Breaking News – Joe Wilson, Kanye West to compete for “2009 Douchebag of the Year Award”
(Joe Wilson and Kanye West)
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Joe Wilson, Kanye West
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Hard to choose who should win that one…
not really (Kanye West)
Agreed.
Ditto.
Kinda interesting how this implies that Obama is the
equivalent of a naive, defenseless 19-year old girl.
Actually it isn’t. Don’t you ever have anything good to say?
How is Joe Wilson a douche bag?
Because he called out Obama on his lying? Wait you seriously think Obama doesn’t lie?
Of course Obama lies, he’s a politician, they all do! However, in this case Obama wasn’t lying because of the context of the forum. Legal documents are written in literal terms, the language of congress reflects this; so unless the bill said in it “This bill will provide insurance for illegal immigrants.” in some form, Obama saying it doesn’t cover them isn’t a lie. Besides, even Wilson seemed embarrassed afterwards, don’t defend him when even he knows he was out of order!
Sorry, but that’s a poor argument. It’s what legislation DOESN’T say that leads to loopholes and interpretation other than what was intended. Republicans introduced a measure that stated no illegal immigrants could be covered under a healthcare reform bill, and it was voted down.
And Joe Wilson was embarrassed by the WAY he conducted himself during the speech. But he has repeatedly said he still believes the president’s statements were incorrect.
Can’t I vote “present” anymore?
What if Joe Wilson has turret’s syndrome?
Turret’s syndrome? Can a turret really have a syndrome of some kind? Oh, you mean Tourette’s Syndrome. Way to go.
you’re complaining about spelling on a sister site of ICanHazCheeseburger?
Clues are $14.99 each. Plus tax.
Get one today.
actually im pretty sure he just has douchebag-itis
Not the point. His statement was an accusation of Obama as person, instead of his policies. That was mistake #1
Mistake #2 is the venue (the President giving a speech) in which he leveled the criticism.
hmm, good point, I can see the resemblance now. thanks!
I got a technical question, since I’m not english:
How do you pronounce the vowels “ou” for “douche” in douchebag?
Is it like in “who” or rather like in “house”?
More like “oo” in “fool.”
So like “doochebag” ?, that’s what i thought. Thanks for your info.
It sounds like “Dooshbag.”
Douchebag is a wonderful word. You can shorten it to just “douche” or you can add on to it, like “douche nozzle.” Or, you can make it an adjective, like “douchetacular.” Use it in a sentence today!
And savor it as it roooollllssss off the tongue…dooooooshhhbaaaaggggg. Or shorten it and spit it out like a bullet…as in, “you fk’n DOOSH!!”
Yes, SB, it’s great word…very satisfying.
That reminds me of the audio dissertation of the word “F*ck” that I’ve heard.
Fcuk is a winner too. So many variations, so many meanings…it really enriches the language, I think.
I don’t know why, but your comment made me LOL. ‘…Like a bullet… DOOSH!!’. Lol
Or even my all time favorite of, “anal douchebag” … people just give you a look of disgust, its fantastic!!
*looks at Bridget with disgust*
“anal douchebag”? We’ve already a previously existing word….”enema”. Or for a real major ‘cleansing’: “high colonic”.
This message brought to you from the world of medical biology.
I’m also partial to “anal douche,” Bridget. I like your style!
Douchetard is a good standby to have in your arsenal
But that sounds uncomfortable to carry around in your arsenal.
and smelly, but if you like that smell more power to you
But—”douche” just means “shower” in French.
It’s just never seemed to me to be a very good insult.
I guess in France it’s not.
I’d hazard a guess to say “only in America” . . . because an old (male) friend who grew up in Germany would sometimes say, “I’m going to go douche, now”, just for effect, I guess.
His mom, who was German, corroborated: that was what they called a shower.
It’s actually two syllables in German: Dusche – doo-sha.
I like your style up there, though.
yup kanye has my vote.
Another vote for Kanye.
Hands down Kanye…
Yes, Kanye has had a great year in the Douchebag Competition. With this 2009 win, he may be in the running for a nomination as the Greatest Douchebag in the Universe, currently held by John Edwards
I bet he likes Fishsticks…
Yo odinsmom, I’m really happy for you Imma let you finish, but “troll_69″ had the best first comment OF ALL TIME!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Wilson’s a douchebag for calling O’Bama out on a lie.
Right.
Got it.
*shakes head in awe*
No, Wilson is a douchebag for interupting and acting like a child. That was not the forum to express his views.
He really should have known better, after all those Democrats were censured for booing during Bush’s joint session addresses.
Oh, wait…
Booing is like cheering–it is allowed (even if it is referred to as ‘unpatriotic’). And all of those Republicans were never censured for booing Clinton, so get over it already.
I counted three different kinds of non-response in there. Good job.
Accusations of lying on the House floor are explicitly forbidden under their rules of decorum.
See, I didn’t even bring up that Wilson was factually challenged!
Actually, it says you can’t call the president a liar. Saying a statement is a lie, however, isn’t prohibited. Perhaps a distinction without a difference, but it is a distinction.
But apparently you can in the Senate. Interesting.
I always thought that Congress would at least be more entertaining (if not less destructive to the American people) if they had the same attitude as the House of Commons and crafted their insults in the same way that artisans paint or sculpt. But not like the NEA, because that’s not art
I’ve been thinking about the difference between the British and American rules for decorum, and all I can come up with is that they are free to rip on one another because they are theoretically subject to a monarch, who is the only one to get true respect in their system.
Oh my god you’re naked? *drools*
Actually he was absolutely correct. He has been woking on the HealthCare Obamanation in trying to put an enforceable clause in the bill to prevent illegals from access but has been rebuked by Obama. Thats why he lost it. Wrong place, yes. But factual.
Boos happened during Obama’s speech, with no call for censure. That is a neutral statement of fact. Here is another opportunity for you, Dhoti, to accept that reality exists.
If that butt hurt doesn’t go away in another day or so, you might want to consult a doctor.
Stalking? Seriously?
I challenged you, Dhoti, on one thread, and then on this one. Three times *might* constitute “stalking,” but thus far, hardly.
I see that you ignored what I said, in favor of silly silliness. But I am, against all odds, asking that you acknowledge what actually happened during President Obama’s speech on health care: Republicans booed, as opposition parties do. If you say this didn’t happen, you are therefore rejecting reality and opting to live in a world of fantasy.
Looking for me on unrelated threads — and then showing up to *only* talk to me — that’s stalking, all right. Contemptible, pitiful, and quite hilarious.
But don’t worry; I’ll treat you with precisely the seriousness and respect you’ve shown to be worthy of.
*glove slap* I challenge you.. to a DEWEL!!! (you have to pronounce the “ooh-ell” for maximum effect)
If he brings his A game, then it’s on like Donkey Kong. But this kind of crap — worth one warning, but nothing more, really.
When I crack the glowsticks.. It’s on like Donkey Kong.
Thing is, Dhoti, I didn’t have to look for you. There you were, ignoring reality again right near the top; and, since it is so easy to show you that you are wrong, I just went ahead and did it.
Fact #1: Republicans booed during President Obama’s speech. No big whoop. Fact #2: Joe the Congressman acted like the douchebag he is, but was not censured.
