated?
Yeah parks, you’ve been a regular pillar of integrity throughout this thread…
Silly Max, don’t you know that “Self Righteous Prick” = “Always Right”?
Ivan, while this may depend on your locality, in general the only way “not providing vet care” would = animal neglect in the legal sense of the word is if you were letting an animal you owned suffer in a fairly obvious way (e.g., dragging a broken leg around, gangrenous wounds, etc.). Failure to get rabies shots isn’t considered neglect of the animal, but a public health issue. You’re certainly not required to make regular vet visits with a healthy animal, get every vaccination that’s recommended, or even feed them anything in particular as long as you aren’t starving them.
I never said anything about rabies shots, or about routine vet care. I was referring to animals suffering in an obvious way. That’s when people call the police and/or ASPCA on folks. And yes, the law DOES go after those owners.
Thanks for clarifying what you meant, Ivan. (You just said “not provided with vet care”, which could go any number of ways.)
NP
If you do not take an animal to get vet attention if there is something wrong, if you do not get rabies shots and other vaccinations for your animal you can be fined/arrested for animal neglect/cruelty and for being a public health nuisance. Most jurisdictions have these laws.
My vet says nothing to me for not keeping up on my cats’ shots. Though I do get them other treatment when they need it (every… four years or so? not frequent anyhow) and will have them do the shots then.
I know that my vet insists that if my cats are going to be outside at all that they get rabies shots. It’s required by my city/county. As far as I know it’s not neglect but a public health issue and I could get fined for not having their rabies tags.
Now if we can put people down as well instead of subsidizing their poor health choices regarding diet/exercise/drugs/alcohol/smoking/etc, I might get behind a public health plan.
Attempt at being funny FAIL…
“Now if we can put people down as well instead of subsidizing their poor health choices regarding diet/exercise/drugs/alcohol/smoking/etc, I might get behind a public health plan.
Attempt at being human FAIL…” There, fixed it for you.
Well, truthfully, I do get tired of treating people who consistently make bad health choices then expect me to fix it. Unfortunately, we live in a such an individualistic society that anyone can smoke, drink, sleep around, and grow fat over 50-60 years and then sue me for not being able to fix it.
You’re not even my doctor and I’m gonna sue you.
Why? It’s no different than your job where you get frustrated when people who are obviously sabatoging the items they purchased from you with their obvious lack of regard for their intricacies and then expecting you to either fix or replace them.
Gah! Hit enter…
How is the purchaser’s obvious disregard for the item remotely your fault? Yet the expectation still exists that you would warrant those items. Docs can’t help but feel the same frustration, only deeper, as the items the items they are expected to repair were god-given and not doc-given.
I. Was. Kidding.
Hard to tell, considering your other posts.
And yet, it’s beneath people to use your own posts stuffed full of condescension and arrogance to call you out as a condescending, arrogant troll. So I think we’ll add “likes to use a double standard when dealing with people” to your list of socky traits.
It’s been clear for a while who you are, and you’re just cementing it in the minds of those who have realized it with every post you make.
Unbelievable.
If it makes you feel any better, I’m not sure who they think you are…. I have several suspicions. I don’t sock-hunt unless it’s the same symbol, mostly because I can’t prove it, nor do I care…
It just makes them twice the troll to aim for.
Truth be told, I really don’t care that much, I just don’t understand why I am being branded a troll for telling the truth as it is in America. For the umpteenth time, I DIDN’T CREATE THE SYSTEM! Talk to the founding fathers if you’ve got a beef with the concept of the American Dream and what it takes to achieve it. Like it or not, that’s how it works on the whole.
I could cite countless studies regarding the correlative nature of education/hard work and success: On the anecdotal side there is an entire literary sub-genre focused on the concept of “rags to riches.” (Which, if we purchase and read, is just the definition of irony.) Must I cite those in their entirety?
If it wasn’t truth, why would everyone be railing against what I have to say it with such vehemence? If it was just “my worldview” wouldn’t I just be dismissed as a whacko righty ulilaterally?
Whatever outside forces intervene, we define our own destinies That’s just how it is. If you want it more than you want your “circumstances,” than that’s on you to decide.
The thing is, Morticia, isn’t that people who are successful are very likely to have worked hard, just the opposite of the statement- those who have worked hard aren’t all successful. By the way, Cinderella was rags to riches, but she worked hard at her job before her nigh-impossible success.
Anyway, I think the entire argument is basically you saying something that SOUNDS like “rectangles are squares” and we’re screaming back “Squares are always rectangles, but rectangles aren’t always squares!”- it’s not what you’re TRYING to say, but it just sounds like you’re blaming someone who isn’t successful for their lack of success- because not everyone that works hard always makes it. There’s ALWAYS a certain amount of luck involved, and I’m sure you know that. There are still going to be people that don’t succeed, for various reasons, and not necessarily because they didn’t work hard enough or didn’t try their best. Just stop saying it so generally and we probably wouldn’t be so annoyed.
And Morticia, you said “I could cite countless studies regarding the correlative nature of education/hard work and success:” Correlation =/= causation, and that’s what I think most of us are trying to say here.
But Igor, you’re simply ignoring that fact that It is, what It is.
And you know what I have to say to that? F*CK YOU PENNYWISE!!! I’M SCARED OF CLOWNS BECAUSE OF YOU!
Evil lurks in his eyes
The clown they call, Pennywise
He’ll catch you by surprise
The clown they call, PENYYWISE!!
mMmMMMMmMmMmmm Phencyclidine….
I prefer Angel Dust. MmmMMmMMmmMmmmm
Pssst.. Ivan.. “angel dust” is the street name for PCP.. which is Phencyclidine.
Here, try some. *hands over tinfoil wrapped powder*
I knew that, little mermaid. I was being a smart-ass.
Aww, I love you Ivan.
I love you back, little mermaid.
“Have you ever tried sugar… or PCP?”
Where is that from?
Mitch Hedberg, speaking on confusing interview questions.
“So you’re a comic, can you write?”
That’s not fair…
“So you’re a cook…. can you FARM?”
I was gonna say, PCP in the coffee doesn’t taste good.
Wow, you must be one truly fit individual to make such a bold claim. And your family must be very fit as well or else you wouldn’t suggest we put them down for any of the problems you mentioned. I think following your advice would put a serious dent in our population.
I think following your advice would put a serious dent in our population.
You say that like it’s a bad thing.
You are one twisted troll.
Comrade Maxwell, add Morticia to the death panels, please.
Well, humans ARE considered parasites of the earth in some liberal ideologies, aren’t they? That being my point, of course.
Maybe some bizarre fringe ideology, like perhaps an environmentalist extremist. But in general we liberals love the peoples. We want to help all the people. Except you, of course. We don’t like you.
Comrade Maxwell and his consort Jane are in the Fortress, Comrade Rando. I have added the troll to the Death Panels.
Excellent work, Comrade Charro. Emperor Obama will be pleased.
Killing me for my subversive beliefs? My god, that smacks of… fascism! Would you like to tattoo me now or later, Reichsführer
This is not fascism! This is socialism!!
Emperor Obama will NOT be questioned!!!!!
This is socialism!
THIS. IS. SPAAAARRRRRTTTTTTAAAA!
I vote we all go “meditate” for a few hours.
Collectively.
Emperor Obama says we should.
Well, at least, he says that someone should HELP our resident awesomeness meditate.
I’m certain you didn’t like your parents when they laid out the realities of the world, either, but that didn’t make them any less correct in their assertions and teachings, now did it?
Heh. You don’t know my parents. Bad, bad example. LOL
Can’t fault a parentless gal for trying, now canya?
This is Pundit Kitchen. We can fault you for ANYthing.
Point. Set. Match.
That’s dismissive and trite, and you know it. Rise above.
You’re quoting me, and thus, I win!!!
You really should refrain from such outbursts. You diminish your argument, and thus your intellect, with such displays. Rise above.
I am honored by your obvious supplication. Now lick my boots.
Ah ah ah… you’re being arrogant. Rise above.
Nah. Just stating the obvious.
The obvious fact that you’re far lower than you think you are? Glad we’re in agreement… FINALLY.
Quoting and mocking are not the same thing.
Quoting is homage to superiority.
Not necessarily.
Sometimes I quote out of sheer disbelief at the statement. Repetition of nonsense highlights the nonsense.
Whatever you say, turb.
Imitation is always the sincerest from of flattery.
Mustn’t stoop to name calling. Rise above.
That “turb” was supposed to be a hyperlink to a quotation.
I’ll need to learn the coding here, apparently.
As a side note, I am thrilled and honored that “rise above” is such a resounding success. Hooray for me!
And with each post, you make us consider Death Panels more and more seriously. Hasten the Revolution!
first thing we do is spay and neuter all the idiots who don´t want to have a healthy country.
What pretty Socks is saying is not true. Although most states, if not all, have laws against unhumane treatment fior animals, only some include veterinary care in an actual law. My opinion? If you are ordering a pet (not livestock to be consumed by the public) to have a doctor, that is a serious breach of privacy. Animals, as much I and everyone else loves them, are NOT humans; period. Whether you care to give your pet the same, or better, treatment than humans recieve, that is entirely up to you, and not the government. Please, other animal-lovers, do not take offense.
Knowledge and common sense WIN.
Comprehension Fail.
Failing to provide vet care for an ailing pet is “inhumane treatment” and punishable by law. In EVERY state. *Animal lover, taking offense*
Not providing vet care for an ailing pet that doesn’t belong to you is not “inhumane treatment” and is not punishable by law.
hello? bonk bonk. you awake?
You’ve just proved yourself an idiot. Congratulations!
Please explain. Your brilliance entertains me.
If the animal isn’t YOUR PET, YOU are not responsible for it’s care. A pet is, be definition, an animal that belongs to you. Idiot.
No, a pet is any animal under someone’s care. And, you’re proving my point exactly. I’m not responsible for your pet, nor a stray. Nor should I be responsible for your family or someone out on the street.
Yes, I am a heartless jerk. If you’re really that upset about people not getting health care, then go out and use your money to pay for it. Leave mine alone.
Ah, so, now we get to the heart of it. Since you have your own health insurance, fvck the rest of us, huh? You’ve got your healthcare intact, so who gives a shit what happens to the poor people who can’t afford insurance or the health care they need, right? You suck, ass maggot.
I have SUCH a man-crush on you right now.
I do what I can.
You really should refrain from such outbursts. You diminish your argument, and thus your intellect, with such displays. Rise above.
Against the trolls? Nah, this is more fun. Arguing with trolls is pointless. They don’t listen anyway. Better to blow off some steam.
Nevertheless, it does delegitimize your argument when you regress to the level of a 12-teen tryin’ out his new mommy’s-not-around cursing skills.
If you don’t care, I can get behind that.
I don’t like to waste my good arguments for the inflammatory trolls who have nothing good to say.
I haven’t seen a good argument yet.
So, tell me. Why should I be forced to hand over the money that I work hard for to someone like you (or anyone else)? I seriously want to know your reasoning other than it just feels right. Keep in mind that I do value my family over anyone else.
Because everyone deserves access to affordable health care. If you can’t take care of your family because all your money is going to universal health care, then something has gone wrong. Nobody is suggesting that happen. Don’t be ridiculous. Are you against everyone having access to affordable health care, or do you not give a shit because your family is covered?
I’m all for affordable health care for everyone. That’s great. However, that’s not what we’re talking about. The issue is that the government wants to take away my health care, which isn’t perfect, but it’s good, and replace it with crap that they think I deserve. Now, why would I want that? Why hurt those of us that have for everyone else?
What I don’t agree with, is that I should have to pay for your health care (or anyone else’s but my own). Yes, I do have health care because I worked between 60 – 80 hours a week while going through college. In other words, I sacrificed a lot so that I could have a comfortable life and the necessities for my family. So, yes, I have a very hard time figuring out why I need to pay for people that won’t put forth the effort.
Let’s see how good your health care seems when you get a claim refused or your policy cancelled because you forgot to mention that you had a tonsilectomy at 5 or something.
All I see is a jealous child right now. Yes, I do worry about myself more than I do you. I have worked hard to get where I am. And, if you think making a little over 35k is rich or fortunate, I feel sorry for you. It’s called money management. You should look it up sometime. However, I guess it’s just easier to stand there with your hand out.
I don’t get any fvcking handouts. I’m in the nasty middle class that’s not poor enough to get handouts and not rich enough to actually pay the bills. That being said, I’ve been in far worse situations than I’m in now. I *have* health insurance, dipshit, that’s not the point. The point is that since you have yours, you don’t give a shit about anyone else and your lack of compassion for humanity while prizing your earnings is pathetic.
Eric has two children and a wife, and from what I can tell, works as hard as anybody else. I’m not sure, but I doubt that he’s begging for handouts.
Thanks a lot for your advice though, asshole.
No handouts, just a lucky break every once in a while. Not that I’ve had one of those lately. LOL
one of these days i’ll feel the urge to play the lottery (never have, ever) and if i win big i’ll give you some cash… that way we can cover both ends of the political spectrum while being haughtily supercilious lording our wealth over all the little middle class folk.
*laughs maniacally*
Shortright, that would totally be a HANDOUT.
That would make Rando EVIL.
Because receiving HELP is WRONG!
-Snorts and runs around in circles more-
Could just call it charity. Help via charity is Good. Help via Government EEEBUL.
No, Danbala, anybody doing anything good for each other or humanity is an act of wrongness and should be marked as such by the removal of a limb when such an act is performed.
That’s right, Igor. Anyone who isn’t well off just is a lazy fvck who isn’t trying very hard and should be SHUNNED by society! We shun the have-nots for not being as good as the haves!
Rando, does your mouth usually feel this dirty and possibly infected after using sarcasm on an idiot like that?
Yeah, but I think I just need a new toothbrush. No biggie.
Anyone else notice that all the folks who are against universal healthcare seem to think that all of us who want it, don’t have it?
So far I’ve only counted 1 or 2 among us who don’t have health insurance, who like the rest, want affordable options for everyone else.
It cracks me up that you think that the government taking my money so to give to you is an act of kindness in any sense of the word on my part. The only reason I do it is so that I don’t go to jail. There are plenty of broken systems out there now where you can get a handout. We don’t need another. Furthermore, there are charities. And, if your life sucks so much that you can’t even get help there, I would assume you have friends and family (which is who I would turn to first). The way I see it, if your friends and family won’t help you out, there’s probably a good reason. They know you better than anyone…
Again, I just want to keep what I work for. Don’t push your problems off on me. I have plenty of my own.
Perhaps you should try spending some of the time you’re spending on here spreading conservatroll FUD on researching the actual cost to you of universal health care if you only make $35k? I’m in the UK, make similar money, and get health care, unemployment insurance, and a basic pension for a payment of about $3k a year.
$1,684.80 per year for health. Right now, I’m paying $7,673.38 in taxes per year. That’s if this BS health plan doesn’t go through. How much will they raise my taxes after?
As far as the pension thing goes, we have social security (which is a bunch of crap too because the government can’t manage money at all). It’s rolled into our taxes. Please see above.
Unemployment is also rolled into taxes. And, if I ever have to draw it (yes, I’m fine with drawing unemployment IF YOU PAY INTO IT) It’s only about $300 a week and there are limits on it (26 week maximum, have to wait 3 weeks to draw, etc), and, it’s taxable income.
I was under the impression that companies pay into unemployment, not taxing the rest of us.
It’s still money that the government is taking. If they didn’t take it, I could get it in my pay instead to use how I see fit. Call it what you want. I don’t care.
Well, if you believe that companies will automatically put money that they don’t pay into taxes into employees’ pay, and if you have believed another 2 impossible things before lunch, then why not round it off with breakfast at Milliways’, the Restaurant at the End of the Universe?
Alternatively, why not just come up with a better argument than “I’m alright Jack, and screw everyone else”?
I still go back to, it’s my money. I would like to spend it on what I want. Forced charity is not charity. If you want to save the world, go right ahead. Leave me out of it.
I don’t understand your false sense of entitlement. You did not earn the money I make. Why do you feel you have a right to take it?
So your argument is that you’re a selfish prick who doesn’t want to help anyone else and that it’s your right. Good luck with that. I have to go weep for the human race now. How sad it is that you put more importance on your money than on other people. I poop in your soup, mutha fukka.
Here’s the thing, there’s no way that the government can support so many people and all of the illegals. I like my insurance. I do not want it taken away for the sub par crap that they want to shove down our throats. Furthermore, when they figure out that they can’t afford to pay for everyone, either taxes will go up again, or coverage will go down. Again, no, I don’t want this. Lastly, this gives them a chance to start controlling us even more. Do you really want to have congress making your medical decisions instead of you and your doctor? I really don’t.
And, yes, my main argument is that it’s my money. It’s kind of funny that I think you people are the selfish pricks because you want to take what’s not yours because either you don’t want to get a job that has insurance, you wasted your life on drugs/alcohol, you were too cool for school, or any one of a million other decisions that YOU made, not me. And, if you’re a small business owner, that’s great. However, the only way to get ahead is by good planning and budgeting. I would seriously hope that this would be one thing that you budgeted for. If not, again, it wasn’t my decision and it wasn’t my lack of planning.
Oh noes! You introducted logic and common sense into the argument! Didn’t you know there’s no room for that HERE?!
No one was talking about YOU providing vet care to your neighbors pet, or a stray. You ARE responsible for YOUR pet.
And now, I’ve wasted as much time on you as I intend to. Begone, troll.
I’ll try to spell this out one more time. Please read it before you flame. I know this is asking a lot.
I agree, I am responsible for MY pet. Just as I am responsible for MY family. You are responsible for YOUR pet and YOUR family. Don’t put your problems on me. I have enough to deal with.
Let me spell this out for you so that you understand. I’ll use small words:
Your pet and your family are not the same in terms of care. If you take your pet to the vet because it is sick and you can’t pay, I am not then asked (as a payer into insurance) to help cover the cost of that pet. Also, no pet will of its own volition go to the vet for a runny nose knowing it can’t pay.