Honestly, Dhoti, your persecution complex is getting old.
Really now? Could you please explain what the lie was?
And anyway, even if it was a lie (which it wasn’t ) no US politician has ever acted in such a childish manner in that forum. The lunatic fringe of the republican party really are having a little tantrum about not being pandered to any more, aren’t they? It’s quite cute.
Ceefax, you’re conveniently forgetting the times that Bush was booed in Congress during speeches. And the lie was that illegal immigrants would not be riding on the back of health care, and that the reform would (snort) “create” jobs.
Please provide a single piece of evidence that the scheme would cover illegal immigrants.
They can’t… because it doesn’t exist yet. It’s all speculation, but if you read section 246 of House bill 3200…
I’m guessing you haven’t actually read section 246. Please note the use of the word “eligible” in it.
Sorry, I thought you were talking about section 242.a.2, which some claim covers illegal aliens who are family members of citizens (e.g., if they have a child in this country), but they don’t seem to notice the word “eligible” in it.
Section 246, on the other hand, expressly prohibits illegal aliens (thus making 242.a.2 even clearer).
It doesn’t specifically cover illegals, in fact, it says that they aren’t covered. The part that allows them to be covered is the fact that there are no citizenship requirements or even ID requirements needed to actually use the care. It’s a loophole that allows illegals to be covered. So, not a lie.
I believe the reality is that if you require proof of citizenship, as some states have tried for services like this, the amount of illegals goes down a tiny bit because there is not almost none in the first place, and the people who actually are citizens go down a LOT. So now you’re down asking question whether the cost of enforcement is worth it, something few people talk about. Should we spend 10*X dollars in enforcement to save X dollars of freeloaders, just because they are illegal?
Republicans (specifically Joe Wilson) tried to pass two amendments to the bill that would require verification of citizenship. There is currently no verbiage that would require anyone to prove that he or she is a citizen before obtaining subsidies. Democrats voted down both amendments. That is what Wilson was responding to.
I don’t agree with the timing or the execution of his claim that Obama lied, but he apologized for those. He hasn’t apologized for the sentiment behind the outburs, though, and he shouldn’t. It is misleading to say that illegal aliens won’t benefit from this bill. How will we stop them?
There is your single piece of evidence.
Now, please respond to the accusation that Democrats booed Bush during his addresses. Now they want to act like the chamber is a civil place and the office of the President should always be respected. Convenient.
If you don’t believe me, click on the link in my name. Stop being a hypocrite.
It’s already been stated, booing isn’t against decorum. Blatantly calling the president a liar, however, is.
Just the fact democrats can vote on breaking decorum faster than they would to support the president on healthcare, immigration reform, a surge in Afghanistan, or any number of vital issues shows how much they are just pure FAIL.
Decorum? WTF….
Or maybe you’re naive for thinking that a system that does nothing to prevent illegal immigrants from obtaining government subsidies isn’t going to be abused?
They are ILLEGALS. And you don’t think they are going to do something ILLEGAL if no one is going to try to stop them and there are no consequences? What world do you live in?
I live in a world where people whose only crime is trying to feed their children become criminals.
If by “feed their children” you mean “stole food from the shopkeeps to do so”, then yes, they ARE criminals. Do I feel for them? Of course, but stealing bread and crossing over the border illegally are both crimes, and the perpetrators of them are criminals.
So, how will you and I prove citizenship each and every time we use the future healthcare system? Should we each have to whip out our birth certificates?
Or—-will we have to put a Social Security number on the paperwork at the hospital? Wait a minute . . . don’t we already usually do that? Or am I wrong? It *has* been awhile since I was last admitted to the hospital, or switched doctors . . . but I seem to remember filling out some very, very detailed paperwork the last time I did so. I suppose in the ER it could get overlooked, in a REAL emergency . . . instead of the sniffles ERs are often treating . . . why are they doing that, I wonder? Hmmmm. I think it’s because so many people don’t have insurance. Perhaps if ERs treated only EMERGENCIES, the people with the sniffles could go to regular docs’ offices and fill out paperwork . . . which could (likely WOULD) reveal their citizenship status.
Hmmm. Am I overlooking something? It all seems so simple!
You apparently didn’t read through the comments. The proof of citizenship has nothing to do with receiving medical attention. Republicans want people to prove citizenship when they apply for federal money to pay for insurance.
Those points aside, you’re wrong…no one has to prove citizenship to receive medical treatment.
OK, again I say: APPLICATIONS to the government usually involve enough colon-scoping information-acquiring questions to prove that one is, or is not, a citizen.
funny you call it a scheme because that’s what it is.
You, like most conservatroll dick sniffers, think you’re special for insulting liberals in a hit and run, but really you’re just a fvcktrd. GTFOSTFUESADITOP.
On the contrary, I think the most childish manner of a US politician was done by Preston Brooks, in 1856 by beating Charles Sumner over the head repeatedly with his metal cane for a whole minute. Or was that the most insane manner done by a US politician…
Haha, I forgot about that. One of the more fun (funner?) lessons in history class.
Hey, they left that out when I was in school! I would have remembered!!
*pouts*
Well, yah…..
Didn’t remember that. But with the lunatic fringe, that might happen soon…..
I personally am very, very sad that this happened before the invention of television and C-Span. That would have been C-Span’s best 60 seconds EVAH.
Even so, someone managed to make a drawing of the event…maybe it was afterward when the illustrator asked eyewitnesses what happened, but still, it is a type of media!
Thank you, Ceefax. The Joe Wilson incident shows how far right the republican party is.
Because they caught Obama in a lie? What flavor is the kool aid you are drinking?
How did he do that? Just by shouting “you lie” without giving any evidence or reason why it was a lie? Is that all a gullible little twat like you needs? Seriously?
Twat? Put the mirror down.
I’m pretty sure that this is NOT the site for looking at twats with mirrors.
Oh you’re just speculuming.
Bah….lip service.
Mons Dieu!
Oops….you caught me reading….The Vulvateen Rabbit.
You know the DSM says that labial mood is an early sign of mood disturbance …
Is it a majora sign, or just minora?
I don’t know. I’m just here for the clitical thinking.
I’m thinking clitically about buying a new Volvo. *snicker*
We have to be careful–this is a pubic forum!
Enough of all the cloaca and dagger! Stop all the wombers and half truths!
That was so ovary funny, but it might fallopian deaf ears.
Hey, I’m just a vagibond.
vagibond is the stuff they use on those Japanese prostitutes who have given too many “hummerkazis”
Oh great…now it’s orange juice!
*wipes spewed beverage from monitor*
^0^
tff
No, they’re on the far right because they’re racists, and they’re racists because they’re on the far right. I think that’s what Jimmah has been trying to tell us.
I just found out yesterday that I’m a racist for opposing increased tariffs on Chinese imports. Quite a shock, I can tell you.
Huh!!?
Stuff like that can be a shocker, I’ll tell ya. I remember when I found out that I was “unpatriotic” because I protested the war in Iraq…
Oh, please — that persecution complex you’re so proud of was manufactured to keep you whipped up. Any actual criticism you received pales in comparison to your phantom abuse.
Unless, of course, an ex-President like George H.W. Bush made the rounds calling war protesters unpatriotic and terrorist sympathizers, but I don’t recall that ever happening…
I was actually agreeing with you. No, the unpatriotic comments came from Rush, Glenn, Hannity, et al…
You’re equating the (probably overblown) words of some pundits with what has been a major campaign strategy and is now unofficial Administration policy. I’m not.
When did the ADMINISTRATION say you were a racist?
The campaign played the race card at practically every opportunity during the election, and if anything, they’ve only stepped it up since assuming office.
I don’t think the idea that the Obama campaign/administration leans heavily on race is at all controversial — I thought the only debate was over whether or not they were correct in it.
Dhoti: Fair enough.
But to be fair, can you see the race argument when you see protesters carrying signs at protests portraying Obama as a monkey eating a banana, or as Hitler? I get tired of hearing people say that Obama is playing the race card, yet those same people turn the blind eye to things like that.
I’ve walked by two local rallies so far, and I’ve only seen one questionably racist sign. (The LaRouche people were in a corner at both, with their Obama = Hitler signs — which, by the way, aren’t technically racist. Stupid and in poor taste, yes, but not racist.) I certainly didn’t get a racist vibe at all. From photos of other rallies I’ve seen, I don’t get the sense that they’re substantially different.
I don’t think anyone serious is turning a blind eye to it — I’m certainly not — but I also think that painting the majority of protesters as racists, or even closet racists, is just another smear tactic by the administration and its supporters.
Put it this way — I saw, again with my own eyes, anti-Israel and anti-Jewish signs at anti-Iraq War rallies. I didn’t think that meant that the protesters were antisemitic. (Even though the minority was larger and I got more of a sense of tolerance from the crowd.)
Fair enough. I haven’t been at the protests to see any of the signs with my own eyes, only what I see in the news and Internet.
“You’re equating the (probably overblown) words of some pundits with what has been a major campaign strategy and is now unofficial Administration policy. I’m not.”
Yes you are. You haven’t answered the fundamental question Dhoti. When did the ADMINISTRATION, meaning Biden, Clinton, Polisci, Holder, Emmanuel, or even Obama himself come out and flat out say that the protesters are racist? I’ve seen the race card thrown out by BSNBC and other far left “news” stations, but not ONCE did I see the adminstration play this card. When, when, WHEN, did it happen? And Jimmy Carter isnt a viable answer. He isn’t part of the administration or even an advisor. Obama even put out a statement saying he disagrees with him. Thats the race card?
The card I see played all the time is the partisan card. This is painfully obvious when Polosci said the town hall protests were “unamerican”, but how does this equate to flat out “these people are racists”?
And when did it happen during the campaign? I’ve asked this to multiple people on the right and I have yet to get an answer without insults like “baby killer communist terroist coddler libtard kool aid sipper” being espoused. Exactly when did it happen?
How did the adminstration paint the town hall protesters as racist? I think it’s unfair and untruthful to blame biased media coverage on a guy that has nothing to do with how it’s run.
The race card is old and tired, but the partisan card exasperated.
Read it again — “unofficial Administration policy”. That’s an important word you skipped over. It means that, in unofficial conversations with supporters, officials like Axelrod are asking them to push that angle. It also means that they compel folks like Eugene Robinson, Maureen Dowd, Hank Johnson, and Chris Matthews to push the position on their behalf.
Let me put this another way: you probably think that the Bush Administration called war protesters un-American or unpatriotic or something, right? But they never released an official statement saying so — so how did it happen? (Hint: Karl Rove, while an evil genius, doesn’t possess the powers of telepathy or captivation.)
Got it?
But how do you know that? How do you KNOW that Axelrod told “journalists” like Dowd to push that angle? Where’s the proof? Where’s the source?
Infowarz? Word of mouth?
I don’t know if the Bush adminstration was behind the whole “war prosters are terrorists in disguise” fiasco, but I know Faux News was. I put the blame on obvious biased media. Bush and Rove had two wars on their hands, a faltering economy, and dropping poll numbers. I think they had more concerns on their hands than spinning around news stories.
Sorry if I’m coming off rude or condecending, but I hated when this happened during the Bush years also. That is, putting blame on the administration. I honestly think they have more pressing issues than calling protestors racist.
But if by chance I’m wrong and they are, I gotta say it’s a pretty sucky strategy for them, but it’s a brilliant strategy for the opposition if they spread (likely) false info.
Sadly, it’s not as clear as a “From: Axelrod, To: Olbermann, Re: Racism” email, though that would be awesome. Not only is it widespread and repeated, but it’s also one of the central strategies of identity politics, which we know Obama plays; that’s enough for me to making a working hypothesis, at least.
I have to nitpick, though — in any modern administration, there are *lots* of people who have absolutely nothing better to do than to spin news stories, especially if the news sucks.
But you are. And you have no proof to back up such ridiculousness as this:
Unless you HEARD someone ask them to “push that angle”? Unless you have knowledge that those columnists are being “compelled” to write something? Come on. What flavor is the Kool-Aid *you’re* drinking?
Awww, two stalkers on one thread! It’s enough to make a man feel all warm and fuzzy. Thanks, guys!
I guess I can understand where you’re coming from but I don’t agree. That’s a pretty serious accusation, so I need something more solid than what you feel to be correct. Plus we all have differ opinions on who’s playing identity politics. I see the Redumblicans playing that more (now) than the Democraps (then).
(If you haven’t figured it out yet, I’m Independent and I hate both “parties”)
I agree with your last point though. There may be an office assistant somewhere trying to put a spin on the news. Luckily we have The Colbert Report and The Daily Show.
Gotta say, I’m pretty disappointed with the “stalker” putt shot. Guess mothergoose was also a stalker.
The White House Director of Communications — maybe you’ve heard of her? — is part of the president’s senior staff and runs a not-insubstantial organization. And then there’s the whole Office of the Press Secretary. I can’t fathom how you could think that any modern administration wouldn’t make the press one of its absolute top priorities. (Perhaps getting your news exclusively from Comedy Central has something to do with that.)
Sad that Dhoti is such an arrogant prick that it thinks I would waste my time “stalking” anyone, let alone ONLINE. I come here to read, and usually, have a good time, or blow off a little steam. I just have to point out some GLARING ERRORS, that’s all. It’s part of my nature.
How’s that cognitive dissonance and narcissism coming along? Ahhhhh, just fine, I see.
…and yet here you are, Nao.
“Yo Dhoti, I’m really happy for you. I’mma gonna let you finish, but these glaring errors are the best glaring errors of all time, yo.”
(Is it “I’mma”, “I’m ma”, or just “Imma”?)
Kind of a circular argument, isn’t it? “You’re a stalker because you’re here and correcting me.”
Or is it a circumstantial ad hominem attack you’re pursuing?
One or the other.
But the Kanye/me + “glaring errors” bit was funny.
I give credit where credit is due.
No, you’re a stalker because you searched for me on a completely unrelated lol, jumped into the middle of a discussion that didn’t involve you, and reflexively went after some post in the middle of the discussion that we’d already talked more about.
(Oh, and Kn0, I didn’t mean MG as the second stalker — I mean clamboy. He’s upthread, I think. MG’s been awesome.)