The difference is that there are some people who truly can’t afford insurance, and unfortunately, everyone else has to help cover that cost. Otherwise, you have people dying in the streets. THe rampant abuse of the system is where the problem lies, not in helping out your neighbor.
Again, I’m going to be the heartless jerk that I am and say that I do not care if you can afford it or not. That’s not my concern. My concern is me and my family and I work very hard to make sure that they are provided for. And, I can provide a lot better for my family, even with my meager wages, than any government system.
And, why does “everyone have to cover the cost?” Where in the constitution does it say that everyone should have health care or that it is the government’s job to provide it?
It doesn’t, but that’s not the issue here. When an uninsured person goes to the ER or a doctor for medical care and then can’t pay for it, you don’t just kick them out and let them die in the street. The doctor or hospital has to eat that cost and get it back in other ways. Otherwise, the hospital or doctor will shut down due to negative income and we will all be screwed. Healthcare isn’t necessarily a basic right guaranteed by the Constitution, but Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness are, and in order to have life, sometimes you have to go to the doctor. The cost of those people who simply can’t afford insurance (I’m not talking about moochers here, they can fall off a cliff as far as I’m concerned) is rolled over onto us with insurance and the money to pay it as a necessary part of the cost of doing business.
“Again, I’m going to be the heartless jerk that I am and say that I do not care if you can afford it or not.”
Well, I’ve got nothing to add. You’ve pretty much summed it up there. Well done.
“My concern is me and my family and I work very hard to make sure that they are provided for.”
So do I, but I still feel compassion who don’t have it this good. Which is weird that I’m saying that, but things could be much worse off for me.
“So do I, but I still feel compassion who don’t have it this good.”
That’s awesome. Give away your money if it makes you feel good. Leave mine alone. Quit forcing your “values” and beliefs on me.
Furthermore, the Life part of the constitution does not mean that the government has to provide you with health care. It means that they nor anyone else has the right to murder you. It was taken from this phrase “no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty, or possessions.” How in the world do you get that it is the government’s responsibility to provide free health care from that?
“Quit forcing your “values” and beliefs on me.” Does anyone else find this statement hysterically funny (and completely ironic) coming from a Conservatroll?
I love how, when you can’t argue logically, you resort to name calling. And, look back over all of these posts. When have I ever tried to push my values or beliefs on you? All I’ve said is that I will worry about me and mine. You worry about you and yours. If you don’t like your life, change it. Don’t force me to change mine to compensate for yours.
“That’s awesome. Give away your money if it makes you feel good. Leave mine alone.”
No.
Geez, man, what’s wrong with all of us looking after each other? Why does it have to be every man for himself? Sounds sad to me. Not particularly civilized either.
Absolutely nothing, and I’m happy to do so of my own voalition. Compelling me to do so just pisses me off.
So what happens when the generous are all tapped out? There is not enough charity and generosity to fix our health care system.
When the generous are tapped out, then those lazy slackers at the bottom just need to work harder. Geez, Rando, haven’t you been paying attention?
It’s NOT every man for himself, Rando. Americans have historically been the most generous and exceptional people in the world with regards to their time and their money, making the lives of the poor here greater than the lives dreamed of by the poor anywhere else – sometimes even greater than the rich of elsewhere. You’re suggesting that doing it by force through the most inefficient means possible will achieve the same results despite the fact that history teaches us UNEQUIVOCALLY, and so do the laws of economics, that such plans only result in a halt to progress and economic ruin. Also, when the rich are tapped out, they are tapped out for giving into the government system too, quite obviously. Plus people don’t take too kindly about being robbed – do you even understand the concept of Atlas shrugging? We already know what happens when such plans are undertaken – there is no need for us to follow in their disastrous footsteps. I have two videos I think would really open your eyes on this; one is short and fun, the other is long and very fun. But please do watch them so you can begin to understand what we’re talking about here. (By the way whatever zombie suggested I was Morticia can stuff if up their ass. She’s a lot nicer than me, first of all, and I don’t make socks. Everyone already KNOWS this FFS. Idiot. I want full credit for every word I say.)
{http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxnBSb4OKeU}
Left to our own devices, we DO look out for one another. Raped and robbed, not so much.
Why America is far superior to all the existing soft tyranny socialist countries in the world. Objectively and with solid numbers to back it up.
{http://www.pjtv.com/video/Afterburner_with_Bill_Whittle/_Bill_Maher,_Barack_Obama_and_the_Truth_About_American_Exceptionalism/2378/8861/}
Morticia can at least convince us she doesn’t have tourrette’s….
Wrong. I read the laws of my state and nowhere does it say that I have to provide vet care. I have to provide shelter, food, and water and I’m not allowed to actively harm the animal, but I do not have to provide vet care. Sorry, nice try.
Also, I am allowed to kill the animal as long as I do it humanely (shooting it rather than strangling it Michael Vick-style).
By allowing YOUR pet to suffer, you are actively harming him. Sorry, nice try.
Ivan is right, Parksj1.
The problem is that they’d have to prove criminal negligence, but if you’re treating the animals the way you claim to be allowed to, that shouldn’t be too tough.
That only applies if the animal is sick; it doesn’t apply to preventive stuff that isn’t required, guys, so nice try but he doesn’t have to provide vet care unless he has a sick animal that is already suffering. Oops.
Everyone seems to be missing the larger point – animals are OWNED by humans. You can only make a comparison if humans were OWNED by others and that is slavery. Which we are headed towards in a rocket car – being slaves to our own government which is supposed to stay the hell out of our lives except to provide for our common defense and promote interstate trade. God, does no one understand the bill of rights anymore? WE AREN’T PETS and WE WILL NOT BE SLAVES.
I don’t see how free health care = slavery.
Apparently Annie, Parks, Morticia, and the others just need to go live on an island somewhere. So they can be left alone without the evil socialist government taking their money to give to the less fortunate.
clearly this cat is a commie socialist murderer
But that’s ok because he didn’t kill 6 million people…yet.
ya but hitler wasnt a commie..so clearly this cat…worseer then hitler
But not as bad as Obama. Obama is teh babeh killuh!!!!
banish the evil cats
MUUUURRRDERRRRR!!!
Completely off topic but I just now noticed that Sox was a polydactyl cat. Cool.
My mother’s cat has baseball mitts for front paws–and she uses those ‘thumbs’, too!
Horse shit. Socks is not a dinosaur, he’s a cat!
Prove it!!
Damn. Good one. If I only had a picture of Socks to prove it…
Ok, look, this is top secret but he really is a dinosaur. The whole “cat” appearance is a disguise. But you didn’t hear it from me.
Those damn Clintons cover up everything!!
Yeah, I seem to recall something about Socks being a Hemingway cat descendant, but my memory isn’t what it used to be.
Animal-owners have to care for their animals, but nobody owns the people of the U.S. (not for 150 years), and certainly not the government.
Don’t mandate kindness, generosity, or love for one’s neighbor please. This is state, not church.
YA! dont tell me who i can and cant love! if i want to hate old man bacon down the street, then i have the right to hate him
If i want to love on his underage daughter then i should have every right tohey…get these handcuffs off me…let me go! HELP HELP IM BEING REPRESSED
chris hansen just wants to talk to you… don’t fight, it’ll only make it worse.
HELP ME JERATH THE GOBLIN KING HELP HELP!!
Have a seat please. Now…just what. do you. think. you’re DOING???
So, as noted above in various ways, most people believe (and I think rightly) that people who have claimed responsibility for any domestic animal(s) are, in fact, responsible for providing appropriate health care to that/those critters (I’m not even going to go into euthanasia, please don’t start – different discussion). Likewise, parents/guardians are considered (again rightly, in my opinion) to be responsible for providing health care for children in their care. I’m hoping everyone can agree on this? So is the question just how much the government owns/owes us?
I pay for national health care right now, of which I receive no direct benefit, because I’m not old enough. Note my phrasing though: “direct benefit”. It’s like people whining about “I don’t have kids in school, why do I have to pay property tax? Waah!!” Well, I could say that I haven’t been robbed nor has my house burned down; why should I pay for police or firefighters? I hope this isn’t too subtle.
My employer pays over $13,000/year for my family’s health care (HMO); I only pay $42.83/week (plus $20 co-pays for each visit, or $40 for specialists). That’s $2,227.16 from me plus $13,000 from my employer (over 130,000 employees – think about that – and who knows how many retirees) – the total is over $15,200. My YTD medicare payments are $1,367.90. Dental isn’t too bad – only $166.68 so far this year. Except, of course, that I have significant out-of-pocket expenses (that does not include orthodontic work or poor maintenance – just routine cleaning etc.). I still don’t know what I’ll end up owing for my 14-year-old’s wisdom teeth surgery a few weeks back – hopefully less than $2,500. All this is for myself plus two or more family members (I have two kids, so there are four of us – this is a rare instance where one receives a benefit for having many many kids). The numbers I’m providing would be paid by anyone in the company for which I work who chose the same options – I’m neither bragging nor whining here, just presenting facts. Leaving out dental, that’s over $16,500 paid for health care in a year (well, actually, it will be a bit higher, since I haven’t finished paying Medicare for the year).
The whole anti-nationalized thing mostly seems to me like fear of change. It does work in other places, it will cost money, they will tap the “Bank of the Middle Class” just like they did for the bailout and just like they always will. Get used to it. Carve a slot in your back. Look at the numbers, at the percentage of our GDP that’s spent on health care vs. the rest of the world.
Personally, I think we do need to adjust the rules for Pharmaceutical companies, and we need to maybe scrutinize the FDA as well – at least compare it to other places. Likewise we need a “loser pays” clause for malpractice suits (or lawsuits in general). We also need to take a really really hard look at the insurance companies and medical equipment providers and see what’s going on there. Finally, and this is harsh, we need to penalize people who refuse to take healthy steps for themselves – if they won’t exercise, eat right, quit smoking or drinking etc. they should pay more for health care. The first step in any nationalized health care system should be about prevention and education.
It’s interesting that Canadians (on average) go to the doctor more often than Americans; they don’t have to (directly) pay for it. This is human nature: if it costs you something you pay more attention than if it’s just given to you. I believe that’s the only reason I have co-pays – to make me think about going to the doctor (it does not really defray the cost of the visit, which is usually around what, $200 or something? See? I don’t even know).
Holy crap, did I write all that? Sorry!
You did and I can relate to everything you wrote. My circumstances are vastly different now, and being on the other side of the coin (national healthcare), I much prefer what I had in the States compared to what I have here in Australia.
Can I get the Cliff’s Notes version?
No. Well, for a slightly higher fee, I guess.
Yes; I like to think of a copay as one of the initial triage steps of any medical issue! (1) Ouch. That hurts. (2) Do I require medical attention? (3) Maybe. (4) Do I require medical attention to the extent that I want to cough up $25? Or is it something urgent enough that I’m willing to cough up my $125 emergency room copay?
“Your arm’s off!”
“No it isn’t. I can’t afford the co-pay.”
(Sorry, couldn’t resist)
I will say, though, that I’ve seen people who don’t have copays on their insurance utilizing healthcare providers for issues which, if they had to pay even $5 or $10, they probably would reconsider. Like the woman who brought her toddler in after it had gotten hold of a glue-trap for mice. Not because she was concerned there might be poison involved…but because she couldn’t get the sticky off with soap and water. *headdesk* Call your momma, call a friend, call the manufacturer, try rubbing alcohol, nail polish remover, vegetable oil? Nope….go to the urgent care pediatric clinic.
I have my own triage–is my cold bad enough to make it worthwhile to be on hold at the doctor’s office to try and get an appointment that I can work in around my teaching schedule? Usually not. I only bother when I don’t feel well enough to drive to work, which makes actually getting to the doctor’s…interesting.
Agreed, not to mention the important question I left out: “Is there anything my doctor can actually DO about this?
That’s an easy one. Am I producing loverly yellow or green crapola? If yes, then the doc can help. Sorry, but TMI is how I teach!
My insurance doesn’t have co-pays, but it has 80/20 co-insurance. Trust me, that 20% makes us think twice before a LOT of things we go to the doctor for. Back in February I had pneumonia over the weekend, but didn’t know it. Didn’t want to go to the urgent care because I didn’t want the bill. I finally did after I called into work and they were furious with me (I had missed the previous 3 weeks following my baby dying). Pathetically enough, once I got back to work, I was written up for not coming back on the day I said I would for something that wasn’t my fault. Then they kicked sand in my face. Well not really. But the rest is true.
Sorry to hear it Eric. We lost one eight months in between the two I have now. I can’t think of anything worse.
Sorry, that doesn’t parse – eight months into the pregnancy, after my oldest and before my youngest.
I’m sorry to hear that.
Your fifth paragraph is what bothers me the most. This is complete government control over me. I’m sorry, but I don’t want a bureaucrat in D.C. dictating what I can and cannot eat (anymore than they already do). And, what is the penalty?
Also, this opens the door wide open to them intruding into my personal life (even more than they already do). Maybe I’m a bit too paranoid, but I think I should be the one making my own health decisions.
I understand, but I don’t think I had the gub’mint looking at you so much as what it gives away to the lawyers, pharmaceuticals and insurance companies. Wait, are you a pharmaceutical company? I didn’t think they allowed those here! Dagnabbit, where’s that moderator. And GOML!
Wups, sorry – my silliness gland has been completely overclocked lately. Anyhow, I see contradictory things going on here:
1. Health care is too expensive.
2. We don’t want nationalized health care.
3. We want all the health care we can get, but we don’t want to accept any responsibility for our own health, nor do we want to pay for it.
It’s kind of like the old software joke:
1. Fast
2. Good
3. Cheap
Pick any two.
Quick question: who reading this chooses/has chosen/would choose a doctor based on cost (assuming you have a choice)? How about a surgeon? How about a surgeon for your wife or child?
Regarding your quick question, that reminds me of looking at a half-page ad in my local newspaper for laser eye surgery advertising it as being “As little as $X per eye!!!” and remarking that I don’t know that I’d want to take the low bid on anyone coming near my EYES with a frickin’ LASER!
Does that answer that question?
Jeff Foxworthy wants his joke back.
His *makes quotation marks in the air* “laser” joke?
Did he say that, too? Lol…Maybe I heard it before I said it, but that’s the first thing I thought when I saw the ad! (I’m very protective of my eyes.)
No, Foxworthy did a bit very similar to what diss said about cheap eye surgery. He said he wouldn’t want to go to the cheapest around. He’d prefer to go to someone who takes pride in his work.
“People don’t appreciate stuff they don’t pay or work for.”
Some people. Other than that I think your post is sense-making.
Could we compromise on most? And thanks.
Maybe depends on what “free” things we talk about. I suspect most people actually appreciate being put in a hospital bed and treated back to health if they suffer from a life-threatening disease, even if they don’t have to pay for it.
I was thinking more of my 85-year-old father-in-law who is at least 120 pounds overweight (possibly more), diabetic and has had hypertension for over 40 years. He goes to – and this is no exaggeration – at least five (I think it’s more, actually) different doctors and gets annoyed when they tell him things like “exercise, lose weight, cut down on the alcohol”. I’m guessing he’s in one doctor’s office or other at least four times each month. Sometimes, if they don’t tell him what he wants to hear, he’ll go to the VA hospital instead. If Medicare and company-sponsored insurance (he’s been retired for at least 30 years) weren’t available, would he do the same thing? If he could, at no cost to himself, be healthier and require less care and drugs by losing weight, exercising and cutting back on alcohol, shouldn’t he? Instead, he complains when he has to pay anything for medical, but he isn’t paying a fraction of even what I pay, and we don’t even go in that often – I don’t think my kids have been in this year, but my wife might’ve had a checkup or two. When my kids were born it was all covered by insurance; now it will cost me (or anyone else in my family) $200/night. Don’t mistake me, I love my father-in-law, but I think he really needs five or more doctors.
Er, that should be “…don’t think he really needs…” (sorry)
Oh, yes, I am absolutely certain that people in general (maybe every one, some time) totally take some things for granted and abuse the system (even if it’s not intentional or malicious abuse).
You’ll always get all sorts of people – you’ll have those who abuse an insurance that they do pay for, and who’ll gladly pay the per-visit fee as well because they’re hypochondriacs or the doctor’s examination is the only proper attention they get from fellow human beings, or … and on the other side you have those who even if it is perfectly free to see a doctor won’t go there until they’re dying because they don’t want to be a bother or are generally worried about visiting doctors (because then you might find out you’re sicker than you though), and just about any mix in between.
I am uncertain which way is the best way to deal with any of it. Just adding my two cents worth, just because I can! ;p
That’s kind of another point – it’s not that my FIL is abusing the system per se (I’m sure he doesn’t think of it that way) so much as he assumes/feels/believes that he’s entitled to this kind of care. This is not a reflection on him – this is human nature. Most people don’t just shrug and say “Ok.” when they lose something they’ve come to take for granted.
The other problem is that there needs to be actual judgment involved – for example, I think breast reconstruction due to cancer treatment or trauma or significant disfigurement should be covered, but augmentation, lifts? No. That’s a personal decision – I don’t care if it’s a self-esteem issue. Same with any ED drugs – pay for it yourself, if it’s that important to you (I would be willing to). What did they do before Viagra? Eye surgery – cataracts? Sure. Just so you don’t have to wear glasses or contacts? I don’t think so – pay for it yourself. So can we just make a policy to say “None of these and none of those” or should we actually make some effort to do the right thing? Oh wait, that’s not easy, never mind.
I’m a primary-care physician and what Bodo says here is absolutely true. I recently moved from a clinic in southern Louisiana where I saw 75% medicaid. These were the worst patients imaginable. They consistently disregarded my instructions, had no interest in their own health and only came in when they actually felt bad from the damage they did to their own bodies. I have now moved further north and no longer see adult medicaid (I can’t hold the kids responsible for their social situation). I am MUCH happier with my patient population. I think you should charge them SOMETHING, even a dollar would be preferable to making it completely free. If we did that you’d be much less likely to have the guy who only needed a work excuse call an ambulance to take him to the ER(true story, I refused to write him the excuse).