D. None of the above…I’ma
I “searched for you”? Now, you’re claiming to have known my actions?! Oh, that’s hilarious!
Click the link, so you may better know your diagnosis and routes for possible treatment.
I forgot to address this bit of silliness: “jumped into a discussion” that didn’t involve me. LMAO
Perhaps you’ve mistaken this for a moderated BBS or something? It’s a bit of a free-for-all, here; apparently you didn’t notice. I have a life….so I jump in when I see something that jumps out at me, and I’m typically only reading here and there when I get a chance, or late at night after I’ve finished working.
You’re wasting an awful lot of time denying. Hmm.
I’d say goodbye, but I have a feeling I’ll be seeing you around.
Lol, racism…
Prove the lie. Go ahead. I dare you.
It’s a lie of omission. There is such a gaping loophole there for illegals to use government money for their healthcare that they might as well have a sign on the hospital saying “Bring us your poor, your weak, your illegals, and we’ll pay for them! No problem! The rich are a renewable source of income!”
That… didn’t prove it was a lie…
Nope. It suggested a loophole, which I don’t know enough to confirm or deny. Not a lie, though.
What flavor of Kool-Aid am I drinking? Purple.
My favorite.
(And yours, too, in the new fascist state we’re creating.)
I like cherry kool aid.
Ceefax….He said under his plan, illegal aliens would not receive coverage. Some laughed at him, some mumbled under their breath, and Wilson shouted “you lie”
I’m aware of at the point in the speech Wilson randomly shouted “you lie” I’m not aware of where the basis of that allegation comes from, or even if Wilson considered when to shout.
From what I heard (don’t take this with a grain of salt) is that he and other senators believe that the bill for health care has loopholes for illegal immigrants to gain access to free health care. However, as you said, that was neither the time, nor place to call Obama out on it.
Read my comment above. This was a personal issue to Wilson. He had personally tried to pass one of the two amendments that would require verification of citizenship and the Democrats rejected it. There is nothing in the bill that requires verification of citizenship, so to say that money won’t go to illegal immigrants is like saying there will never be another terrorist attack…and then doing nothing to prevent one. You just can’t say that.
It’s not just a loophole…it’s a gaping loophole.
So, he wants a “National ID Card” or somesuch thing to identify me as a US citizen? But… I thought Obama was Hitler and Stalin wrapped up in one!
You’re so right! I’m sure there are no other ways to identify illegal immigrants than to issue a National ID Card.
But wait, if it’s impossible to identify them without such a card…how do we determine who gets a National ID Card?
Fail.
So what you’re saying, is that if his ammendment passes… if I’m in a car accident and am in need of an emergency room and have no verification that I’m a legal US Citizen on me at the time, I could bleed to death waiting for treatment?
No one would be denied emergency room access. Quit being poignant. The idea would be to eliminate people from using the ER as a family physician.
Actually, it has nothing to do with the ER or access to healthcare. Just access to government money to pay for insurance.
What? Do you know anything about the debate on this issue?
It has nothing to do with getting treatment. It’s about getting government money to buy insurance. The Republicans tried to pass an amendment that would require citizenship verification before you get any government subsidies to pay for your insurance. The Democrats rejected it.
Illegal aliens can and will continue to be treated for medical emergencies…no one is saying they shouldn’t be.
I do, but wasn’t sure what Wilson wanted in the bill. I’ve still not heard any evidence that indicates that illegal aliens would be covered for health insurance.
As your argument says, if it has nothing to do with denial of treatment, and the bill states that illegals won’t be covered, then what IS the argument? Seriously, I’m not trying to be a jack@ss about it, just trying to get an understanding of what Wilson is arguing.
The problem is, the bill states that illegal aliens aren’t eligible for subsidies, but does NOTHING to prevent them from actually applying for them and receiving them. So the verbiage denying money to illegals is a joke, because we are leaving it up to them to be honest and not apply for the government subsidies. Do you see any problem with that? We are asking ILLEGAL aliens to not do something ILLEGAL that we have done NOTHING TO PREVENT. And as far as I have heard, I don’t think there are even any consequences if they do it and somehow get caught.
It’s akin to setting up a stand in the middle of the city with stacks of money on it, and then putting up a sign that says “Free money — only for residents of this town. If you are a visitor, you aren’t allowed to take any.” And then we’ll just trust all the visitors to follow the rule.
@Parks: If that is indeed the case, then yes; I would agree with you. Thanks for clarifying that.
Sorry about the sarcasm earlier. I was getting worked up over some things other people said. Sarcasm is annoying…I need to try to avoid it for the sake of having a productive conversation.
Dinosaur Kazaam.
@parks: no sweat
EVERY. SINGLE. THING.
I’ve ever applied for in or near the government has asked for a Social Security number.
To get a Social Security number, one has to produce a birth certificate.
Unless illegal aliens acquire one of those illegally, how can they fill out paperwork applying for a government subsidy and succeed in getting it?
LOTS of illegal immigrants use stolen SSNs. In fact, I believe that’s basically one of the requirements for being a successful illegal alien. I think they teach it to them in Illegal Alien 101.
Oh, OK.
So, you’re saying that the law s/b enforced, right? I can go along with making someone who’s doing something illegal stop, or be punished.
But let me get this straight:
People want to prevent a program that could help millions of Americans, just so the lawbreakers can’t have access to that help?
Bad case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Let’s get some clean bathwater, mmmkay?
I think most of us are against scrapping a system that works for 100′s of millions of americans in order to cover 30 million americans. I also think we object to the fact that a good portion of those 30 million uncovered americans choose not to pay to be covered and could also be covered under other programs like CHIPS
LIAR!
No, j/k. But I don’t have time to address all the points you make. I should go….but, I disagree that:
1) It’s only 30 million.
2) They’re going to completely scrap the system we have.
3) That those people who aren’t covered can be covered another way–I’d say only a few of them can, but I’m not sure of the exact numbers.
I’d like to pop back in here and ask a question. How many Americans can we add to that 30 million if we include people who are forced to pay outrageous insurance prices and/or have really lousy coverage that make their insurance little more than a technicality?
I will agree that it’s more than 30 mil. I think it’s 40. But most of those 40 mil have access to health insurance (through an employer, spouse, Medicaid or other government program) and they just aren’t interested, or they can afford to buy individual medical insurance or pay medical bills (because 10 million of them make over 250k a year).
The number of people who can’t afford insurance or don’t have access to it is estimated to be around 10 million. Considering 85% of Americans (historically) will pay for insurance when it’s mandated (using car insurance as the example), I think we are doing pretty good right now.
I knew someone was going to say that . . .
OK, I STILL disagree with your math. I think it’s true that SOME (not most) of those have access to insurance, and don’t have it, for numerous reasons, including being able to pay and just not wanting to.
Let’s say, though, your math is correct. 10 million people who don’t have access to insurance any other way and cannot afford it: Let’s help those people, because the costs are dragging us ALL down and driving up costs for others! Your numbers are GOOD NEWS. Fewer people to help!
Now, we just have to figure out the best way to do it. Either loosen the standards for Medicaid, so that they can join those covered people, or provide another plan that the government subsidizes . . . something.
Finally, somebody provides evidence.
Taking that into account, sure, Wilson’s outburst was justified due to his frustration over the missing clause. HOWEVER, it doesn’t justify his behavior during a televised speech. Booing is one thing, but to go as far as to literally scream above the boos is not only unprofessional, but political suicide. I wouldn’t want a person who acts like a baby to represent me.
Agreed. Actually, Wilson is my representative. I don’t like him (for better reasons than the booing). The guy who’s running against him is an idiot, though, so I’ll probably refrain from voting. Or write in someone.
But for the record, most people here think it was really stupid for Wilson to yell out during the speech. No matter how the Democrats acted during Bush’s speeches. I have a friend who works in his office and he said (off the record) that Wilson actually felt humiliated immediately afterward. I think the outburst was a spur of the moment thing, and he really regretted it. As he should.
parks, I want to reply to your comment that starts “The problem is, the bill states that illegal aliens aren’t eligible for subsidies, but does NOTHING to prevent them from actually applying for them and receiving them.”, but there is no reply button on that post (perhaps too deeply nested?). Anyway, first, let me just say that Obama wasn’t lying. The bill specifically states that illegal immigrants are not allowed to get the subsidy. The problem of enforcement is one that should be addressed, and I will do that shortly, but because Obama wasn’t lying, Wilson’s comments were entirely inappropriate. The democrats mumbling and groaning during Bush’s speech was a far cry from standing up and calling him a liar to his face…which they could have done literally hundreds of times during the run up to the iraq war. Now, I don’t think he should have been censured or face any sort of legal consequences, but he definitely has earned my douchebag of the year award, and I hope his constituents will take his actions into consideration and ask themselves if they really want THAT douchebag representing them as opposed to the douchebag running against him…who at least might be civil in his douchebaggery (man that word is fun). Now as for the enforcement issue. First, as stated before, the bill does clearly state in several places that undocumented aliens are not eligible, but how legal status will be confirmed is not spelled out clearly in the bill. The problem with the republican proposals was that they were draconic. The amount of money it would cost to actually put those measures in place, extra employees, more mail, more verification, etc. is greater than the amount of money that will be fraudulently taken out of the system by illegal aliens who are actually willing to take that risk and expose their presence like that and risk jail time. So basically, it is cheaper to just suck down the fraud than to spend millions of dollars trying to prevent it. Illegal aliens want to remain anonymous. They won’t want to give the information required to get the subsidy because it will make it easier for the govt. to find them AND, when they are found, they will go to jail for fraud and their family will get sent back to wherever they came from. Additional screenings and checks for legal status cost money…more money than we will lose to the small fraction of illegal aliens who are desperate enough to try to get the subsidy illegally. This, btw, doesn’t include the additional inconvenience to all the people who are legal who want to get the insurance. Second, and this point is perhaps somewhat weak, but it is and always has been standard practice to leave finding illegal aliens to the professionals. Businesses are not required to confirm legal status before hiring a worker. Banks are not required to do it before opening an account. Public Schools are not required to confirm legal status either. This is because none of these offices are equipped to properly determine legal status. (There are many different types of VISAS…many forged VISAS, many different types of legal status.) It is complicated, and we have an entire part of our law enforcement agencies dedicated to finding illegal aliens and making sure we don’t have any huddled masses in our country being tired and poor. Should we fund them better? Maybe. But, to make the health insurance do what NO OTHER govt. institution must do before providing benefits is just ridiculous. It is not their job, and because of the cost, it shouldn’t be. I could see a proposal that forwards suspect paperwork to INS(I think that is who hunts down illegal aliens…too lazy to look it up) for investigation as reasonable, but until they are determined to be illegal by the INS and deported, they should be presumed to be legal if they can provide all the information necessary. Speaking of which…what kind of information do you think you will need to provide in order to get the insurance benefit? It will probably be linked to your social security number. That is the most common number the federal govt. uses to identify people. Perhaps legal aliens will need an A-number for identification. Obviously though, you will have to identify yourself in a way the federal govt. recognizes…which rules out your state driver’s license (which is about the only form of identification illegal aliens can easily obtain..and that only in California afaik). Giving a false social security number would be quickly realized once the legal owner of that number tried to collect his insurance subsidy, is told somebody is already collecting it, proves his identity, and wow..now the govt. knows of a criminal illegal alien and where he goes to pick up his check. So, for me, (and I do really despise illegal aliens. My wife and I did paperwork for 3 years to get her a permanent residency card…and we were married already and it pisses me off when people talk of giving amnesty to all the people who just came in illegally..because we came in the freaking hard way and now the people that did it the easy way are getting a free legal status? F that!), I actually hope lots of illegal aliens will try to claim subsidies. It will make it easier for us to find them AND it will allows to throw them in jail instead of just sending them back home because the defrauded the U.S. govt.
So its great to say enforcement enforcement enforcement, but, at some point, the squeeze isn’t worth the juice. You put 2 million dollars into enforcement and save the govt. 1 milions dollars in reduced fraud…you are still down 1 million dollars either way.
Long Post of the Day Winner!!!!!!!!!!!
While they don’t have to officially confirm it, they do have to have a completed I-9 form on file for you.
The government actually HAS a quick and easy system set up (well, according to them — not an employer, so I’ve never tried it!) to verify eligibility to work: E-verify You’re currently only required to use it if you’re a government contractor, though.
We use it at my company. It’s not foolproof by any means….anecdote alert here: two weeks ago we had a guy come in to E-Verify and he was asked if he was a resident. He said no, so they ran him as a citizen. Later that day he came back in to ask if they needed a copy of “this ID card”, which happened to be his residency card. Apparently he misunderstood the question from earlier, and actually WAS a resident in the process of getting his citizenship. His residency card was about to expire, so he had no choice but to get a citizenship card if he wanted to stay legally. So our clerk ran his information again, and found out that he was both a citizen AND a resident, which shouldn’t be possible. We made sure we covered ourselves as far as letting the government know what had happened, but it never should have gone through in the first place.
I just wonder how many times that’s happened, where someone has essentially a dual registry like that.
And to the best of my knowledge, E-Verify isn’t difficult, but it is a time-consuming pain in the ass.
Love your logic. Love your facts. Love your screen name! If I wasn’t married, I would flirt with you
I’d like you to meet my friend. His name is “Paragraph.”
I disagree with that, since reforms have been asked for by the Republican party and have been shot down by the Dems, who overwhelmingly get the illegal vote every election.
Wait, how are the illegals voting if they’re not citizens?
It’s just another way of saying Republicans are douchenozzles. Besides, I thought it was the Democrats that enlisted the help of the illegals?
We don’t require ID to vote. There have been several lawmakers who have asked for their to be at LEAST ID checks to vote, but it keeps getting shot down. You don’t have to prove residency at all unless you’re doing something meaningful, like buying beer or something.
In my state, we do have to provide ID in order to register to vote. But not on the actual date of voting. To receive a ballot, we have to tell the folks at the desk our street address, and then our actual name. I assume if it didn’t match, we would be refused?
Now, this, this I have to disagree with sachet. In my state I had to provide ID to register and then I brought my ID with me on the day of voting just in case, which I showed anyway because my address had changed. In Texas at least, or at least in my county, you have to provide proof of ID and residency in order to get your registration card.