I’m not a physician, but I know lots of people who refuse to use our “free at point of use” system because the don’t want to bother the doctor with something minor. Bottom line is bad people are bad people whether they have to pay money or not.
Yes, that was what I meant with the “unintentional abuse” – I think most of those people who “over-use” (better expression?) health care don’t do it to be mean or think of it as abuse.
And yes, I agree that there should be some limit to what is covered. In broad terms, I’d say the limit that makes sense to me is “anything that a doctor decides is vital to the person’s health” – with checks in place to make sure doctors aren’t bribed to deem breast augmentation vital, and so on. Something like that, but probably with many exceptions.
Oh, and would you like some cardboard with Cheez Wizz? I’ve got extra here (the kids don’t seem to be very hungry tonight – perhaps they snacked at school).
Oh cool, I found a Jolly Rancher in the seat cushions – now we’ve got dessert…
Jolly Ranchers? I love those, especially…uh…fuzz flavored. Ew.
Actually this one is fuzz and…cat hair, it looks like. Yum.
Kids! Dessert! Don’t fight over it, dagnabbit!
(at least the fuzz is plaid…)
Wait, we don’t have a plaid couch…Kids!
tl;dr, just another brick in the wall of text.
because we’re animals that nobody owns
-stuffs da-lappy in a cage- NO TREAT FOR YOU
You and me, baby, ain’t nothin’ but mammals…
so lets do it like they do on discovery channel..
I dont want a narrator talking when thats happening O_O
“As you can see here, the female of the species has chosen to mount the male reverse cowgirl style and showing her appreciation of the male’s mating techniques…”
That’s because humans aren’t owned by anyone but themselves.
i’d like to believe you but, tyrannical rules, religious leaders and imposed moral justice systems have been “owning” humans for centuries. look back to the inquisition, if you didn’t belong to the church you were a heretic and were, more or less, killed. same with the nazi’s in WW2, same with Scotland or Ireland or whoever you want to choose – there’s always been someone imposing their will on someone else. The notion that humans are free is an illusion at best.
Even the guy at the top of the chain of leaders are still bound by physical laws and even death, so in a sense they’re slaves to *ques dramatic music* the universe!!!!
::head explodes::
OK… So the argument is nobody wants to be forced to pay for universal health care.
So why is everyone OK with paying for corporate welfare (subsidies).
Or paying for a bloated military?
FYI – every program that lives on tax payer money is socialist. i.e. Military, Police Department, Fire Department, Postal Service, Roads, Freeways, sidewalks, etc.
This country has been socialist far longer than anyone realizes.
I think most people were against the bailouts, but I could be wrong on that one. As for a bloated military, what would you like, one that is on a par with Canada? There are some things you’re just going to have to pony up the money for. That being public services such as you describe. You do realize that you reap a benefit from them right?
I’ll be the one voice that will say, I have no problems paying into a universal health care plan.
And I love your post
I’ll be the voice that seconds that.
Right there with you.
Good- the government is sending the bill to you now….
And you too Comrade!
Heath Insurance companies have turned the industry into a monopoly. All you health insurance company pundits really don’t’ have a clue about what you are talking about.
This bill isn’t about health care reform, it is about health insurance reform. Has anyone here actually read the bill? If you had you would know that it hurts nobody but the corporations charging %400 more for something everyone else in the world gets far far cheaper.
It may be cheaper, but I suspect the quality of care isn’t as good in some cases.
Has anyone here actually read the bill?
diss has. and i’m pretty sure she’ll tell you that you’re really really wrong.
but i can tell you that right now. there is NO 400% markup for health insurance. we (i’m in the industry) do NOT make the sort of profit you think we do. now, health CARE might have a 400% markup… but that’s a whole different topic. apples to oranges.
not to mention… i believe all the other systems are not national health insurance plans. they are national health care plans. which would be why they’re abbreviated to NHC’s. but of course, you knew that, right? which is why you’re interchangeably using health insurance and health care…
“but i can tell you that right now. there is NO 400% markup for health insurance. we (i’m in the industry)”
Nuff said. Because anything you said after that wouldn’t have the slightest slant or bias…
shortright isn’t exactly a rich industry executive (I don’t think) and doesn’t have anything to gain from lying about her job.
and she’s cute
rando – i wish i was a rich fat cat. i’d own a house by now… and a couple fast cars!
BT – gaw. thanks!
That was sarcasm if you aren’t smart enough to realize.
Let me guess. You work in E.R. I have been to an E.R. before. I was turned away because I had no insurance, then they had the nerve to send me a bill.
Or do you work in accounting? So how is your ‘pay or die’ health care system working for you?
You must not live in the U.S then. Some of the people you see getting care, and you expect me to believe you got turned away. I don’t buy it.
It’s against Federal Law (EMTALA) to refuse to see a patient in the ER- but it is okay to see them, rule out an emergent medical condition and tell them that they can be treated but will have to pay. This is solely to cut down on the sheer abuse of the ER by some people who see it as a Free Clinic and use up desperately needed beds.
I totally agree with your stance. Public Option? I’m in. But please don’t attack shortright with nasty names and over-the-top nastiness. She’s an awesome lady.
thanks ivan! *hugs*
*Snuggles his goddess* We disagree, but not by being ugly!
And I’ll bet you feel bad for calling me a jackass.
i had to! we were having a civil discussion on PK… you can’t *do* that. it’s like one of the signs of the apocalypse or something.
however, i like disagreeing with you because you do it intelligently and i feel like i’m learning not beating my head against a wall.
oh and you need to get on el facebook-o. all the cool kids are in the PK group. i consider you a cool kid, so you should do it.
which is okay to do now that it’s not a totally public group and all your real life friends can no longer follow you here to see what nonsense we’re all saying.
All that Facespace, Mybook stuff creeps me out. *shiver*
noooo! we’re cool! we’re friends! we’re not stalkers (maybe charro is, but she’s still cool). join us, it’s fun*!
* – we can bash the trolls there without them ever knowing about it.
You little temptress you!
*shakes hips*
*readjusts boobs in push up bra*
*checks hair and makeup in mirror*
who? me?
*brain seizes and smoke begins to pour from ears*
I think this will get him back into working, or at least vomiting, condition.
Revert the state of too-much hot with a state of disgusting unattractiveness…
-Walks around corner in banana hammock-
You have to have a banana in order to wear the hammock
-Glares at Froo-
Bwahahahaha!!!!
*stuffs a plantain into Igor’s Hammock*
They have the “lover’s curve”!
Oh I see you work for an insurance company. So what makes you think anyone not working for a bunch of blood suckers would believe anything you say? How many sick people have you denied coverage they were already paying for?
so, at 1:31 you realized i worked in insurance and discounted anything else i said. but at 1:33 you asked if i worked in the ER. and then at 1:36 you AGAIN noticed i work in insurance?
wow.
also, i work in sales and marketing for an insurance company. i have no contact with PHI… i’ve never once looked at a claim or even have access to our claims system. so i’ve never denied anyone coverage. in fact, my company denies less than 1% of all claims.
Well you would know that, because that’s what they tell the members.
Behind the scenes, however, your company is probably pushing “efficiency” or “value reimbursement” programs with physicians to encourage them not to do “less efficient” tests like, oh you know, MRIs.
Denying claims is one thing. Then there’s encouraging the docs not to do expensive (but valuable) diagnostic tests, and there’s also a pre-certification review process before the claim even goes in which potential claims are rejected on the basis of “inefficiency”.
Health Insurance companies – particularly the big ones (which you may not be a part of) are all about money. They’re a business, it’s their prerogative.
seeing as how we don’t have any contracts with doctors or anything like that (because we’re not a BUCA) we have no pull over what tests are run on a patient.
and i see the real numbers on claims, i also know what numbers we lie about (customer service numbers are usually the most cooked) since i answer the RFPs.
the company i work for was started by a nurse who saw how patients were getting screwed over. she went to business school so she could start a health insurance company where the patient didn’t get screwed. we don’t turn down claims unless there is a completely and totally valid reason… which happens less than 1%.
The Blues, United, Cigna and Anthem/Aetna are so far from being the only ones who contract with physicians.
But, fair enough. Your company sounds nice
they’re the worst though. and BUCA is a pretty common acronym that directly means those companies but encompasses all the “big guys” in the industry.
the company is a good concept but doesn’t work as well as it should because we’re run by a nurse. she’s a bright woman and i really respect her, but her business tactics aren’t as strong as if she’d been a business person who went into insurance… our clients like us and we do a good job for them and we have really good wellness programs and such. so overall it’s not too bad. the drama and gossip though, holy crap… it’s like high school.
I had Cigna when I worked for value village a few years back. Good coverage and the co pay was reasonable. Until I stopped working for value village. I then got a letter saying I could keep the insurance…. if I paid $800 a month.
Stop it. You’re making me take shortright’s side on this issue and I don’t wanna!!
but rando, you love me… you know it. when it comes to siding with me vs. a psychotic troll… you’ll side with me almost every time. even if the psychotic troll has similar political views with you.
I’d never want to side with a psychotic troll. This one made me ashamed of my own views. That’s why I hate the liberal trolls more than the conservative ones. I end up taking sides against my own beliefs. LOL
That’s what I’VE been grappling with. I’m a card carrying dirty librul, but this guy made me want to stash my card in the back of my wallet.
you know, you could give me your card. i’ll keep it right next to rando’s…
You can take my card…but you can never take my bleeding heart…because it’s really very messy…
i’ve got lots of towels i’ve stolen from hotels…
LOL, nice rhetoric.
I never mentioned bailouts. I mentioned SUBSIDIES…
So you are comparing the 1.2 trillion a year we spend on the military to Canada’s 5 billion? Whatever.
Face it, the U.S. is owned and controlled by special interest and the military industrial complex. A %400 markup on health care is meant for only one thing. POPULATION CONTROL.
Here is hoping you don’t get sick, fired from your job, dropped from your insurance then have to spend every dime you have keeping yourself alive. But hey, we have 30 billion dollar aircraft carriers. Aren’t they neat… sigh
Um, you left out AARP. Take a look, seriously. They’re about the scariest, most powerful influence on our government there is.
Second to ACORN….
Rando’s Law: In any given Internet discussion, some conservatroll is bound to say something about ACORN at some point.
And a Liberal will bring up Nazi’s and swastikas related to anyone who disagrees with them…Pelosi? …Pelosi? …Beuller?…
Yeah, but the only person to mention Nazi and swastikas is you….
And I thought the cigarette companies were the ones pushing population control.
You would be wrong.
The U.S. ranks 37th in the world on health care.
Care to guess who has the best????
That is right FRANCE.
But, we are number one in expenditure though.
GOOD LORD! the reply function is pretty fcuking easy. see in the bottom right corner of the box that blue word that says “reply”? CLICK ON IT! it’ll magically make your response go where you want it rather than randomly floating around the thread where you look like even more of an idiot.
You mean like this jackass?
yes like that. and you realize that if you wanted to call me a jackass you should have used a comma before the word “jackass”. right now you’ve managed to call yourself a jackass. and the rest of us didn’t need that clarification. it was glaringly obvious already.
You must be a Republican. I have noticed over the years CONservatives ,when faced with a valid argument, resort to insults and name calling. Mainly because their true intentions are so vile and repulsive that most sane people wouldn’t believe their ears once they heard them.
Oh, please.
bitter troll has noticed this amung scientologists too…clearly shortright is a scientologist too…
NOOOOOOOO! i don’t want to believe that aliens planted all my thoughts in my head.
Oh crap. Stop it stop it stop it!!!! We don’t need any liberal trolls making us intelligent liberals looks bad! WTF are you doing????
bitter troll can tell by your responce that your a dirty tree hugging hippie, let us all mace you and turn dogs on you then
YES! I can finally achieve every dirty librul’s dream! Being oppressed by the man! Are there any photographers around to catch it on film?
Nope I saw it and will now hold this against you forever
Where’s Comrade Maxwell?
Maxwell, add Noneya to the death panels.
And take that smartass ay dios mio in back for questioning.
i second the “add noneya to the death panels” idea.
Javohl! *pens in noneya*
By the way Ay Dios Mio… I have someone who wants to know if you’ve taken 50K volts in a localized shock epicenter….
*Tazes Ay Dios Mio and drags him/her to the “questioning closet”*
Thank you for answering that question…..
According to the World Health Organization. NINE years ago, by the way. They don’t rank the world’s health systems anymore, “because of the complexity of the task.”
I’m entirely in agreement that we put out more money per capita than other countries while not having comparable outcomes; part of this stems from the fact that the people with the large health care expenditures are not necessarily the SAME people with the negative outcomes. As the WHO recognized in discontinuing this type of ranking, statistics can produce some odd results.
What is odd about 40 million Americans with no health coverage?
Seems pretty straight forward to me.
Amazes me how people can mince words when people lives are on the line. But, hey… it is obvious that to some the only human life they care about is their own.
Sorry, aren’t YOU the one that brought up that we spend more than other developed countries with less positive outcome, in relation to your allegations regarding excessive profiteering by the insurance carriers?
You might also want to realize that “Americans with no health coverage” also ≠ “Americans who don’t have large health care expenditures”….
Is that a reply to something I posted, or merely a strawman aimed at making what I said appear different?
So not equal to Americans who don’t have large health expenditures? So your argument is they are young they can take it? So you are in favor of emergency room health coverage?
FYI – The reason “Americans with no health coverage” also ≠ “Americans who don’t have large health care expenditures”…. is because of MEDICARE. Which by the way IS a government run health coverage.
*deep breath* Ok, let’s take this one thing at a time:
Above, you were making allegations of a %400 [sic] markup by (I assume from the context) insurance companies. Subsequently, you made the statement that: The U.S. ranks 37th in the world on health care…..But, we are number one in expenditure though.
I acknowledged that the last WHO ranking did, in fact, place the USA 37th and that we do spend more per capita, and noted both that the WHO has thrown their collective hands up at ranking health care systems (which, in my opinion, draws the validity of the earlier rankings into some question) and that it’s necessary to use caution in interpreting statistics, for example, the ease of confusing correlation with causation. You responded: What is odd about 40 million Americans with no health coverage?
Seems pretty straight forward to me.
That struck me as something of a non-sequitur to what we had been discussing (expense vs. outcome) so I attempted to clarify. Unfortunately, it appears that I confused you further.
Continuing on. ..
I thought from your statement “What’s so odd about 40 million Americans without health insurance?” that you were taking the position that the reason we had high expenditures and lower positive outcomes was because of people without insurance. Perhaps that’s not what you meant? What I meant was that SOME people with insurance have large health care expenditures, SOME people without insurance have large health care expenditures, SOME people with/without insurance do NOT. Some of them because they are healthy, yes. Some of them because (whether they have insurance or not) they refuse to go to the doctor until they’re practically at death’s door (in my experience, a lot of these are guys…). And, yes, certainly some of them because they don’t have coverage and they’re responsible enough to hope to avoid incurring bills they can’t pay. (I’d agree that group needs some help).
And finally:
I’m sorry, this one just gets a “WTF?!?” from me. For one thing, it doesn’t seem to bear any possible relation to what we are talking about. For another thing, by “large health care expenditures” I’m not talking about what’s actually paid by either consumers or insurors, but what’s billed, so insurance coverage isn’t necessarily relevant to THAT issue. Finally…If you’re covered by effing Medicare, you HAVE health coverage. You have Medicare. (I suspect you might actually be thinking about Medicaid, which is the “coverage for poor people”, not Medicare, which is “coverage for old people”, but either way…)
I feel like we’re arguing in two different languages. Are you running this through Babelfish or something? *a little frustrated*
“the WHO has thrown their collective hands up at ranking health care systems (which, in my opinion, draws the validity of the earlier rankings into some question)”
Only after special interest harass and obfuscated the ACCURATE report.
“confusing correlation with causation”
Um, we going to debate what is IS?
I think until you realize that the elderly have the highest health care costs in the country, maybe anything you say might make sense. Because when you tout about most expensive health care costs, silly me, I assumed you knew what you were talking about.
Your weak argument at the apparent aggregate cost of health care means nothing when compared to the facts.
Nope. I’m saying that it’s a mistake to make the assumption that the cause of the lower outcomes is wholly the segment of the population that’s uninsured. I suspect it’s more complex than that. That’s all.
Yes. Old people tend to have higher health care costs; I’m perfectly willing to accept that as a group, those over 65 have a higher per-capita healthcare expenditure than other age groups. And? They’re also the one segment of the population that doesn’t actually have to worry about whether they have insurance, because of Medicare. I don’t quite see what you’re getting at, I’m afraid.
I suspect we’ll have to agree to — hell, I can’t even tell what we’re disagreeing about. You keep changing what point you’re trying to make.
My point is, even though you appear to know what you are talking about… you don’t.
Come on, man! Don’t argue like the cons! We need intelligence on our side, but not at the cost of you coming off like a total dick-weed. Dial it down. Be rational. Stop namecalling and being nasty! It’s the only thing that makes us better than they are!
*puts up shit-storm umbrella and waits*
It’s been like 5 hours since you posted that. I’m surprised you got away with it.
I win!
That “40 million Americans with no health coverage” is a load of crap, frankly. There aren’t anywhere near that many AMERICANS without the ability to get health coverage. The 40 million includes young people who have opted out, rich people who pay out of pocket, and illegal aliens who aren’t American. If you click on my name you’ll get an article by FactcheckDOTorg (which is a left-wing enough site to make you happy) about the breakdown in the numbers.
Any Americans without health coverage is too many. The only part I get wishy-washy on is people who don’t want health insurance. These people I call “stupid” or “freakishly rich.” Occasionally both.
What’s annoying is that even under the government public option plan there will still be several (I think the number I heard was 15) million without coverage, by design. It’s not a fix all. Not even close. And on top of that, it will strip way too many Americans of healthcare insurance that they like.