I read most of that and can’t remember most of it, but I do get your main point. I think it depends on the ratio though. If your numbers at the end, for instance, were probable, then we lose $1 million anyway, correct? Well, I would rather lose that money enforcing the law than lose it in fraud, wouldn’t you? Now, if it was going to cost 10 times more to enforce the law than it would to just put up with fraud, I could see someone making a case for not enforcing based on the cost-benefit ratio.
But keep in mind…this is about more than just the money. It’s about justice…not letting people who are here illegally take advantage of us more than they already do.
Also, if government contractors have to use systems to verify citizenship of their workers, why would government agencies not be held to the same standards for the people they are spending time and money on? That just doesn’t make sense to me.
I haven’t even finished reading, yet (nor may I, it’s getting LATE), but I wanted to reply to:
Yes, they are.
Welcome to the world of post-September 11th. Homeland Security and all that.
Bank of America doesn’t. I live in an area with lots of illegal immigrants and they ADVERTISE that you can open a bank account without a SSN. Sorry.
Well, that’s interesting. I went to open a money market account at US Bank last year, and they had to verify my citizenship, and said it had to do with the Office of Homeland Security and terrorism. I didn’t think that banks could get around that one.
You on a list somewhere, Naoyusimi?
I don’t know, I was with my daughter recently when she opened an account at Bank of America, and they did in fact ask for her ID and Social Security number.
Diss, I think the exclusion only works if you’re only opening a checking account (no credit or debit cards, no savings accounts, etc.) and then only in certain areas with high illegal populations (I think it’s a confluence of federal and state regulations, and I also think there’s already a procedure in place if you’re here legally.)
If it’s a personal issue, he should have kept it personal. How many people watching knew what he had done? I didn’t. It makes more sense but doesn’t excuse the outburst.
I agree with you completely. It doesn’t excuse it, but it explains it. The Democrats (minus Obama) are trying to make it into a race thing (which it’s not), and they are pretending like this is the first time anyone has disrespected the President during a speech to Congress (which it’s not). It’s hypocritical, and honestly, I think what they are doing now is worse than Wilson’s outburst. He distracted the country for a split second. They have been distracting everyone for over a week now. It’s pure politics.
Yeah, Democrats tend to be opportunistic like that…
And also Republicans. It is the nature of the political beast, after all!
*rawr*
The Democrats have to do their dirty work themselves to pounce on competitors. The Republicans have talk show hosts to handle that for them.
That being said, I’ve never seen a group of people turn on their own like the Democrats, I will say that.
Have you never watched MSNBC?
Thanks flip!! We’ll start this off right!!!! He IS lying… the ultimate douchebaggery is believing anything a politician says when they are known and proven liars. Wilson isn’t one of those sheeple and will be re-elected while the liar-in-chief won’t. Perhaps he should have thrown a shoe!!!
This would be coming from the mouth of Joe “Yes I was an immigration attorney” Wilson… oh… that’s right… I was a REAL ESTATE ATTORNEY AND THERE IS NO RECORD OF ME EVER PRACTICING IMMIGRATION LAW…
Congratulations, MG — you’ve now vetted Joe Wilson more thoroughly than the mainstream media vetted Obama.
hehe.
Bah-Zing!
Right, so your basis for this is that he must have been lying because you don’t trust Obama, and you don’t trust Obama because he lies and you know they are lies because you don’t trust Obama.
People like Wilson are the shame of the GOP and the majority of people, in both the country and in the senate, both in the Republican and Democrat party are sick of the idiocy of people like him.
No, I don’t trust politicians who grease their pockets with tax payer money. Ceefax obviously doesn’t have a clue or he/she wouldn’t have asked. It’s ok, we will educate you.
You don’t trust politicians, so when a politician says Obama is lying, you believe him.
Thanks for clearing that up.
…but you believe Joe Wilson… a politician… interesting.
Joe Wilson…also a politician, who also greases his pockets with tax payer money.
You just invalidated your own argument. Congrats.
But all politician’s do that. So therefore how can you trust Wilson? You just completely proved and then f’d your own argument.
Once again, thank you Ceefax. We could be allies in the near future, Voice of Reason, you made a logical fallacy-begging the question. Therefore, you are not the voice of reason
Aww, cute! Little allies in idiocy!
oops, thought you meant “Voice of Reason” for some reason… sorry :”(
It’s not that he called Obama out… it’s HOW he did it… I have NO PROBLEM with him going on the air of any network and calling Obama a liar, as long as he has the EVIDENCE to back it up; but, to sit there and yell “You lie” during a speech to a joint session of Congress (and yes, before you get started, the Dems did some pretty nasty things to W), had a certain air of douchebaggery to it.
I’m still waiting to see the evidence that Illegal Aliens will be granted health insurance coverage…
On the other hand… It took real guts for Kanye to pull the microphone away from a nineteen-year-old girl having a wonderful moment on stage. I’d like to see him try to pull that crap on… say… Metallica…
Metallica would just sue him, and piss off a bunch of fans for NOT hitting him.
Ay Dios wins!
*snerk*
Now THAT’s funny!!!!
Someone on ROFLrazzi was wishing that Pink had won the award, because they reckoned there would have an award – KW’s face collision!
I think I’dve paid to see that!
Me too!
That would have been epic…
That was me.. Paws…
You yanks are all douchebags. You cant even spell your own president’s name!!!
O’bama???
OBAMA
idiots.
It’s from his Irish ancestry, you see as well as being born in Kenya, Indonesia, Africa and the moon he was also born in Cork to Seamus and Adele O’Bama.
And that’s not even an Irish name.
From the lakes if Killarney to old Connemara, there’s no one as Irish as Barack O’Bama.
TY pittypat. I needed to LOL today! ^_^
South Dublin, Kenya.
I thought he was born on Krypton?
At least that’s what the NEW birth certificate that Orly Taits came up with says…
It was there he picked up the communist, catholic and liberal parts of his Islamic/Nazi/Communist/Pacifist/Radical Black Christian Church/Liberal/Socialist/Catholic/Atheist persona.
Doesn’t matter where he was born, his mother was a U.S. citizen, so he’s a citizen.
T’ be sure, and Oi was thinkin’ th’ exact same t’ing!
Here in the U.S. the white house has a special committee (funded by tax payers of course) that scours the interwebs looking for negative publicity on the prez. We spell his holy name incorrectly on purpose.
Make sure you don’t think his name either, unless you have a bacofoil hat. Storebrand doesn’t work any more, the latest models of the black helicopters can see through them now, it has to be Bacofoil.
Dude that really isn’t a crazy theory. I thought this was common knowledge.
He’s a douche for yelling out in a joint session of congress. Oh, and Obama wasn’t lying so he also proved what an ignorant jackass he is.
No, Wilson became the first sitting congressman in the history of the United States of America to insult the President of the USA before the entire sitting Congress and the entire nation. Something the Conservatives can be proud of in their immoral superiority.
The cake is a lie!
And pie is the truth!
Lying cake > truthy pie.
Aperture science > political douchebaggery
We do what we must, because we can. For the good of all of us, except the ones who will be dead after being put on a death panel.
*gasp* So THAT’S why Glados wants us to euthanise the Weighted Companion Cube!
Never mind that. The pie…….THE PIE!!!!!
And the Weighted Companion Cube died, so it couldn’t come to the party, you murderer!!
Remember: It died for your sins.
But is it > pi????
*needs sleep… badly…*
At least Wilson really did let Obama finish.
Unlike that guy I blew in the parking lot last night. I didn’t let him finish.
A president calling a joint session of congress to promote his personal political agenda to the American people, then lying about, not that is a douchebag!!!
Because Bush never did that when trying to start a war in Iraq…
Always back to Mr. Bush… it wasn’t a war… we won… Sadam was developing WMD’s (evidence was found)…. Sadam also intentionally made it seem he had them as a deterrent for Iran… Sadam violated numerous treaties form the 1st gulf “war” … we have an all volunteer military … Sadam was warned and given an ultimatum … it was a multinational effort … and, you gonna love this, the democratic majority in the congress voted and approved the invasion. Poor Bush, the victim of a multi-million dollar political smear campaign.
You’re right… he didn’t lie about anything. That whole Yellow Cake Uranium thing… the “Evidence” that he was preparing to use WMD’s (that NO ONE EVER FOUND)… sold that Bill of Goods to Congress… and had such a MASSIVE Coalition of the Willing (have you ever seen the countries that were among the “willing”?)…
Mothergoose, how DARE you argue with Voice of Reason! I mean, his name OBVIOUSLY represents his character, so why even bother providing a rebuttal? His voice is chock full of reason, after all! Even though his statement is mostly subjective and full of ellipses, he totally constructed it with reasoning power vocally!
Seriously, people these days are so rude!
Smartz…Winner winner chicked dinner!
Oh boy! Dinner that is chicked! When may receive this feast that will be bountiful to dine with attractive women?
you know the d isnt even near the n either..proofreading?!!?..bah!!!! its the internet it all counts and there are no letter grades! lets try again:
winner winner CHICKEN dinner! LOL
kind of like not noticing how close the “t” and “g” are to each other when signing off on a letter with “regards”…
great mothergoose!, now I am assured that will happen! not intentionally, of course, but becuase the faux pas is now in my brain…
Glad to help!!
Smartz… how could i have been so blind!!!
Sorry if the military doesn’t specifically tell you about their secret operations. It was declassified just over a year ago.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25546334/
Thanks. Learn something new every day.
So Iraq had the easy stuff (the equivalent of cleaned Uranium ore), yet no viable centrifuge program, no enriched uranium, no nothing and that is the “proof” of WMDs?
That’s not even proof of a WMD program – much less the functional WMDs Cheney said they had.
lol…A) natural uranium is NOT even CLOSE to a WMD. Only highly enriched uranium can be used in a nuclear weapon. I am fairly certain this is done by bombarding the uranium with neutrons
B) reading the entire article, and not just the headline, is sometimes useful. “Later, U.N. inspectors documented and safeguarded the yellowcake, which had been stored in aging drums and containers since before the 1991 Gulf War. There was no evidence of any yellowcake dating from after 1991, the official said.”
In other words, the uranium was from before 1991. The U.N. and the U.S. KNEW it existed and it was being safeguarded! We knew for a FACT he wasn’t using it to make weapons. In fact, our invasion was the biggest threat of that uranium falling into terrorist hands. It was being safely guarded until we created chaos in Iraq. Then people started carting it away to use the barrels for drinking water…yes…drinking water…read the article! JUST READ THE ARTICLE FFS.
C) In fact, the most appropriate use for natural un-enriched uranium is in power generation…which is why canada bought the natural uranium from the new govt. of iraq. READ THE ARTICLE…and it shows, yet again, that saddam hussein had no WMDs and that conservatives either willfully lie, or can’t bother to read the article that they themselves link to before claiming what it says supports their delusion.
You win so much! Knowing is quite definitely half the battle!
Seriously, only the most delusional conservative still buys that whole WMD thing in Iraq now. Voice of Reason didn’t drink the koolaid, he’s drowning in it.
Wow, has “Drinking the koolaid” become a vernacular now? That’s kinda weird, but I guess embracing a term of hate makes it neutral.
It’s definitely working for both sides now.
That’s really funny because I recently read an article about how current events leads to the inception of new terminology into mainstream society. That’s principles in action for ya!
It’s all meme to me!
What a twist…. So we did find this elusive yellow cake that, although commonly used for nuclear power but, COULD be converted and used for WMD. kk, I got it. So are you saying that Sadam wasn’t developing the tech to convert his stockpiles of yellow cake into WMD, or are you saying we just didn’t find evidence? Iran is, North Korea is, but not Mr. Nice Sadam in Iraq. You see, when your a leader and millions of lives are at stake, its kinda good to be a bit careful. Your out of your league and yes, of course I read the entire article as well as many other article on the subject. I’m just wish we could’ve gotten that super deal on the yellow cake, be nice to get some more nuclear power around here. Maybe the economy would recover faster if we weren’t paying 4 times too much $$ for our electricity.
We agree about nuclear power, and it’s even “low carbon”.
Yeah, but the waste will haunt the planet for 10,000 years.
Oh, never mind, we’ll all be dead, then, right?!
As a point of actual fact, a nuclear power station releases less radioactivity per unit time (yes including high-level waste) than a coal-fired power station with the same output.
That does not address what to do with it.
What radioactive waste does a coal-fired station leave behind? Are we burying it in Yucca Mtn?
Residual radioactivity in soot, ash, and indeed flue and coolant discharges.
What you do with it, or how mixed in with other stuff it is doesn’t change the fact that coal-fired power stations emit more bequerels per MW per year than nuclear ones do.
I, for one, am sick and tired of people who say stuff like “no level of radioactivity is acceptable” (there was one in my Sunday paper, complaining about a release of water from showers at a local nuclear station), without detailing what they propose to replace the planet and the Sun with.
I, for one, would never say that, because I know that the ground emits some radioactivity – lots of things do. However, it seems to me your answer was carefully worded.
How do the radiation emissions compare between spent nuclear station fuel and a coal station’s soot and ash (which are in themselves a pollutant of another kind, one which is another whole discussion)?
I don’t recall there being a need to bury soot from coal X number of miles underground. From the above article:
“The Department of Energy (DOE) estimates that it has over 100 million U.S. gallons of highly radioactive waste and 2,500 metric tons (2,800 short tons) of spent fuel from the production of nuclear weapons and from research activities in temporary storage.”
That’s *highly* radioactive. We’re not talking background radiation, here.
Hundreds of thousands of years.
To become safe.
Hmmm. Does it not make you pause? At all?
It might do, if I didn’t think they’re over-estimating their volumes more than somewhat. All the UK’s high level waste (liquid and solid, inc spent fuel after reprocessing) would fit into a 7 feet by six feet by 3 feet cube. Whether the weight is more like feathers or lead is irrelevant.
Stop talking about cake! I’m hungry enough as it is!!
don’t worry. it’s a lie anyway.
So… what you’re saying is… You don’t think the Iraqis had a right to have pound cake?
You’re arguing in hypotheticals and deflecting the answers. Cut it out or go away.