You go, Frou!!!!
I haven’t heard that. Can I get a cite? I’m too lazy to look it up.
{http://cboblog.cbo.gov/?p=293}
Word of warning: this is a blog, but it’s from the director of the CBO, which is a non-partisan group that analyzed the healthcare bill.
About two paragraphs in it talks about 15 million people losing the healthcare insurance they have now because employers will drop the current private option in favor of a cheaper public option, thereby stripping the choice of plan and doctor away from the consumer. It also states that the total number of uninsured will only decrease by around 16-17 million.
{http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/08/26/taking_liberties/entry5268079.shtml}
Here is another blog (I’m sorry guys! It’s from CBS, but the form of the article almost has to be a blog. I’m really trying to find non-partisan sources here!!!!!!) about privacy in the healthcare bill. In short, there ain’t none. The IRS is being told to divulge all kinds of things to the federal government under the guise of using that information to see if you qualify for credits, but the amount of abuse that could follow this type of divulging is extremely frightening.
I see that froo as a good point. But when you get right down to it. If you’re getting your insurance through your company, you don’t have a choice. Your company is making the choices for you on your coverage and your doctor. So basically you’re losing a choice you never had to begin with.
Right and if you have an HMO, or even a PPO, you only get certain benefits with in-network doctors and lessened benefits for out of network.
Not very free, is it. They even deny some prescription drugs, and limit the amount of care you are able to receive for certain conditions.
Which is why the republican option of opening up healthcare insurance to make it more portable, allow you to purchase it yourself, allow you to shop around for the stuff you want and not what your work wants, and allowing you to choose the amounts of coverage you want are all much better options. We don’t need to scrap what we have in favor of a brand new thing that might or might not work. Believe it or not, this is a clearcut case of overregulation in the form of state and federal mandates that insurance MUST cover certain things as opposed to allowing various types of coverage based on what the consumer wants being the things that has cripples the American people and screws them over.
That’d be all well and good froo, if the republicans would actually freaking PUSH for that when they have the votes to change it. That’s what kills me, they’ll hem and haw when the Dems try to push for health care reform, but nothing will get done when they’re in power to make it happen…. it’s the one thing I do trust the conservatives to do right, make a plan that will cost as little money as possible, with as much freedom as possible.
I absolutely, 100% agree with you, Max. The Republicans had a good start in the 90′s with the “Contract with America”, but they lost that and started acting like your run of the mill politicians who just want to stay in office (Kind of like Specter). They’re wishy washy, idiotic, and an embarrassment. I want nothing more than to yank them up and throttle the lot of them.
The only thing I can hope is that this will shake them out of being the idiotic politicians that they are and will cause them to start actually listening to their constituents. Everyone talks about how the Blue Dogs are going to bite it in 2010 because they’re stuck between a rock and a hard place as far as trying to side with their Democrat buddies but still hold true to the fiscal conservative platform they were elected on, but I think that the Republicans will face the same problems if they paint themselves into a corner. If they don’t WAKE UP they will never stay in power. They may have it for a year or two, but look at what happened to Newt’s boys, or the one time after that they held Congress. They pissed too many people off by being wishy washy, and they got voted out.
Idiots.
Like I said before the election, I loved McCain, because he was everything a liberal could vote for, in a conservative
Until he started pandering to the extremists of the party, whom he thought could get him elected, like the anti-choice crowd.
I could never vote for a pro-lifer. Ever.
Do us all a favor and avail yourself of one of those late-term abortions you hold so dear, kay?
Nayo, I’m afraid I’m on the other end of the spectrum. I could never ever vote for an openly pro-choice person. I don’t mean pro-choice in the sense that they don’t want to prevent it in extreme cases, but Obama has a track record on abortion that pisses me off every time I see it.
McCain is too wishy washy for me, Max. He personifies everything that is wrong with the Republicans, namely, he’s too willing to compromise his own principles in order to get votes. The Gang of 14 springs to mind
I’m all about working together, but you still have to have a spine when things are important to you!
“Like I said before the election, I loved McCain, because he was everything a liberal could vote for, in a conservative”
Finally a truthful admission. This is why he lost. Next conservative you see will actually BE a conservative – and if not you’ll see open revolution. Either way, fun times!
Right back atcha, Dotard.
Don’t take viagra if you take nitrates for chest pain, as this may result in an unsafe drop in blood pressure.
I find myself not wrenching out my short hairs over this because even if my taxes rise by 5% to cover this health care increase, It’ll only cost me $30 more dollars a week in taxes, as opposed to the $125 I’m paying now AFTER taxes. I can live with the $95 extra I’ll get to keep.
That’s what I’m saying.
Haha – just like when the unconstitutional “income tax” came around – they swore it would never ever ever amount to more than 1 measly percent of anyone’s income – surely no one would object!
Idiot. Absolute, utter, economic idiot.
And you berate Rando for not reading anything you post and not keeping an open mind?!
I’ve refuted–with REAL numbers–this canard that the income tax is “unconstitutional”, and you don’t pay any attention.
Nao, I think froo has some extra cookies if you want to have a real conversation over here…
What kind of preggo would I be if I didn’t have extra cookies?? *offers cookies to Nao and charro*
*decides not to mention the homemade candy she has hidden* heheheheee.
Uh, you just mentioned it. *searches froo’s fairy land for candy*
COOOKIEES!!!
:::pounces:::
(I just thought I’d share my Freudian slip [which I didn't know one could make while typing!]: I typed “pounds” instead of “pounces” . . . I’m quick on the backspace key so it was gone in a flash, but still . . . LOL ?)
Now I want pound cake.
SHUT UP! This place I used to work sold this awesome pound cake in the cafeteria. They put oranges and cranberries in it … I started eating it for breakfast (like a morning muffin, right?) and gained about 15 pounds in the first four months … I put a stop to that.
Yum.
Nom. I like my poundcake with strawberries and chocolate. Ooooh, charro have to go get poundcake now.
And your point is Diss? Those exact same figures or near enough it are still being compiled by the OECD, and still showing the same cost – standard imbalances.
Oh my God, I’ve gotta stop doing drugs. A cat is preaching to me.
no no is just a socks puppet.
someone has his hand wedged up the back end
Why stop doing drugs? Drugs are good, mmmmkay.
You guys must be those types of people who scream “I don’t want the guberment messing with my Medicare!!” That or you work for a large corporation.
Next time you want a reality check ask a small business person how much he/she pays for health insurance to cover their employees.
bitter troll runs a lemonaid and theropy stand outside local school from a old rusty black van with words free candy written on side
Oh, so your practice is modeled after the U.S. health care system? Nice…
no need for insurance, everyone gets a lollie afterwards…but you must cry….cry those sweet sweet tears
I’ll remember that the next time I see a cancer patient without health insurance. I’ll send them to ‘bitter trolls house of lollie pops’ for their half million dollar cancer treatment.
correction that be
” bitter troll’s van of childrens health and lollie pops”
I’m an accountant at a company that employs less than 100 people. Our per person rate for insurance is between $4,500 – $5,000 a year. Our coverage is amazing and we only pay $65 a month single and $195 for family out of pocket. I know we had a really good negotiator for our insurance.
On the downside, our averages for salaries are on the low side for the industry. Personally, I’m willing to take a couple thousand less per year in order to have the health insurance coverage my company offers and that seems to be the general consensus among my fellow employees.
Can I come work for your company?
OMG! Fewer than 50 is a small business.
This is what I am talking about, people are completely out to lunch.
We pay $750 a month for a family of 4 to be covered. One of the main problems in this country is that the uninformed think they are informed.
Care troll froths more than we do.
I have come to realize that some people in this country are merely callous, and couldn’t care two shits about anyone but themselves. Which explains to me why they are always the first person in line for something free, and the first to jump back in line if they can get away with it.
But that is O.K., because they will have plenty of time to think about it all while they are burning in hell.
silly woman, only the amish burn in hell.
only bitter troll knows how truely evil the amish really are…..
The love of money is the root of all evil. And those Westerners sure do LOVE their money — as evidenced by many of the replies above.
cowboy movies love money?
Notice how when CONservatives have no argument they resort to incoherent nonsense and name calling. Sure indicator they are clueless about the situation.
i know you’re new here… but bitter is an equal opportunity mocker. you say something stupid he’ll say something even stupider back at you. not liberal, not conservative.
and by trying to label everyone who doesn’t agree with you a conservative, you’re showing yourself to be a real asshole.
I know we don’t always agree about politics, but we usually agree about lots of stuff. In this case I have to disagree with you. Turning Westerners into “cowboy movies” is stupid, not mocking, and well below Bitter’s usual standard of mockery.
i agree it was below his normal level… but my main point was that anyone who dared to disagree with noneya was a “CONservative” when BT is well known to be equal opportunity… tending more towards the liberal side of things. hell, noneya called suicide_blonde and rando “CONservatives” too and that’s pretty freaking hilarious considering that they’re 2 of the most bleeding heart liberals on this page.
Ah HA! Gimme my card back!!!!
i considered giving it back after i saw that.
I wish he’d call me a conservative. I’m a, oh right. My bad.
We know, dear….
And the right-wingers are the ONLY one’s who generalize *rolls eyes*
Uh? It was a pretty evident generalization. You know, since I was talking about Westerners in general. o_o
But, let me allow you some fun. Oh, noes! You caught me! Here I was thinking Westerners are all literally identical.
This debate itself makes it clear that some people value the health of their countries’ residents as a whole above money. It also makes it clear that some people would rather play the spoiled child role and yell “no, this is MY money, all mine, you can’t make me share it!”
/shrugs
People are free to fight for whatever “rights” they want… I just think it’s mostly cultural that many of the people here love their money so much. But, I’ve seen enough children living in palm-leaf huts in developing countries to feel that a) money doesn’t buy happiness and b) health and education are about the greatest things it does buy.
Absolutely. But you see, for some in the U.S. to care about others would take them developing a conscience. Which is nearly impossible. Because at a young age it was drilled into their heads by some heartless parent till they were brainwashed, that the only person that matters is their self.
So you see, children living in grass huts amuses them and are often the target of their jokes. Which are more often than not racist and completely without decorum.
Children living in grass huts? WTF? You’re the racist. Some ethnic peoples choose to carry on their ancient ways. Who are you to insinuate that living as such is a negative thing?
” Tolerance and diversity!!!”- until it conflicts with the Liberals getting their way…
Because I do not have an owner, thus I care for myself.
Great idea! Please send $ 100.00 to my p.o. box, I need a teeth cleaning.
bitter troll clean your teeth for free…first let me get them out of your skull…hold still..
The damn care trolls on this thread are gonna make me lose my dirty librul card AGAIN. Stop it stop it stop it!!!
I hear you bro. I hate it when folks from “our side” come in being total dicks. *sigh*
Hey man usually I have to deal with conservatrolls ALL the time on here. While I see where your frustration is coming from, I must admit I chuckle a little bit. I do feel for you though.
you can’t lose it again… i never gave it back. MWA HA HA!
You keep using it for yourself, don’t you? Dirty librul in the closet, aren’tcha?
i use it to get discounts at the movie theatre… you caught me!
But you can only use it to see movies starring liberal actors and directors…so any movie really.
Minus Eastwood, and the guy from “Coach”
The real question is- what did we do RIGHT medically for the first 200 years ??? Then the government got involved……
Really? How did government involvement result in exploded health care costs?
Medicare and Medicaid- jacked up costs thru incredible paperwork and low reimbursements. Therefore those costs were passed on to the private pay sector. Both were supposed to be very small, limited programs, which then grew like a cancer….
That’s partly true. Do you want to try and explain how Medicair and Medicaid forced private insurers to introduce equally Byzantine and complex coding rules?
Perhaps you should read some PHP healthcare blog posts on coding rules? Try starting at distractible.org .
As a doctor , I’m quite familiar with the system. As soon as Medicare passes some assinine rule, within minutes, Bluecross and the others will do exactly the same if it benefits them. Perhaps you should try going to Medical School- start at your local college.
You’re a doctor? Gee, I’ve always wanted to ask. How the FU(K do you justify charging $150.00 to look at me for 3 minutes? And don’t give me that “overhead” crap! ‘Making a good living’ and ‘getting filthy rich off of folks’ is 2 different things. I don’t mind paying for your knowledge and expertise, but I resent paying for your 3rd house in the Hamptons or your month long vacation in Cancun.
I’m glad I never went to med school. I’d hate the part where they cut out your humanity gene to make more room for your greed gene.
The nurse who first takes your weight and BP, asks you why you’re here, and does some prep work for the doctor — he or she doesn’t count, right? Neither does the admin who pulls and updates your file and flags it for the doctor, I guess.
Funny how you get mad at the doctor for treating you like the “little people” but don’t notice doing it yourself.
I refer you back to the statement “And don’t give me that “overhead” crap! ‘Making a good living’ and ‘getting filthy rich off of folks’ is 2 different things.”
Your opinion of nurses and admins is so low that you don’t even consider them *overhead*? Wow.
As someone who worked for 6 months in a doctor’s office, I’m gonna have to actually agree with Dhoti over Ivan. *winces* Quality office staff does not come cheap, and I made almost as much as I do now back then just answering phones and making appointments, and this was in 2002.
Actually, Dhoti (deliberately?) misunderstood. Nurses and admin ARE “overhead”. But by charging patients $150.00 just to be looked at (never mind the costs of tests and miscellaneous charges) at the rate of about 4 per hour, and lets say he works an 8 hour day, He’s taking in $4,800 per day. That’s obscene. And that’s not counting the costs of tests and the pharmaceutical kick-backs.
I guess what pisses me off is that the last time I saw a doctor (out of pocket, of course!) I had about 3 things I needed tending. I took a day off work, thus losing money, and the prick had the audacity to be snotty that he had to check 3 things. AND he knew I was uninsured, and he still ordered tests that even HE thought were unnecessary (he said they were ‘just to be sure’).
Ivan, either you’re misunderstanding the concept of overhead, or you’re continuing to look down at nurses and admins; I’m not sure which, but I don’t really care. And $4800/day works out to about $1.2M a year, which, I’m not sure if you’re aware, but won’t keep the lights on at a lot of small businesses.
Look, I’m sorry you weren’t treated like a pretty pretty princess, but maybe you shouldn’t be basing your policy judgments on it, kay?
Now add all the testing fees. It comes to closer to 3 mil a year. Even after costs and salaries, doctors make some tidy money.
But it doesn’t surprise me that you defend the greed, Dhoti. Doesn’t surprise me at all.
Of *course*. That’s the *only* thing I could *possibly* have on my mind, right?
Whatever. It was AIG last month, health care this month, who knows what next month. You’ll have to forgive me for not caring.
Wow! I closed my practice a few years ago when I made a grand total of $35,000 the last year and realized it was only going to get worse as a family doc . So I went to the ER where at least I’ll get a paycheck. $150 for three minutes? Did they have a sign up saying ” the amount of the bill will be dependent on the customers attitude”? That might explain it.
You really should step into someone elses shoes for awhile- all the free time you have to blog on here should be spent volunteering at the health department or ER. You’ll be like all these bright eyed , idealistic young Interns and Nursing students who come in and do a 180 dergree change in their attitudes in only a few weeks.
” At what point did you become a Conservative?”. “Well, it was when the Welfare Queen called me a “racist B*tch” for not giving her a shot of Morphine for her toothache!”.
I don’t totally agree with BB and Dhoti (as we know well), but the PHP overhead is one place I do. I know a Georgia PHP who reckons his practice is spending something like $100_000 a year on insurance coders, so that’s $15 per consult on Ivan’s figures, testing fees don’t go direct into the practice profit because, guess what, the labs want paying…
Also look at all the hospitals closing throughout the country- two in our city alone in the last few years. If they’re making so much money, why are they closing?
Okay. So, to recap, the insurance companies are barely making a profit according to shortright. According to BB, the hospitals aren’t making any money. According to BB and froo, most doctors aren’t really making any money either. SO WHO IS MAKING ALL THE GODDAMN MONEY?????
*sheepishly raises his hand*
-
Sorry guys, someone had to do it..
Hmm. Well, although it’s probably not true of Shortright’s insurance company, I think executive compensation at the major insurance carriers is probably amounts that would be staggering to normal people, plus they expect a certain amount of perks (first-class travel, etc) and that comes out of the gross before you declare profit/loss.
While there’s probably plenty of good doctors in BB’s position, (anecdotal) the two cardiologists’ homes I’ve seen in town would make a third-world dictator jealous, so ….there’s money there somewhere.
Beyond that, I don’t know!
Sales reps.
That’s “who is making all the goddamn money”.
Sales reps for the medical equipment and test and pharmaceutical companies.
No shit. I’ve seen their suits and their houses.
Bee-jeezus.
OK, the bit about the sales reps was supposed to come with its own brackets and a “half-joking funneh” label attached to it.
I must’ve messed it up.
Stock holders, and top-level executives with their bonuses. And the hospital execs. Plus the lobbying firms to press for more beneficial bills, please? *sigh*
So, to recap again, executives are making money hand over fist at EVERYONE’S expense pretty much across the board. SOME doctors make insane amounts of money, but not all. Which I believe because every “physician’s parking lot” I’ve ever seen has been filled with BMWs, Lexuseseses, and Mercedes. And yes, I am shallow enough to judge people by the car they drive. So the industry doesn’t profit all that much. Just the people in charge of it. And why aren’t we going after them for fvcking over an entire nation’s health care?
Oh, don’t be naive, Rando! Those don’t belong to the doctors. They belong to the illegal immigrants on welfare visiting the doctor on your tax dollars. They don’t give a damn where they’re supposed to park, either!
Yes. That was sarcasm.
Well, apparently you can buy BMW’s with EBT cards these days. Not Mercedes though. Not sure why.
The German Teamsters won’t let those go to just anyone.
Wait, who said hospitals are “making so much money”? They continually lose money to the impoverished of the country, keep hiking the costs of their services to cover it, & in turn, the government AND the insurance companies refuse to cover the full charge (good ole “reasonable and customary” comes back to bite us all in the ASS), so they lose money. That’s why they’re closing.
I want to mention something that I think is B.S., which occurred to me because of Igor’s posting, “justify charging $150.00 to look at me for 3 minutes?”. My fiance was in the ER for prob. 30 minutes recently. They shipped him out in an ambulance (to a hospital 90 miles away) when they realized they didn’t have the facilities to treat him there–which they didn’t; we live in a small community with a small hospital (I wouldn’t have let them treat him with his injuries, anyway–but that’s a tangent I won’t go down right now)–the TWO doctors that took a look at his injuries and said, “Yep, we won’t touch that!” each billed us, one of them for over $200! Pray, tell, why does he get to have $200 for looking at the wounds and doing nothing but saying, “I can’t handle this”?!
Just off the top of my head:
ER visit, only (no doctors charges): over $1200
Ambulance ride to large hospital: $600
3 days in large hospital (I think including a stitching up his hand and another “surgery” to remove embedded “shrapnel” from his body: over $19,000
Not including follow-up visits.
::SIGH::
Good grief. Yeah, I think looking at a patient and determining that it’s beyond your capabilities probably shouldn’t be billable.
Oh, and I hope he’s ok, that sounds awful!
Thank you very much for your concern; he is MUCH better. Mostly healed.
I don’t think we should have to pay it. I’m going to try to fight it, but I’ve never had a lot of luck in that sort of area.
Wow, $200 for 10 seconds might be a new record in medical douchebaggery. Although I doubt it.
Ya, he’s a general surgeon who was working the ER that day (which I thought was odd; I’ve never seen him work the ER before), but I didn’t think he made THAT much. I know him, somewhat; I generally think of him as a pretty decent guy, but–dang, “medical douchebaggery” is a good term for it.
I know GPs don’t make a helluva lot; my fiance & I together typically make more than most of them in this area . . . some specialties, however, really rake it in. Cardiologists, oncologists … Here’s an example of ridiculous overcharging (IMNSHO): abt. 11 years ago, I worked at a clinic where a monthly visiting specialist would see patients to the tune of $480 for a 20, maybe 30-minute chat. Endocrinologist. Sheesh.
We’ve got one doc in particular who is rich beyond all explanation (excepting the fact that he charges ridiculous amounts and gets away with it. The HMO I used to have wouldn’t even cover visits to him, but he still gets plenty of business–I don’t know how he does it). A gastroenterologist who collects exotic cars (and I mean COLLECTS with a capital “C”)–this is in a small, near-rural area.
It definitely sounds like specialists are where the money is at.
*stands up and claps*
*bows and grins cheekily*
and gets ready for his shift at Taco Bell where he’ll whine to everyone that other people should “give him stuff”- like those ebil, ebil people who actually worked hard to get where they are….
Wow, Ivan didn’t say any of that at all. I can’t believe you would stoop so low, BB.
Up all night- makes me rough. I’m just wondering how many people want National Health care so they can get their penile enlargement surgery for free…..
Which is putting it mildly. Ivan has given enough details of his personal life to make it obvious that what you’re suggesting is way the hell off.
>”. . . so they can get their penile enlargement surgery for free…..”
>>> “Which is putting it mildly. Ivan has given enough details of his personal life to make it obvious that what you’re suggesting is way the hell off.”
!!
You’re saying, Rando, that Ivan has a big schlong, is that right?
Well Naoy, on my Youtube channel, I put the same kinds of surveillance that I do on Rando/Eric on Ivan.
Since Eric, Charro, and I are the only three subscribers on the youtubes, we would know.
I probably should have clarified that I was joking.
-Goes off somewhere to bunker down and vomit-
But, but….
I thought Ivan and Igor were–uh . . . similar.
Reeeaaal similar, if you get my drift.
Hrm?
No, I’m not a sock.
It’s Tyler, remember? I used to lurk on graphjam arguing against the crazy?
I changed my name.
There were too many Tylers going around preaching the Bible ’round here.
That’s why everyone calls me Tygor- Tyler, Igor, and TROGDOR.
Or Iggler.
But that one is pretty rare.
Tygor! I know who ya are, silly.
I just thought you might’ve switched names, just fer fun, as I’ve seen several do around here–but not as a deliberate sock puppet!
It’s just the the name was similar, and the icon looks like yours, yet altered.
::izconfoozled::
Thanks for the defense gang. And no, I am not Tylers sock. He’s 16. I’m 45.
@Naoyusimi–Oh God, I just realized how bad that looks. I mean that BB being “rough” was putting it mildly. OMG.
Tygor–We don’t call you “Iggler” that much because it sounds like something you’d nickname your johnson.
Nah, you just don’t want to ::ahem:: stro o o ke his ego. It makes you think of Dirk Diggler, doesn’t it?
It didn’t, but now that you mention it…
Screw you guys. Those were the last Ramen noodles!
Why did you make me laugh them out of my mouth?
I know I could use a free penile enlargement.
-Snorts at the fact that Dirk Diggler has Iggler and Dirk in his name, because Dirk is a word for a tiny dagger/sword, and one thing the sword represents is the penis, leading back inevitably to Eric’s penis comment-
Yeah, that much I can see. I’ll concede the point.
LOL, this problem has been around for the last hundred years. Because tools keep blocking any real reform.
nothing keeps people from getting healthcare in the us. it’s the paying out the arse that’s the trouble :/ i hate paying some CEO 700mil.
It’s the paying out the ass that keeps people from getting health care in the US.
That is actually not true. Even if a person was willing and able to pay out the arse for insurance, it doesn’t mean the insurance company would view them as a good risk.
ok so you are implying that we are owned by the government? fantastic. idiot.
You don’t want to pay for someone else’s health care, you’re happy with yours. But are you aware that taxpayers cover the uncovered in very crowded emergency rooms? So do you see that we’re paying already? I’m not asking if you like that, just if you know it.
OK now, are you willing to say that you think we should STOP requiring emergency rooms to care for everyone? Because then you would make sense. And then we’d all be able to recognize you. Sociopath.
By the way, there are a few budget items I would love to cut, like subsidies for corn syrup manufacturers, bailouts for bankers, inadequate partial walls on the Mexico border…
Why should emergency rooms have to treat people who don’t have an emergency? They should triage then and if it isn’t emergent, send them on their way.
Who pays for it? The pet owner… or do you want to tax me to pay for your pet care, too?
Yes, I do. Pay up, muthafukka.
Wow. I guess hoping for another funny one the day after a funny one was shooting WAY too high, wasn’t it. Send in the fail boat for this stupid “lol”.
By the way, parents are already required to get their children healthcare as necessary. FREE PEOPLE ARE NOT PETS OR CHILDREN. Jesus H. Tapdancing…
You’re only required to get healthcare insurance for your child if the courts mandate it, as in the case of a divorce. Otherwise, you don’t have to.
Cite where I said ANYTHING about insurance? I said health care, not insurance. Do you actually argue that you are not required to get your child health care as needed? LOL (The bizarre lengths you’ll go to to disagree with me – it’s so dumb.)
anniee your pointing out the cat in the box is wrong…its a cat..it licks its own butt..
Actually, I think it’s on a state by state level as far as forcing parents to get healthcare for their children, if it’s mandated at all. I’m not aware that the Jehovah’s Witnesses get in trouble for not taking their kids to the doctor, not to mention the other odd little cults around that don’t believe in Western or organized medicine.
It’s not a disagreement with you, Anniee. I’m disagreeing with the premise that I will get in trouble if I don’t take my child to the doctor.
Give it a try and let us all know what happens. Some Christian scientists are facing jail right now for letting their daughter die of a diabetic coma. But go ahead – and don’t forget to report back LOL
christain scientists? thats like a oxymoron right?
Like I said, I believe it’s on a state-by-state basis. And I believe my state has the term “reasonable person”, as in “would a reasonable person realize that this would lead to serious illness or death”.
Ugh.
I’m biased, admittedly, but I can’t stand the idea of Christian Science. It just seems incredibly obnoxious to force your child to live without actually trying to help themselves when they’re ill just because of their belief.
Of course, I’ve been brainwashed by my mum against them, I’m well aware. Her mother was a Christian Scientist, and she has a lot of damage to her body just from living under her parents’ rules for 18 years.
Wait–you don’t think they should be in jail? The idiots knelt there and prayed and WATCHED her DIE. What a way for that poor little girl to go!
If there IS a God, (s)he’d be disgusted by those BUTT-holes. I imagine s(he)’d be shaking her head, “I gave you a BRAIN, and free will; I expected you to USE it!”
not getting the proper healthcare to save a kids life seems like it ought to be regarded the same as abortions in the eyes of these people who are so anti-abortion. i mean, one way you’re killing a kid, the other way, you’re letting a kid die. then again, aren’t these the same people that say anti-abortion is the same as pro-life (which… no, not really) but then are pro-gun and pro-war..
i really don’t understand this, killing is ok, no wait.. its bad.. no but it’s good if it’s with a gun, oh wait, only killing foreigners and letting children die (as long as you don’t stab them or something).. that’s ok. am i getting this straight?
Actively killing vs. allowing nature (or God, what have you) to take its course is seen differently based on your particular flavor of religion. Or kookness.
Where can I get some free people? I’ve got some housework that needs to be done.
You wouldn’t understand the concept of a people who possess liberty, unfortunately, being a nanny statist yourself. But here’s a video that explains it so that even a child can understand it (or a liberal – same thing) Link
rawr hiss hiss rawr -waves claws in the air- hiss
Nah, I’m not even responding to froohoo after the last post. Not even worth the time.
damn, anniee, going at this rate you’re going to “ignore” just about everyone here in about 2 more weeks. why even bother, eh?
We keep waiting for that to happen, but alas, like a bad rash, she keeps coming back.
And she keeps coming back after slamming everyone on how stupid they are, how unfunny the site is, and how big a waste of time it is. Which, to me, all seem to be good enough reasons to not visit anymore, but what do I know?
Everyone needs a release sometimes. I’d be a hypocrite for faulting her for that. LOL
Yeah, but you don’t claim to be “Done” with everything and everyone on here after getting into a frothy name calling episode with anyone who might have a point that slightly differs from your own…
Anniee does this all the freakin time.
Wait, what? Is there an “ignore” button on here?
There’s a royal buttload of scripts I’m blocking . . . if there is such a button, must be one o’ them.
That didn’t explain at all where I can get a free person. You’re a liar Anniee.
I think you can buy them in bulk at Costco.
Can I get them on Craigslist?
Yes, but they’re used. Sometimes they aren’t quality. You really have to watch those sell by owner deals….
I’ll just put a warranty on it.
ebay? we can still sell babies on ebay right?
If you’re buying them, then they aren’t exactly free, are they?
free for me, im stealing them from cribs at night!
Oh damnit there’s no free people on craigslist either? What a gyp.
There are, but they usually break as soon as you take them home. And they’re so expensive to fix, what with insurance costs being what they are. With socialized medicine you could get your free people fixed right up anytime.
You have to make sure that your free people weren’t in a previous car accident either. That will ruin them for life.
Just show me the peoplefax.
Or if they’re diabetic.
The people racks?
…okay, show me their racks too.
People maps?
I don’t need a map to find their racks. I know where those are.
And you’re just a fool who doesn’t care a whit about being free – only about being taken care of by a nanny state to rule over all. Worthless parasite.
*looks very closely at charro* Hmmmmm, I see no evidence of tapeworms here……..odd…….
That’s because the tapeworm moved out and now lives on welfare and drives a Cadillac. While selling drugs. He still calls though. Wants to sell me something called “crank”. I don’t get it, that was such a bad movie.
Oink oink.
Suck suck.
There’s a new book out called “The Last Centurion” you really need to read Annie. It explains the whole ” ant vs grasshopper” problem very well.
merrrooooowww hiss hiss hiss
*hacks up hairball*
*bats hairball to BT*
-uses his bitter wiffle bat to volley it towards froofrou- RAMOOORWW
I’m a certain kind of fool who likes to hear the sound of his own name.
I was led to believe you were Eric in STL. If I was mistaken, please do tell me because it was my intent to share those links with him, who has the ability to appreciate them.
There is no Eric. Only Rando. And I’ve never gone for blog posts, Anniee, no matter who they’re from. Like I said above, the one has a very good mindset on breastfeeding babies, I’ll say that much. That’s about all I took from it.
rando is fun to say, that’s true
I’ve noticed the especially frothy throw the word “liberty” around a lot. I think the word may be slightly abused by now.
I’ve noticed the worthless nanny statists who loathe liberty and would deny it to their fellow men (for security or what -have- you) throw the word “froth” around a lot.
now now, lets be nice to anniee, atleast she is not a
MURDERER!!!!!!!
your not right?
That tree had it coming.
it was a drug useing criminal tree!!!
and
A MURDERER!!!!!!
I’ve noticed when Anniee talks all you can hear is oink oink.
Define liberty for me, and tell me why I hate it so much.
As for the froth, I calls ‘em like I sees ‘em.
bitter troll loves liberty!
wants freedom to see a doctor and know he is not going to the bitter poor house
Who is this Liberty chick, and will she come clean my house? Does she have big boobs?
She’s been breastfeeding, so yes.
WOOHOO!!
i’m curious, anniee, you do realise that you complain about a large government, but now against statists, who i was lead to believe are proponents of more state-level control than federal… am i misunderstanding something here?
and, not to be pessimistic, but first: despite all our freedom and liberty we are still controlled and governed, which means that we’re not “free”, we’re more… free-ish, or in a state of limited freedom.
when you start throwing around stuff like “worthless nanny statists who loathe liberty ” you epitomize the type of negative and decisive campaigning that the republican party has fallen in love with and that, in part, caused the loss of their control of this nation. all the americans in america are american, not “wrong” americans, or “real” americans (that was actually said, here in Virginia, a republican candidate called for the “real” virginians to come out and support her). you’re doing nothing to support your cause unless your cause is to come across as a troll.
so there.
Uh, yeah…there’s a difference between “a state” and “the state”, particularly in this context, none of which anyone else seems to have found all that perplexing.
So, in other words, when you’re confronted with an opinion you don’t like, you fall back on your own hackneyed stereotypes, but somehow it’s *everyone else’s* fault. Neat logical trick, that.
/facepalm
you again, huh? I simply asked, “am i misunderstanding something here?” in regards to her use of the term statist. How that fits in the with “So, in other words, when you’re confronted with an opinion you don’t like, you fall back on your own hackneyed stereotypes, but somehow it’s *everyone else’s* fault. Neat logical trick, that.” is beffudling. Although it’s your typical modus operandi – try a tangent to run a different course in the argument, bleh, same old. Welcome back btw, it was getting too cumfy here without another negative troll.
You can be real dick sometimes, Dhoti. *kiss kiss*
I respond to exactly what you said, but somehow that’s a tangent. Are you rhetorically challenged, borderline illiterate, or just slightly retarded?
Let me break it down for you: my first paragraph addressed your confusion between U.S. states and statism, while my second paragraph addressed your “when you start throwing around stuff like…” point. (See how I didn’t quote the entire thing there for no good reason?)
Spare me the quote-laden reply — read what I said, comprehend it (ask a grown-up if you have to), then, and only then, consider responding.
Someone needs a nap.
Yes I do.
Oh, wait, were you talking to Dhoti?
I was talking about me, but I suppose we could all use one. Like I’ve said in LOL form, Naptime–Every job should have it.
…and right on cue, enter the creepy stalker. Ick.
Heh heh, you got me! BTW, your milk is expired. And you shouldn’t leave so many lights on in your place.
Now that’s just downright funny. lol
To be honest, it would be helpful if Anniee would use hyphens in her use of “nanny-state”, but almost no one uses them properly anymore.
I’m just saying that punctuation helps clarity; I’m not just wearing my usual English Teacher Persona.
I started a post to you the other day (third time I’m trying to post this – if it doesn’t go through I’m finished) when I realized who you were about profits and medicine. It ended up turning into a whole blog post but the relevant bit is still in there so I hope you read it. If it’s not too much trouble I hope you’ll read the other one I’m linking as well. {http://biglibertyblog.com/2009/09/01/these-are-not-the-droids/} {http://biglibertyblog.com/2009/04/11/of-breasts-and-money/}
Children are not genuinely free because they must be cared for and thus can not make most of their own decisions. A free people as outlined in the constitution are obviously adults and capable of the responsibilities (do not harm/encroach upon others or their property, keep all your agreements) a people who wish to be free must keep. It’s all in the video I linked Nanny Charro to.
I was kidding around, you know. I don’t like reading blogs that are posted, but I went ahead and sorta read the second one because it said “breasts” in the title. The author has a very good handle on breastfeeding, I’ll say that much though. (No I’m not some sicko with a lactation fetish, my wife is a breastfeeding activist.)
Mmmmm lactation. Just make sure she lactates in a perfectly natural capitalist manner that is out for herself and no one else!
The poor baby has to run a tab at the ol’ milk jugs there. Sad, really.
Just go back in time. Say……1840′s. You can have all the free people you want. I wouldn’t do it though.
Blaspheming again?
Let’s nationalize healthcare, what what? Then what’s the incentive for me to put myself further into debt to become a doctor? C’mon now. Do any of you know how much medical school actually costs? Why the hell would I want to go hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt just to end up entering a profession in which I would be a government employee paid at a wage set not by demand but by an elected official?
I wouldn’t. And the truly intelligent, dedicated and motivated students out there wouldn’t, either. Think about it.
We have. At length. All over this LOL and several others just like it.
Can we talk about cake now?
I like cake. But I can afford more of it for me and to share with others via my taxes if I have a financial incentive to pay off my massive debts and become a doctor.
See? Cake IS a lie under this plan
The cake is the truth!!!
Uh. Hmm.
They offer cake, but give Liver. Yucky, yucky Liver.
More lulz! I like it
Well, since it’s all about the money, I would suggest you become a corporate CEO or other bigwig – they make WAY more than doctors. Or maybe Harvard law? They do pretty well, I hear. Or become a vet – my sister makes good money, even though she just HATES animals. In fact, my niece (that would be my sister’s daughter) is going to UC Davis this year with the ultimate goal of becoming a vet (she hates them aminals too).
That’s dismissive and trite, and you know it. Rise above.
Not at all – I’m completely serious. I certainly chose my profession in part because I felt I could make a living doing it AND I enjoyed it – otherwise I would’ve majored in music (I still wish I had sometimes, but I like to eat as much as the next person). Your initial post was all about money, as I read it. Is the only reason you want to be a doctor because you want a big paycheck? Let me quote some phrases from your posts: “medical school actually costs” “further into debt” “hundreds of thousands of dollars into debt” “paid at a wage set” “can afford more of it” “financial incentive”
Are you saying that to be a good, caring doctor one needs – is completely and utterly obliged, even – to incur massive debt? There’s no more economical option? That’s how it reads to me – apologies if you’re offended, but you might want to re-read what you’ve written, and see if there’s even any small grain of truth in my comments. I don’t mean this as a personal attack in any way, I’m just showing you how I see it (and I could certainly be wrong – I admit that).
I’ll assume you’re joking regarding debt incurrance = good caring doctor and my motives for considering medical school. If you’re really that out of touch with reality there’s no point in my discussing this situation with you further.
As W.C. Fields once said- ” Don’t waste your time trying to teach a pig to sing- it only wastes your time and it annoys the pig”. Pretty much sums up some of the conversations here.
Yes, it does. Now, you need to practice those high notes again if you’re going to win American Idol.
” Take…on…meeee!!! Take…me…up…..!!!!!!!!!”
YOU’RE GOING TO HOLLYWOOD, DAWG!!
Ok, you’re right, I’m ignorant – what is the cheapest MD program in the country (graduate degree only, since you need a bachelor’s for any gig these days)?
Also, have you looked at any other countries with nationalized health care? Do you believe there are no private doctors left there? That they all wear the same uniform and march in lock-step?
I’m here to point out that there are other countries with nationalized health care who do have private practice, but relatively few health care professionals work there full time (and many not at all) because they see treating the “common herd” rather than the “rich few” as the right thing to do.
Well… We have private practices, but they are connected to the national health insurance, so they can work at private clinics, and “care for the herd” at the same time.
…and of course there are no fees to study here – even though spending the 5 years in med school will most likely set you back a bit with student loans for everyday survival. Unless you can do med school and work full time, etc.
You mean like how 36 other nations manage to operate better healthcare systems with no doctors because no-one wants to be a doctor “at a wage set by an elected official”?
Your argument looks good, right up until it encounters a fact.
If my experiences at the DMV are any indication, I’ll take a big ol’ pass on having a bureaucrat treating me and mine, thanks all the same.
What a lame argument. Hospitals are not run by DMV workers.
Now THAT was funny. There’s still hope for you!
Yes. We may yet be able to train this one in the jedi ways…
Dammit, Yoda, they’re NOT to old to begin the training, STFU!!
Try paying DMV workers nurse’s wages, and watch the difference that makes to their attitudes and motivation. Maybe even try, you know, being nice to them? I’m always polite to people I want to do something for me, and usually get good service.
Now that I think about it, I haven’t had a bad experience at my local DMV in years. The last time I went they were extremely helpful and pleasant. Not all are like that, I guess, but I’ve been to hospitals run like a bad DMV too.
Mostly those that are state or federally run (i.e. VA Hospitals).
Oh there are a couple really awful hospitals in St. Louis. Like the one where someone died in the ER waiting room. That one and a couple of others you couldn’t pay me to go to. I’d rather take my chances that I would heal spontaneously.
The hospital here is about like that … I repeat: I would NOT have let their ER treat my fiance’s injuries had they even hinted that they were able. Stabilize? Sure. But hand surgery? NOT ON YOUR LIFE.
Besides, everyone knows that most of the people that work at the DMV are just frustrated doctor wannabe’s.. What you sense while waiting in line is what they think goes on behind the scenes at a doctor’s office (i.e. chatting, filing, and making a fresh pot.)
It’s already that way. All you have to do is pay for it. What’s the big deal?
I would like to point something out.
Most of the CONservatives scream about freedom of choice, yet they work for huge corporations and give up their freedoms willingly.
They whine about the ability to chose, yet they want to perpetuate the same insurance based monopoly solution in place right now.
They offer no solutions other than ‘pay or die’, and want to come along and kill reform with lies.
Hopefully sooner rather than later everyone will realize these “people” are not looking out for your best interests. They are only concerned with their own. Their god is money, and they act accordingly.
A bit frothy, but there might be a grain of truth to it.
Noneya, I would argue that their god is power. Money is a tool to get you to power. I think some could really care less about what else money can get you – they want power.
Which makes me think of Aladdin: “Phenominal cosmic powers! Itty-bitty living space.”
Seriously, the people you describe just want to be able to dictate how you and I should live. POWER!!
The best health care system I’ve ever used is the French one. For 21% of my gross salary (on top of the 38% tax bracket), my wife and I got F-R-E-E healthcare from conception to grave. I had to pay about $20 copay to see the doctor (whichever one I wanted, when I wanted), but that was repaid by the gap insurance that is included in the 21%. At this point, when COBRA runs out at the end of the month, it will be cheaper for us to fly to France once a quarter, see the doctor who was our GP there (so it’s a legit medical treatment – I’ll see my doctor more often than most of you will, he’s just out of state), pick up three months’ worth of meds, paying cash, no ripping off the French taxpayer, enjoy the weekend in Paris, and fly home, than it will be to pay cash for meds here.
In what universe is 21% of *gross* possibly a good deal? Americans are unhappy paying an average of 5.7% of *net*.
Sounds good to me. I pay 33% of gross to insurance right now.
…
My income tax is at around 32% …
How many dependents?
3
I pay about 10% for just me, so 33% for a family of four isn’t that far out of whack. Of course if the coverage it provides isn’t that great, then 33% is kinda sucky.
That’s the bad side to tax-preferenced employer healthcare policies though. Your rate is based on the worst risk in the company, not your level of risk or the worst risk in your family.
Get what your employer was paying for your insurance added to your pay, get the write-off for the full cost of their own health insurance policy like the employer had, have your rate is based on you/your family, and you’re not trapped at a job to avoid switching insurance. That’s reform we would all benefit from.
Right now, employers get to write off 100% of premiums, while as a self-employed person I only get to write off 50% of my health insurance premiums, and if I worked as an employee, I couldn’t write off any of the premiums.
That’s the basic idea behind the HSA plan, right? (Plus reform to make sure we don’t all get screwed on the individual market, of course.)
33% is way out of whack when the other 67% isn’t enough to live off of.
(I just ended a sentence with TWO prepositions! Yay me!)
No desire to do the Suzie Orman thing tonight, so let’s leave the (67%) budget topic there.
But just to get some perspective on affordable, if we can agree that 33% of gross (plus any employer contribution) is too much for what you’ve described as “copper plated” coverage for a family of four, would you consider 25% for “bronze plated” coverage tolerable? If not, how much?
Going back to finish the thought about cost vs. benefit of various purchase options, i.e. employer policy vs. individual policy, from personal experience, one can get better coverage for less money going the individual route than going the employer route.
A few years back when I was running a small company, we got to a point where we could make a contribution to the employees’ health insurance, so we looked at all the options. At that point, Blue Cross was the best vendor, but there were multiple ways to buy it.
Our contribution was a fixed amount ($200/month in today’s $) regardless, so the bookkeeper wanted to find the best deal for her and the other employees. As mentioned previously, the employer plan cost is based on the worst risk in the company, a 48 year-old smoker with high blood pressure in our case. When pressed, the BC rep suggested a unique option.
Rather than one company policy, the rep offered to set up individual/family policies for each employee, and bill the premiums to each employee through payroll deduction. The employee got our $200/month as a raise, and their policy cost was paid through payroll deduction.
Even with the difference created by the tax preference, our worst case guy got a better policy for about 75% of what it would have cost if we had gone the lower (but similar) benefit employer policy route. For the best case guy, 25 year-old non-smoker, his policy was about 50% of the cost of the lower benefit employer policy.
If the employee left the company, the policy was theirs to take with them wherever they went, with no COBRA price hosing between jobs and no worry of pre-existing exclusions as they moved from one employer to another.
So if whatever % you thought was tolerable for a “bronze plated” policy above, how’d you like to get “silver plated” coverage for the same % of gross?
I’d be okay with 20%, but I’d also like to see my employer kick in a bit more as well. That’s just a figure off the top of my head without any actual research.
Affordable is a subjective concept, so top-of-head estimates are a good as anybody can get.
Not that it’s an option for you right now, but hypothetically why not just get 100% of your benefits cost in tax-free cash from your employer, so you can get better individual coverage for less money, or choose to go with more dental coverage and less medical, or more prescription and less dental, and so on.
Exactly how much that benefit cash amounts to is still a matter of negotiation between you and your current/future employer, but at least your not stuck with crappy overpriced one-size-fits-all coverage.
*blinks*
*blinks again*
This is why my wife handles all our insurance shit. You lost me early on.
Easy enough.
Let’s say your employer is kicking in $100/month toward your insurance and other benefits right now.
You start getting that $100/month in your paycheck, tax-free as long as it’s spent on benefit type items (health insurance, dental insurance, IRA/401K, 529 college savings for your kids, etc). You pick whatever makes the most sense for you and your family at any point in time. That’s pretty much it.
For some examples:
If health insurance is your main concern, you’ll get better individual coverage for your 33% of gross plus the $100 than you were getting from your employer’s policy.
If Mrs Rando gets elected to the U.S. Senate, she gets “platinum plated” health coverage for your family, so you shift that $100/month benefit cash from your employer away from health insurance and over to a 529 college plan for your kids.
When your current employer opens more locations and starts being generous to keep you there, you opt for more tax-free benefit cash than taxable salary, unless Mrs. Rando won that Senate race, then you go for more income and less benefits.
Same goes for negotiating your salary in a new job as a widget designer. Mrs. Rando’s Senate career has your healthcare covered, her book deal has your budget covered, the Rando kids are done with college, so instead of mostly taxable income in your salary, you opt for mostly tax-free benefit cash to dump into your retirement account.
Oh, okay. I see what you’re saying. Instead of my employer paying into crappy health coverage, my employer pays that money to me so I can find better coverage on my own. It was late last night and my brain wasn’t functioning.
Getting individual coverage is very difficult in today’s market. You have to qualify medically to be eligible. It’s also significantly more expensive than group insurance, so the employer contribution would likely not cover the premiums.
Hypothetical situation Dhoti – let’s clone you, so D1 and D2 are clearly equal health risks. You, D1, make 20 net, and pay 1 for health insurance. D2 as an equal risk shol also pay 1 for HI, but can only get a minimum wage job so only nets 5. Point taken?
D2 probably shouldn’t try starting a family or renting his own place just yet.
There’s an eerily familiar ring to your point. Are you suggesting D2 should have services provided to him based not on the cost of those services, but on his ability to pay for them?
BTW, Dhoti, congrats on becoming a twin.
“D2 probably shouldn’t try starting a family or renting his own place just yet.”
Regardless of how smart D2 is, he does have the freedom to start a family whenever he pleases. And where is D2 living if not renting his own place?
And one Dhoti is more than enough. He doesn’t need a clone. O_O
Freedom to do something doesn’t necessarily mean one should do it or that it’s good judgment to do it.
When I haven’t been able to afford rent, I’ve lived with family and friends and did my part (cooking, etc). I didn’t learn my chef skills working for BT in the PK, ya know.
Don’t blame me on the cloning, that was paws4. I told everybody that cats were evil.
I agree. Being dirt poor and starting a family is usually pretty stupid. But ultimately, it is their right to do so. Who are we to judge?
Perhaps D2 isn’t very popular and doesn’t have friends (since it’s a clone of Dhoti, I don’t think that’s a stretch). For a lot of people, living with family & friends might not be feasible. It could possibly be awkward. So D2 has got to make the best of it with his minimum wage job. Which sucks for him.
I have no idea what my point is right now. It’s late and I’m tired and losing my train of thought.
Wait, what?
D2 should be the one to judge for himself before making the decision to start a family. That’s what separates him from our friend Socks the Cat at the lectern up there on the top of the page.
Have a good holiday weekend, and beware of the evil cats.
I have 3 of them. Pray for me.
Two things:
1. My pet’s healthcare isn’t free. I pay for it. I guess I’ll be paying for yours now too.
2. When my pet’s vet bill gets to high, I get to choose to put him to sleep. I guess I’ll be doing that for you now, too.
Some of you need to educate yourselves.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/03/opinion/03kristof.html?_r=1&ref=opinion
Put yourself to sleep.
Obama’s Health Care plan summed up in 2 sentences. Good job!
“Legalize it!”-Peter Tosh circa 1975
Veterinary care is exactly what we’ll get. All health decisions made for us and euthanasia when it gets too expensive.
No thanks.
Exactly! That’s how it works in every country that has national health insurance! (That’s why you rarely see people above 65 in any of them.)
Don’t joke with the troll, Danbala. They’re too stupid to understand it.
No Itall, what Danbala is saying is that most ALL of those countries have higher life expectancies than the U.S.
I wasn’t actually expecting troll to understand, I was more typing that post because the option was headkeyboarding and that’s just not healthy.
BUT if you hurt yourself you can go to the doctor without worrying about cost!
Well, it’s a $12 fee, or a bit more at the ER, I think, so I may as well save it and spend it on something useful, like cigarettes or beer…
You say that until an “R” gets stuck in your forehead. Then $12 seems like a bargain.
You’re sitting too close to the keyboard if you land on the “R” key, scoot back a bit, targeting the “F” or “V” keys is better ergonomically.
The way my desk is, I’d hit desk every time. I think it’s designed to prevent *headkeyboard* from happening. Very innovative design.
As I stated in a later poste, the funny thing about the statement that other countries have a higher life expectancy is that the lie is in the numbers. The facts are that the US drives more than any other country. So, it’s just natural that we have more automobile fatalities. Furthermore, we have a higher homicide rate. If you take out these fatalities and focus on the things that health care can actually affect, you will see that the US is number one in life expectancy.
We’ve all moved on, dude. Quit living in the past.
Sorry for the late reply, I wanted to check the facts. The funny thing about this statement is that the lie is in the numbers. The FACTS are that the US drives more than any other country. So, it’s just natural that we have more automobile fatalities. Furthermore, we have a higher homicide rate. If you take out these fatalities and focus on the things that health care can actually affect, you will see that the US is number one in life expectancy.
Cite it or it didn’t happen.
http://www.theunitedfreestatesofamerica.com/?tag=life-expectancy
You will still not believe it ever happened. It’s amazing how you free thinking “progressives” are so closed minded.
Saying it twice doesn’t make it any more proven.
Oh and I think you’ll find that better post-stabilisation treatment (like actually getting some) improves outcomes for trauma from auto shunts and attempted homicides, just like it does for everything else.
You’re right, but it doesn’t make it wrong either. Now, I’ve cited it. Show me the proof where it’s wrong.
That’s not the debate here. The debate is over life expectancy. If we have twice the amount of car accidents, there’s still going to be more deaths. Which, in turn, will bring down our life expectancy. But, that doesn’t have anything at all to do with health care. And, that’s just one of the factors.
No you haven’t. Citing something means producing a quote from an authoratitive source, or a weblink to it.
I don’t need to cite a specific source because pretty much any responsible medical practicioner will act as a source for a claim that post-stabilisation treatment improves trauma outcomes.
You haven’t “cited” anything that I can see.
I don’t know who brought up life expectancy, but oftentimes the 2 statistics used to evaluate a country’s overall healthcare and culture are: 1) infant mortality; and, 2) maternal mortality.
These have been used for many years …. I first encountered them in a college sociology class more than 20 years ago. They are very good measures of how a culture takes care of its most vulnerable.
Access to healthcare by ALL, including the most vulnerable–young, powerless, poor–is a measure of how well that country’s system is working. Period. There is no equivocation. You can’t wiggle out of that one. It is fact.
[Keep forgetting to wipe old links out of my name. Sorry.]
You can equivocate all you want to about life expectancy: there are other factors involved, including crime, cars, genetics, etc. The simple fact is that other countries have other factors involved, too. It’s a part of the picture viewed from far away, but it’s still one part of the picture that must be viewed. The fact that it’s like viewing the U.S. from a telescope on the moon doesn’t change the fact that the other countries, large and small and poor and rich, are ALL VIEWED with the SAME SCOPE.
Oh, and I meant to say with the above: it’s not so much about who has more cars or less money, but how and to whom that money and resources are applied.
God, I hope so. Then maybe idiots like you will be put down.
Ok so if you own something you take care of it. But i dont see a long line of people ready to submit to be owned by another.
The other being the Government. If you want to get specific, Obama. Power hungry freak
You are not worthy of such an awesome avatar. I demand you put something stupid in its place.
Damn, this one has almost 1000 comments. I should help it get there
No. That’s why I’m here. You’re already annoying me. Begone from my website!!
(Say, anyone else notice Rando getting a big head lately?)
Too late. Its over 1000. I have become super troll. Now crawl back to your cave.
I would, but your girlfriend already closed her legs.
0_0
Thank you. That was EXACTLY what I was going for.
I wouldn’t know, I don’t look at Rando’s penis that often…
And besides, I’d say our egos are about equally sized….
So your ego is FAR too big for your health.
“that often”
I’m sorry, you misspelled “ever under any circumstances.”
You’re scaring me, kid.
-Snorts-
“That often” means “never deliberately”. Sometimes, guys stand in some STRANGE positions.
I told you to stop looking through my bedroom window.
DAMMIT! You never let me have any fun!
At least stop filming it for YouTube. That’s. Just. Gross. Nobody wants to see that.
*hastily closes YouTube window* Whut?
No! Don’t ask me to shut THAT down!! I’ve got almost…. THREE SUBSCRIBERS!
Yeah. You, charro, and me. That’s not very impressive.
I hit the subscribe button, but windows gave me “You have encountered a catastrophic error, your videos drivers have uninstalled themselves and your hard drive would like to have a word with you. If you continue to receive this message QUIT LOOKING AT THAT DAMN YOUTUBE VIDEO, FREAK!”
“. . . your hard drive would like to have a word with you. . . . ”
That was good. Kudos. ^:)^
“You have encountered a catastrophic error.”
Funny, that’s what my wife thought the first time she saw me naked too.
Yeah but if you can’t afford it you can euthanize.
The idea of insuring your health like you’d insure your car would be hilarious if there wasn’t a country that actually thought it was a good idea.
Here’s an experiment, go buy a porsche, remove the brakes, put a hole in the gas tank and set it on fire, then try getting insurance for it. Didn’t work, huh? Of course not, any insurance company that gave insurance in that situation wouldn’t last very long. And in the same way, it makes no financial sense for health insurance companies to insure, for instance, people who have cancer.
My great aunt and great uncle were treated humanely and given the best possible care even when it was clear their cancer was terminal. They’d both worked hard all their lives, in a mutions factory during the war and at a steel works, but they were poor and would never have been able to afford health insurance. A private only healthcare system would have seen them both “euthanised” a long time ago, with non of the care and dignity they were afforded by the NHS – which may not be perfect, but is certainly more moral than a profit-driven system that simply must exclude people in order to be viable.
When a private insurer does it, it’s euthanasia, but when their government does it, it’s “care and dignity”? WTF?
I think he means “took care of them, paid for the treatments, and made them as comfortable as they could be when they died.”, not “stabbed them with a knife” or “abandoned them mid-treatment to save money for the company, let them fall into bankruptcy, got them kicked out of the hospital and left them to die in the street” like I get the impression you thought he meant, Dhoti.
I thought he meant “denied further treatment and provided pain medication”, which it sounds like is pretty much what happened. I’m not taking issue with Ceefax’s account, but rather his somewhat brainwashed understanding of how insurance works.
Having dealt with death by terminal illness in my family before, I would say there IS a point where “further treatment” is just expensive torture of the patient, and pain management and as much dignity as possible should be the goal.
That is true. It is also true that that decision belongs up to the FAMILY of the patient in question as well as any preceding living wills that patient may possess, not up to any bureaucratic panel with charts and figures. That’s also true.
Quite agreed, although I would say it’s also important for the doctors involved to talk straight with the family about what’s going on. I’ve noticed that they reaallly don’t like to say “Look, there’s really nothing productive that we can do for him, sorry.”
Would you like to say that? My mother-in-law was brought in with a fatal heart attack (out of NOWHERE) a year ago and it was only the most extensive paramedic efforts and heavy drugs that were keeping her “alive” (i.e. she had a heartbeat- sorta) last year. She was never going to wake up. My father in law, who is suffering from dementia, was in charge and he insisted they keep her alive at all costs. The doctor tried every subtle message possible to let him know she wasn’t going to wake up, her pupils were fixed and dilated, there was likely no brain activity (she had been without oxygen for more than ten minutes) etc. but he kept making them do more and more. It came down to a guy doing compressions on her heart to keep her “alive” for a few minutes at a time, keeping the guy’s hopes up when we all knew she was dead. It was NOT EASY for that young woman to finally tell him “Sir, she’s not going to wake up for you. Please, will you ask your kids what to do?” We had been through about five rounds of manual compressions to bring about a heartbeat by then.
But I know that these decisions have to be made by the family, at their discretion, with their input, at the bedside – NOT by bureaucrats who decide your life is not worth it when in fact you actually COULD be kept alive for another year with cancer drugs. Ask Barbara Wagner if you don’t know what I mean. It’s easily googlable. Let the families do that, do not put it in the hands of faceless bureaucrats!
The goal should be whatever the patient or their family says it is — if they want to keep fighting, then God bless ‘em. (I don’t think that’s what you’re saying here, but I worry that some folks would withhold aggressive treatments from others because they don’t think they’d go through with them themselves.)
Mostly, I want it to be me, or my family, that makes that decision, not a cost-adjusted quality-of-life chart.
Uh, what? The government funded healthcare system in my country didn’t do “it”, they continued to provide treatment even though their condition was terminal. In a country with only private care they’d have been left to die even if it was treatable.
Oh that’s crappola and you know it. If you don’t, you shouldn’t be commenting about it at all.
Medicare and Medicaid fill that gap and treat the terminally ill.
You fail to understand the full definition of “terminal” — it means a condition is fatal and can’t be treated *with the options available*. Your vaunted NHS doctors evaluated their condition, looked up their age and potential treatment costs on the “quality of life” sliding scale, and decided their treatment wasn’t cost-effective — voila, “terminal”, and they were left to die.
Perhaps you should educate yourself on how the NHS operates — and also on how private insurance operates, a topic on which you are severely uninformed — before making more idiotic statements.
Are you saying there are no untreatable medical cnditions?
If he is, then he has no clue about the realities of medicine.
Haven’t read the bill, eh? Nor know how the NHS works? Of course there are illnesses that are *currently* untreatable and everyone dies sometime. That is far from the issue.
So, you’re saying that people only die because they’re too poor to be treated? Think before you speak.
I guarantee you that we will all eventually die of an untreatable medical condition (or perhaps several mixed together).
What the hell are you on about? They could have given him a biopsy, but he wouldn’t have survived the operation. Are you telling me that privately funded doctors would have then been able to bring him back to life?
You get told such utter shit about the NHS in the US, it would be funny if people didn’t believe it.
“Stephen Hawkin would be dead if he were British” is one of my recent favourites.
You’ll have to forgive me if I don’t automatically accept the perspective of some pro-nanny-state brainwashed Brit, particularly one who tosses around “euthanasia” with abandon without seeming to know what it actually means.
But you’ll get over it. Go into the kitchen, take out your Government-designed anti-stabbing knife, and make yourself a snack, complete with a warm beer in your Government-approved plastic pub glass. Then turn on the telly and watch a Government-sponsored puff piece about how Sharia law isn’t so bad, really.
I think you’ve actually lost your mind. Is that really what they tell you about Britain in the States? I only used the word euthanasia because it’s being thrown around by the wild-eyed folk screaming about Hilter and death panels while waving their assault rifles around outside wherever your president is visiting.
Euthanasia, Hitler, death panels, and assault rifles, all in one sentence — I’m impressed. It only cements your reputation as a drone, of course, but still, Big Brother will no doubt be impressed with your mastery of his talking points.
Keep working on your Inshallas and praying for the French to invade and put ol’ Blighty out of its collective decaying misery.
French? Invade?
:::rolls down the hill laughing with the irony of a conservative mentioning the French invading another country, hits head on rock, sits up, rubbing noggin:::
Oww! Thanks, Dhoti!
Here, I brought an ice pack. Let me stitch that up with some red vines.
It’s okay; I don’t expect you to keep up with the news. (The real news, I mean, not your infotainment outlet of choice.) See, for example, the French Foreign Legion in Afghanistan, or the French Navy off of East Africa.
I promise I won’t be disappointed if that doesn’t make an impression on you. Go back to your freedom fries and be happy.
So, the French have a presence in unstable countries, much like we do? And it’s an invasion? So, we invaded those (among other) countries as well?
If you remember your history, charro, you’ll recall that the only foreign belligerents in the invasion of Afghanistan were the US and the UK. France entered later, in OEF and ISAF.
Since you seem to be having trouble with the basics today, I’ll quote this for you too:
in·va·sion (n-vzhn)
n.
1. The act of invading, especially the entrance of an armed force into a territory to conquer.
Awww, thanks for the dictionary definition Dhoti, you’re such a sweetheart. I was just asking, since I couldn’t remember if you’re one of those people who denies we “invaded” another country, as if when we do it it’s somehow “right”, and “good”, and when other countries do it it’s an “invasion”. I remember history fine, but people get caught up on the semantics. I’m pleased to see that you recognise “invasion” the way it’s supposed to be recognised.
I appreciate the sarcasm though, now I feel all tingly inside. *shiver*
So you admit that your point made absolutely no sense, and you have nothing of value to add to the discussion. I’m glad we agree.
It’s hard to have a discussion with a brick wall, but thanks for the rudeness and sarcasm for just asking a question. I don’t understand why you’re so full of hate, Dhoti, but I hope that you can get over it sometime.
And I wasn’t aware that asking a question to determine someone’s position was not adding to the discussion? I could have just started lambasting you for something I *thought* you believed instead of just asking civilly. But you met my question so rudely, obviously there’s no point in having a discussion, now is there? I’m glad you have so much “worthwhile” to add to the discussion. Next time I’ll just make up my own version of how you feel and start screaming at you about it, ok?
Why would you lead off with a basically irrelevant question, if you were truly interested in having a discussion? And why, when you say you know better, would you make such a blindingly obvious mistake? Clearly, you’re not trying to have a discussion; you’re trying to start a fight.
So, when you get called on your little schtick, don’t whine about it like a spoiled child. (Or do — I think it’s hilarious, but it’s not doing you any favors.)
I’ll cut you a break — if you can think up an actual, on-topic, relevant question to ask, I’ll answer it and pretend none of this ever happened. Otherwise, feel free to call the waaaahmbulance.
Oh Dhoti Dhoti Dhoti. You completely misunderstand. If I didn’t lead off with the question, you would have gotten all pissy at me for assuming something that’s not true. Honestly, I thought you were one of those people who thinks our “occupying force” isn’t an invasion of a sovereign nation, and thought you were being a hypocrite. But instead of going “ZOMG LOOK AT DHOTI BEING A HYPOCRITE EVERYONE POINT AND LAUGH”, I just asked, to find out for myself. Asking questions about someone’s views isn’t irrelevant, ever. But now, I really don’t care about your views, you’re just being an ass for no reason.
I’m not at all interested in playing games with you, so let’s just part ways here and you can stop wasting time thinking up your insults. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!!!!!!!
Let me make that more clear for you, I was curious to know how you felt, so I asked. That’s not irrelevant at all. I think you’re just so used to being on the defensive you’re trying to make me be the bad guy.
I never realized the right to arbitrarily ask a lame and irrelevant leading question was so important to you.
So, then, let me ask you one: do you support the British trends towards appeasement and disengagement? And, given that these trends encourage the rise of Islamist regimes and sharia law, does that mean that you believe Sharia is a better form of government for the UK (and Basra and Helmand province) than local law?
Remember, my asking a question about your views isn’t irrelevant, ever — so dodging or weaseling would be highly hypocritical.
Are you off your medication?!
Yeah, this post; this one HERE:
WAS. A. JOKE. YOU. WERE. INVITED.
Catch up.
No, on second thought. Go to hell.
I’m done with you, crazy one.
Invited? What a ridiculous concept.
Your whines are music to my ears — like a spanked, spoiled child. (How appropriate!)
French invading another country – The last time that happened was the Peninsular War I think, at which time they became the only nation to have lost to both the Italians and the Spanish!
Paws, I’m not at all surprised that charro didn’t get it, but I wouldn’t have expected you to fall for her lame little trick. I was talking about COIN and interdiction operations — she was the one who started talking about invasions (apparently to make some finger-waggling point, which is why she got all butthurt.)
charro, in fact, probably doesn’t get the difference between an invasion operation and a counterinsurgency operation — putting her in the same category as people like Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz, which seems appropriate. The British made the same mistake — they were great in the invasions, but they totally screwed up Basra, and they’re not doing well in Helmand province, either.
From Wikipedia, “In the context of an occupation or an armed rebellion, counter-insurgency (abbreviated COIN) is a military term for the combat against an insurgency, by forces aligned with the recognised government of the territory in which the armed conflict takes place.”
So ok you need not be that nation’s forces to participate in COIN, as I first thought, but you must be invited by the legitimate government of the territory I’d say.
My comment about the French invading other nations was besed n the well-known “complete military history of France”.
ISAF and the GoA *are* the legitimate government of Afghanistan. (They haven’t had a legitimate government in 20+ years; cut them some slack.) Regardless of Wikipedia’s poor phrasing, the French have been participating in population-centric COIN, and doing it quite well.
And yes, I know that forward; I first saw it twelve or so years ago. Like I said, I think, post-2001, the French have shown themselves to be made of sterner stuff.
Actually, I think Afghanistan may be a mistake, but not for the reasons you probably think. The reason I think Afghanistan is a mistake is that nobody except the Afghans has ever won a war in Afghanistan.
Gee, I guess I was familiar with the *typical* conservative that does nothing but INSULT the French . . . .
but I forgot, you just like to insult . . . . anyone who responds, I guess.
Eff ya, then.
You’re a bit out of date — no surprise there.
It’s just adorable, the way you whine and moan when you’re so clearly and obviously wrong — it’s cute beyond words. Admitting your mistake like an adult would be no fun at all, would it?
Oh, the mistake where I tried to invite you in to a joke, in a bit of ill-conceived friendliness, to relieve some of the grinding ugliness and insult-flinging ’round here last coupla days, and you turn around to bite, like a rabid weasel?
Yep, that WAS a mistake. Won’t make it again, you can be sure.
“It’s all a joke”? Really? That’s the best you can come up with?
* Main Entry: dho·ti
* Pronunciation: \ˈdō-tē\
* Function: noun
* Inflected Form(s): plural dhotis
* Etymology: Hindi & Urdu dhotī
* Date: 1612
: a loincloth worn by men in some parts of India
So you’re a pair of underpants?
Truly, you couldn’t have chosen a more appropriate name.
You’re really pulling out all the stops, aren’t you? Like I said — cute beyond words.
I’ll even pretend my earlier response to charro didn’t give you the idea for the dictionary bit.
…why are you named Dhoti anyway?
Because he acts like an ass, and just barely has courtesy enough to wrap a thin cloth around it . . . .
(AS IF no one else on earth had ever thought of posting a dictionary def. before… sure! That’s an innovation which only occurred to that great thinker, Dhoti ….. sheesh. I have been educated in argument, and oftentimes clarification of terms is *necessary*. I’ve been turning to the dictionary for online discussions since before most people knew what “online” meant.)
All that fancy education, Nao, and yet you act like a flailing imbecile. Don’t get me wrong, it’s adorable, but your self-image is hilariously out of whack.
Prove me just a little bit wrong — I dare you. Don’t reply. Not one word.
Someone’s self-image must be “out-of-whack” all right, for that one to be constantly on the attack … it’s not in the slightest, tiniest bit “adorable” for a thinking person to behave as you have.
But go on, sharpen your barbs and give it another go . . .
I knew you didn’t have it in you. Dance, my puppet, dance!
(And for what? You’ve shaved a couple years off your life raging about what, a lame joke you made? Get a life!)
“Raging”? LOL
Oh, that’s rich.
If your words are to be taken for the way anyone *feels* (not always, but sometimes people reveal themselves in this way), then you are the one “raging” at ….
well, everything, apparently.
Talk about puppets. So far you’ve done everything according to script. People like you always have to have the last word, to feel superior, to put others down just to puff themselves up . . . as I said previously, ” . . . give it another go”. And I knew you would.
Lessee, if you’re anything like one other “raging” psycho I met on a message board: when he couldn’t ruffle my feathers any other way, he cyberstalked me, in an effort to scare me. A bit of a surprise, but I must’ve really gotten to him, when he couldn’t piss me off.
Ahhhh! All the stresses of the day just seem to melt away when I visit here. Thank you, Cloth of the Loin. Thank you.
Your knowledge of England seems to come from reading the Daily Mail, taking mind bending pescription drugs, going to sleep and writing down your dreams when you wake up.
Believe it or not, out here in the world of pointy knives and modern dentistry, we have our *own* newspapers — why on earth would I read one of yours? If you’re going to keep throwing out sniveling insults — why you insist, I have no idea — at least try to make them internationally relevant, okay?
Or you can just keep talking about Hitler. That’s always a crowd-pleaser.
Strangely enough, I have a very nice sharp pointy pocket knife which I use for camping, along with an entire rack of rather fearsome looking kitchen knives. I also have a rather good dentist, although it’s quite funny hearing that being brought up as an example of how terrible universal healthcare is, seeing as that’s one of the only health related services we DO pay for and an area where there are far more people who use private providers. Maybe you should actually visit us some time or read a non-American newspaper and find out what actually goes on outside your borders. Although I guess it might make your head explode, based on the fantasical imaginings you currently have.
Talking about relevance (which is funny coming from Dhoti, master of the non-sequitur , king of all that is irrelevant) what is this strange obsession you have with Sharia law? You seem to bring is up in every thread and it almost seems like you think England are going to impliment it because they’re so liberal. Which seems slightly ass backwards, seeing as Sharia is a strictly conservative system which supports the death penalty, outlaws abortion and homosexuality, has a zero tolerance approach to narcotics and shuns the idea of separation of church and state. If you were worried about living under such laws, I’d suggest you look at some politicians closer to home.
It’s ok Ceefax, we don’t take him seriously either.
Who would have guessed Socks the Cat would give the Hitler thread a run for its money?
Socks standing on health care was very controversial.. almost on the same level as Hitler’s stand on human rights.
He lived with Hillary Clinton. Why would anyone be surprised by his stance?
Considering that She-Bat, I’d say that Socks is probably in favor of 248th trimester abortions…….
Kitty has smartz!
All debate aside…as for proper care regarding the above pic…there are PLENTY of people I know who should be NEUTERED.
Starting with you.
Why would you say that? Seriously. That’s just ridiculous. There are LOTS of people, particularly the dude with 21 kids for whom we are paying, who should be. If I’m paying for the kids he has, fine. But the trade off is that he shouldn’t be allowed to have any more until he can pay for them himself. Which ain’t gonna happen.
Are you sure you’re wanna go there? ‘Cos I don’t think you do.
Why? “I’ll subsizdize your kids if you quit having more” is a choice.
I don’t think ANY of us, left or right, want the government deciding how many kids we can have.
Well of course not.
Having grown up in the system not knowing my siblings, I would have loved a big family of my own with bunches of kids. I couldn’t afford them, so I didn’t have them.
But something should be done to slow the abuse of the system.
Well your sarcastic solution clearly wouldn’t work. What else you got?
Why won’t it? We already offer cash incentives for people to have more kids, why not reverse the trend?
Because that’s called being classist.
Ask the science Czar, John Holdren. You’re quite wrong on that one, my friend.
I haven’t heard anything about this.
John Holdren co-authored a book with some really scary people who believe in forced sterilization of the masses to control the population. He was in on the writing of “The Population Bomb” that said we would overpopulate the world by 1987 (I think). Now, I believe he’s come out against that view since then, but considering Obama’s stellar track record for nominating “czars” and other people in his administration, I’m honestly not sure where I’d stand.
Have you heard about the new nut he’s appointed? Apparently this guy enjoys calling President Bush a “crack head” and says that black children won’t shoot up a school like white children will. Among many other retarded statements…..
Is that Van Jones, the Troofer?
That’s it. I blanked on his name and was too lazy to look it up myself.
“MorticiaAddams says:
September 2, 2009 at 8:43 pm
1984 isn’t fiction anymore.”
There we go.
Eric said it because if you’re going to start cutting off people’s ability to reproduce, they should start with the idiot who suggested it in the first place.
MorticiaAddams says:
September 2, 2009 at 9:40 pm
Wow, you’re really confrontational regarding sarcasm, aren’t you?
Quit being an ass.
Jeesus.
You first, deary.
ANother aNnoyIng Evil Excuse for a troll, you know?
No wai!
How original
Oh! Maybe I have confused you with your originator ….. sorry, Sock!
” . . . pot-addled point” …. yes, of course, that’s it. Because all of the Ebil Liberals are potheads.
Nope, the only drugs I ingest are either prescribed or some alcohol once in awhile (that, I prescribe myself).
But the government doesn’t require taxpayers to cover people’s pet’s healthcare.
I wouldn’t mind so much if the government would responsibly spend what it already takes away from me and my family. But it doesn’t. And that just makes me irritated. I’d rather provide grants to people who want to run free clinics than have the government cover everyone.
THAT’S your solution? It’s a good idea, I’ll give you that. But not a solution.
Before any comment causes a subthread that spins out of hand, I’d like to say that it’s really mostly important that you realise it’s “Wharrgarbl” and no other communist militia went in to stabled horses and stabilised
-Cough cough-
We’re having some technical difficulties right now.
We’ll be back in a moment.
-Runs offstage to screech at Danbala-
Stabled horses? What did I miss?
I wonder too. Communist militia? Alas, the tab I apparently had copied this from wasn’t in FF when I opened it, so I now have no idea where it’s from. :p
It must be ghost taking over my computer and trying to tell me, or us, something!!!!!!!111!!!11!
ROFL. Right. The latest thing that happened I was trying to cut ‘n paste and the good ole Firefox died on me. I didn’t know it actually managed to post before it did.
It is a MOST interesting post. :p
the US – the great melting pot — where the people at the bottom get burned and the scum rises to the top
Well played!
Right out of Obama’s Little Red Book- given to all of his most loyal followers.
Dearest, that book wasn’t from Obama.
It was from a very, very confused Sarah Palin.
It’s called Early Onset Alzheimer’s.
The only red books I ever see given out are those Red Gideon Bibles…
vets are OK, but i’d rather see an M.D.
I just woke Up. Do we have a sock problem?
Duh? The cat at the top of hte page
You’re going to hurt yourself if you keep rolling your eyes that much.
Dhoti – do you post anywhere else that is more largely populated with SANE people, because I find it really hard to carry on an intelligent conversation amongst so many idiots. And I’d really appreciate talking to you somewhere where we could actually TALK without the idiocy. If not, fine, but I figured I’d give it a shot. People here even openly explain that they will not examine the other side while claiming to be open-minded and tolerant and all that phony stuff. Pearls before swine and all that.
If you want to talk to me you can find me at the Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler or at my blog {www.purelypolitics.blogspot.com} or even at my board {www.annieeblackheart.com} But talking here is pretty much an impossibility.
If you don’t like it so much, why do you insist on sticking around? Are you a masochist? You can’t really blame us when you keep coming around with no other agenda than to act like and ass and refuse to be civil to anybody.
Did you lose your sock?
*grabs charro and gently guides her away from the windmill she’s tilting at*
*offers her a cookie*
Ooh, cookie. I like cookies. *noms*
Wait. You have a blog and a board with similarly nutty people, and you’re mad because we don’t think like you do? Are you fvcking crazy???
To continue: if you want to be around a bunch of people who think just like you, go to your board! Stop bugging us! What is wrong with you??
That’s fine, Rando, DON’T examine any viewpoints other than your own even if they ARE backed up by hard numbers and explain the people you so vehemently argue against (without cause apparently, since you don’t KNOW what they stand for – don’t look for any credibility again when characterizing the other side, by the way.) Sorry we couldn’t connect on a real level – like that of intelligence. And sorry your wife is such a reactionary brainwashed idiot.
-Snorts and pokes Anniee in the eyes-
What was it we said about not going after the families?
Oh, well.
Did you miss the “He’s watched your previous links” bit?
My wife lurks here sometimes. Anniee better hope she doesn’t start posting here. I’m far more tolerant of conservative views than she is. And she’s even more liberal than I am. It’d be awesome if she did start posting here though.
You guys are much nicer than I would be.
*cue Alice Cooper music*
No more Mr. Nice Guy. No more Mr. clee-he-he-heeeean!!
More lib’rul? Oooooo she should post, I’ll have fun with her!
And no… not that in way.. OW OW stop it Rando! NOT IN THE FACE!
*sigh* I’ll get the mop.. Again.
-Quietly slides mop out of reach and waits for Charro to grab his “handle”-
Hey, I don’t mind having my hair washed around the floor.
*slaps Igor* You dirty little boy. What would your troll think!
They’d like to watch.
Watch this: WIFEY!
No? Damnit.
I have the WORST stalker troll EVER. Freaking attention span of a goldfish. -Whistles- HEY! TROLL! HEY! HERE! NOW!
Hey, the only troll I perform for is bitter.
-bitter flex-
I had no idea that much blood could come out of someone’s head. It’s like a swimming pool.
La la la la swimming in the blooooood, just swimming in the bloooood…
no in that way* My brain… it no workses!
Come on in Mrs Rando, the water’s lovely!!
She completely lacks empathy. It’s almost sociopathic. The longer she keeps self-medicating with alcohol and avoiding necessary professional therapy the worse it’s going to get.
Therapy is a liberal myth, Jane.
The feeling is almost mutual. Not quite, but almost.
Igor, don’t go there. That isn’t what I said and you’re going to fall flat on your ass.
Here’s a video fer ya, Annieee. Music by my friend, Art Alexakis:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1919395/jesus_was_a_democrat/
E V E R C L E A R ! ! !
Everclear is teh awesum.
Indeed. Just saw them last month in Wisconsin, BTW.
Annie, remember when you got all pissy that James the Conqueror went after your daughter?
Yeah, that’s what I meant. If you don’t want YOUR family insulted, don’t insult others’….
He kept bringing her in as an excuse – all the while people telling me **I** don’t cite any sources or provide any rationale for what I say when in fact I was indeed doing so. Igor, you lose this one. He kept dragging her in, not me.
Anniee, just because he doesn’t want his wife to see him watching it doesn’t say anything about his wife. It says something about Eric, maybe, but at the end of the day, you’re the one making the judgment about the wife.
Didn’t they teach you about apples and oranges in grade school? It’s a basic mathematical principle; check it out sometime.
Are you a big fan of cognitive dissonance?
Because if you’re going to get upset because you’ve stated that your daughter is a lesbian, that that doesn’t make it okay for JTC to say something rude about her, you should probably treat other people’s families the same way.
FYI one was a link to a cartoon about the very basics of how a free society is organized set to catchy music; the other was merely a list of objective reasons to be *proud* of this country. There was nothing any reasonable, sensible, intelligent person could object to (argue with, arguably, but object to? Please). I’m sorry but if he has to be ashamed of that, there’s something deeply wrong, and he has confirmed that by his subsequent comments anyway. Seriously something wrong there. FWIW I doubt it’s his wife; I’m sure that’s just an excuse. No one would brag about their wife being utterly closed-minded and stupid.
Okay, but where the links are going to aren’t important if Eric isn’t going to click them due to the past things he’s seen you link. And most any compliment can be twisted into a backhanded insult like that if you try to, Anniee. Usually I try to stick with “You are pretty.” – much safer.
{http://punditkitchen.com/2009/06/22/political-pictures-girl-scouts/#comment-179940}
I’m not going to provide any more links for you to dismiss, Anniee…
Screw you.
Might want to double-check how often I say to someone “You’re making us all look like idiots, get the hell off your soapbox of stupidity”, because I do it plenty. And yeah, I do argue with someone when they bother me. Same as you, so suck it.
Here, you might want to check out my 9/11 remembrance video etc. It is one of those days when we all remember (theoretically) that we are Americans and have a common interest. This one is particularly poignant, I think, because it focuses on the jumpers. {http://purelypolitics.blogspot.com/2009/09/salute-to-911-victims-jumpers.html}
Wait, what? He pretends to be unbiased? When did this happen, Igor?
I’ve never seen Igor pretend to be unbiased. Fair, certainly. But he has opinions that fall on a particularly side of the political spectrum . . . we ALL do, or we wouldn’t be here, arguing about cr@p, would we?
” . . . fall on a particular side of the political spectrum . . . ”
(-ly)
Oh, she likes to think that everyone is a troll and those of us who argue with her are just liberals bashing conservatives only. It’s true, I bash fewer liberals, because some of them I agree with, or some of them don’t piss me off enough to bash. The problem is that I’ve done quite a bit of liberal bashing too, when they’re acting like frothy douches, or when I think they’re not proving a point- just insulting aimlessly.
“Mathematical” principle? Wouldn’t it be a principle of logic? It doesn’t have too much to do with mathematics. Unless you’re doing story problems.
Wait, what? Didn’t you get to learn about fruitgebra in school? I guess those who bash the American education system are right!
REfusing to examine opposing evidence is pretty much the definition of closed-minded, fool. But you’re not even near the top of the food chain of the leftists here, so I don’t much care what you think. At all.
Yeah Rando, she cares so little she just had to come here to say it.
She’s all butthurt because I won’t be her token liberal friend. I already have token conservative friends. I don’t need more of that.
Well we don’t really care what you think either, because unlike other conservatives on this site, you refuse to listen, or you just dismiss everyone as brainless or close minded. So do us all a favor, and yourself a favor, and stay on your own board where you and your ilk can just be anti-social, abrasive, and organize your “revolution” in frothy peace. We’re all tired of you here, and it’s obvious you’re tired of us, so just go, just leave, no one will miss you and I doubt very much you’ll miss us.
There’s a food chain, here? :::looks behind her:::
Who’s going to eat *me*?!
:::snickers behind hand:::
You have snickers? Why aren’t you sharing?!
I’ll share if you tell me who’s above me on the food chain . . . in other words, who will I get eaten by?!
:::hands the whole snickers to charro, cuz I hate snickers:::
Umm… *spins around in circle until dizzy and stops on random person like spin the bottle* ZOMG FROO GO BACK TO YOUR CORNER!!!
*noms snickers*
You want sauce on that Snickers?
Is it fudge?
I take requests.
Oh that is the WRONG thing to say around here. O_O
Well, dammit! If there’s a food chain, I need to know, don’t I? I mean, it should be in the FAQ or something, shouldn’t it?
Try as I might, I can’t discern the Alpha Lib and the Alpha Con, and I’m usually pretty good at that sort of social system nuance. What, is there a challenge, a monthly tournament, a vote?
I know! Since it’s Pundit Kitchen, there’s a cook-off, right? Hahhh? Yeaaah, that’s it. Aww, I’m doomed to be the Omega, then. Unless I can be the sous chef. That’s my forte.
Sorry Nao, love.. Only Anniee has that secret list. We trusted it to her because we knew should would never reveal it to a dirty dirty liberal, even if tortured.
*shivers* All this talk about dirty has made me randy. bitter dear, where are you?
“. . . All this talk about dirty has made me randy . . . ”
That, and the torturing.
But, see . . . I can take Anniee. And she’ll crack under torture, like only a weak, weak con does.
:::whips out pastry cutter wheel from behind back:::
:::evil, one-sided smile:::
I’m so turned on right now. Take me, oh giver of snickers and pastry cutter torture!
Will Bitter Troll be joining us, or do I have you all to myself?
:::dangles billy goat leash from other hand:::
Oh wooooooooowwww…
bitter seems indisposed at the moment, feel free to lead me where thou willst.
Shoulda resisted the urge to keep telling me how intolerant she was then, shouldn’t you? That was YOUR doing, not mine.
By the way- Just because he told you that he didn’t want his wife to see him watching something like that, and even if he did leave her open with that statement, that doesn’t make it okay for you to go after her, any more than it does for you to say that your daughter is a lesbian and for JTC to imply that you “turned” her that way.
No. Being heartless would involve talking about his daughter as mine was talked about. I didn’t bring anything to the conversation he didn’t bring himself, and multiple times for the same purpose.
Double standards, you has them….
Igor… please do be flaming me nao for the lolspeak.
I refuse to flame for a post that accurate, Maxwell… Plus I know you don’t actually mean it as LOLspeak- because you know how to spell the real English language, too..
I thought these two videos might be of use to anniee451 and froofroo and the rest of you people who care to keep arguing instead of conversing.
http://video.pbs.org/video/1099857730/program/979358040
http://video.pbs.org/video/1050712790/program/979358040
I found them very enlightening and cause for meaningful thought and conversation. Healthcare reform on some level seems a inevitable at this point, people just need to decide what we want to do about this problem.
You had me at “pbs”
Me at “reform is inevitable” (and IMO necessary); most of my arguments are aimed at getting the conservatrolls to accept this.
SB and other vidiots are always very impressed by NPR and PBS as though there is no inherent bias there. Good going
Interesting. Where is the “inherent” bias when they are supported by their viewers and listeners: THE AMERICAN PUBLIC?
Come on: Your last post was at 8:27 (10:27 CDT); mine was at 8:35 (10:35 CDT), eight minutes apart.
I’m waiting to hear from you about the “inherent bias”.
did you watch the vids anniee451? Watch them, I will admit, there is a pro-reform bias. But it is hard to find anyone who is completely happy with the way things are now. However these two videos are not obama propaganda, I assure you.
One video is about some of the sucesses and failures of the current american system. The other is about the sucesses and failures of other national healthcare plans.
nikki – don’t bother trying to educate a certain person who isn’t one of the rational conservatives here, it just can’t be done; and further responding to that person just fans it’s flames of self-importance and delusions of power & control. not to mention a total waste of bandwith…. i know, i speak with the voice of experience….
FINIS!
Of course this begs the question: who owns the people, then?
Great idea! Here’s my address so you can send me your money directly instead of having the government take your money and put it in my pocket. If I were employed or a citizen, I’d return the favor….
but since I’m not….
I’m charro, and I approve this timely message.
I’m Lucas and I second this approval of this message.
I’d just like to add that health insurance is *NOT* affordable to everyone. There is this magical little line called “pre-existing conditions”. If you fall outside of said line, you can get insurance. The problem comes in when you have a “pre-existing condition”. Now, if you are content to draw Dissability forever, the chances are quite good that your income will never be high enough to disqualify you for Medicare/Medicaid. However, if you have a history of poor health and *gasp* you make too much money for state assistance, well, then you are just plain out of luck.
The only Health Insurance I can get (despite being able to easily afford full coverage at the normal rates) is a “high risk” policy through my state. You want to know how affordable it is? Sure, I’ll tell you. The monthly premiums start at $600 per month, with a $10,000 a year deductable, after which the policy pays 50%. Wow. So yeah, everyone who says that “every American can buy insurance by going without internet” can give me their policy and take the ONLY option I am given for healthcare themselves. That’s what I call fair play.
Health Care Reform is not about the very poor, it’s about the middle class. It’s not about public health care (though there is a public option to keep insurance companies honest), it’s about making new rules so insurance companies can’t take Americans’ lunch money and shove us down the staircase. Is it so wrong for me to want the ability to choose my own health insurance company or *gasp* not want to live on a handout? Gee, I know, us sick people should just keel over and stop breathing everyone else’s air, right? Forgive me if I lack simpathy for those who support the insurance companies extortion of the American people, especially the middle class.
We shouldn’t try that because people don’t own other people
Thank you for article i will bookmark there for read later.
It is later. It’s two years later.
Good issue i will return to your page again thank you.
My mom is talking about selling my 17 week old boxer pup because she is not housebroke yet how do I keep her from selling her? Please dont say “house train her” because I know that would help but it takes time.
I really dont know why you all are on my back here but come on I’m only 15 and have 3 other dogs, 4 horses and a cat to take care of too and yes my mom does understand that training a dog takes time she has yorkies inside plus their puppies when they have them
Teach your dog how to fly, that will convince your mom to keep it.
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I’m doing a science project and need to use a laser pointer. The project is about making a toy for children aged 9 to 12. Since light from a laser pointer is harmful to the eyes, I want to put maybe a material to filter some harmful stuff or something from the laser light. If possible, please tell me where I can purchase it. Other ways to make laser light less harmful are welcome.
Hey, Nice work! This is very much helpful for my research and i hope to run through more of your posts someday! How i wish i can see you in person so i can get to know you more. thank you.
I love coffee and in the morning I was adding coffee creamer and then it hit me. A question about whether or not coffee creamer was a dairy product. Answer, please! Thank you.