If any of you think for even a quick second that any politician can be trusted you should consider a serious reality check. Also, if you believe that ANY politician enters the political world for any reason other than to promote their own personal agenda, whatever it may be, consider you nativete firmly in place. Consider how few truly altruistic people have existed in the history of this country. Politics is about self-promotion and power, not altruism.
Yeah. We know. So?
“it wasn’t a war… we won”
`
Interesting definition of the word “war”.
Kind of like calling hunting a “sport”… it’d be more “sporting” if either the hunted knew it was playing, or if it was equally armed…
LMAO! I now have a vision of my uncle running through the woods trying to get away from an irate doe.
Hunting for “sport” is probably the most vile thing humanity has ever done. If you really derive joy from killing defenseless animals, you need help.
P.S. I you actually hunt for meat, even if you don’t really need to, I have no problem with that. Wild-caught meat always tastes better.
What exactly do you think hunting is? It’s not like people just leave carcasses scattered all over the fruited plains. Every hunter I know takes the kill and has it processed, because there is nothing better than deer jerky or summer sausage with jalapeno and cheddar……*drool*
Wait, where were we?
Oh yeah, and leaving dead animals scattered about scares off the deer for next year. Who exactly do you know who hunts for sport and doesn’t use what they kill?
Not only that, but most states now (at least the ones I’ve lived in) have a lottery during hunting season. They don’t really want people going out willy nilly and just shooting up the landscape. I’ve never really been into hunting, but I do enjoy the fruits of other people’s endeavors to provide venison sausage!
We’ve got buck and doe limits during deer season over here. The vary from county to county, and there are always poachers, but the poaching I’ve seen never results in deer carcasses just left lying around. No one wants a Ranger or Warden knocking on your door! Even the poachers process what they get.
deer jerky… *droooool*
deer jerky and fresh caught salmon are the only 2 reasons i miss being with my ex-fiance. so froo, if you love me, you should send me deer jerky.
*bats eyelashes*
I do love you, Shortright, but my husband might not, LOL. He didn’t even want to give any summer sausage to his own SISTER last year!!
I’ll try to wrench some away from him for you
I have an uncle who “hunts for sport”… I don’t know much about the hunter culture. I apologize if I inadvertently insulted anyone.
No problem, No1. If your uncle is leaving deer carcasses lying around, he’s missing out on some SERIOUSLY good stuff! Also, he should know that he’s scaring off future deer.
The “hunter culture” is a lot better to the environment than most people realize. Hunters (for the most part) realize that deer and other animals aren’t exactly plentiful, especially considering the amount of urban development encroaching everywhere. It’s different where they have rigid hunting laws and deer are overwhelming the cities, but that’s not for this post
Anyway, if you overhunt the deer, they go away. So you have to go further and further to get your deer, which costs you more money (in gas and deer leases) and makes it more inconvenient. I haven’t known a hunter yet who doesn’t value what he’s got (in his own special way) and does his best to keep that resource going.
My mother (the greenie) would donate to Ducks Unlimited, because that hunter group does a huge amount of work to support natural waterways. So this non-hunter gets it. And I used to like the ‘bambi-burger’ that my father would send home with me after visits!
I don’t know your uncle, but I’m going to take a flyer here and define “hunts for sport”: Tells his wife he’s going deer hunting with his buddies; takes rifle, etc, to buddy’s cabin; spends 95% of weekend hanging around drinking beer, farting, and watching football with buddies, 5% wandering through hunting area loudly talking so he doesn’t have to bother with actually killing anything, then goes home and tells his wife he didn’t have any luck, but he had a good time anyway.
So long as he stays off of the roads and away from his gun while he’s drinking, I’m OK with that. It’s the shooting-while-drunk crowd that gets me really, really nervous.
I’m agreed with you there.
He should have yelled ” The Emporer has no clothes” instead.
Ok, I have to admit that would have been better!
He’s a politician… that’s kinda what they DO…
Can anyone provide links that prove Obama has lied about his healthcare plan & whether or not it will support illegal immigrants?
Kraas, sorry, there’s no specific info available to the public at this time. Bills and laws are written in secret now in the U.S. then presented at the last minute so the congress does not have time to thoroughly examine them or weigh the effects. The dems are threatened to be ousted from the party if they do not sheepishly go along.
So in other words, no. There’s no evidence whatsoever.
Yes there is… there is a long history of support for illegal aliens by this particular political party. Illegal aliens currently receive free health care as do many Americans. In addition, ideas of the proposed bill have been leaked by their own “people”
You’ve said yourself, there’s no actual evidence that the scheme will cover illegal immigrants. The entire basis is “I don’t like Obama, Obama said it, therefore it’s a lie.”
VOR: This is ACTUAL EVIDENCE:
The House bill, H.R. 3200, excludes anyone who is not a legal resident of the United States from coverage of extended insurance provisions. Section 246 reads, “Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.”
Too bad section 246 doesn’t exist… I an all reality the proof is here… Section 148 of House Bill H.R. 3200 reads “your a douchebag if you believe everything just cause it’s posted on the interwebz”
haha, JK, I found it, this is what it really says “Sec. 246. No Federal payment for undocumented aliens.” that’s really all it says, basically what that means is: illegal aliens will still receive health care, the fed just wont pay for it, the will stick the doctors and hospitals with the bill.
But your argument (and Joe Wilson’s) is that Illegals will recieve health insurance… the Bill doesn’t say that ANYWHERE
Ok, so build a highway, and advertise that there will be no police enforcement on it. But that the speed limit is 65. How fast do you think traffic will go?
I’ve no idea how fast traffic would go in the USA, but in the UK it would settle at a safe speed for the conditions. It might be more than 65, or it might be less; that would depend on the road layout and the volume of traffic it carried.
You mean 6500?
I don’t like hypotheticals, they’re just so…unrealistic.
But what is reality? Really, what is it?
*BOOM*
I see what you did there. But let me ask you this, assuming that was your only beef with his plan (if you can speak in hypothetical situations, so can I LOL), would you still be against it? Would you trash the whole thing to keep the illegal immigrants from getting health care even if meant keeping the people who really need or deserve it from getting it? That’s what I keep hearing from the right. Trash any kind of support for the needy because someone is gonna abuse it. Yeah, you really freaking showed them, didn’t you? It doesn’t matter what kind of program you make, someone is ALWAYS gonna abuse it.
And before we go into the “charity should be helping the people” well charities get abused all the time. You can’t punish the good people just to make sure you get the bad people.
Dumbass… I am quoting directly from the bill PDF as posted by Congress… but thanks for going the name-calling route to support your “argument”.
I love how the name calling gets answered by… name calling, bravo. Pot meet kettle, kettle meet pot.
*Is humiliated*
Hello pot, my name is kettle…
So, even if provision is made in this Bill, it will simply formalise the existing actual practice. Your words.
THAT’S your evidence? That’s nothing more than hearsay. Your honor, I demand this case be dismissed!
Unless of course you actually TRY to look for info on them. You seem to forget that was what Bush did, Obama removed all those constraints shortly after taking office you dumb ass.
I already did. Read through my comments at the top of the page.
Wilson had an moment of passion and forgot to control his mouth. It’s the same sort of thing I’d do, so I just laugh. But I think it’s obnoxious how long this “scandal” has carried on…. good grief, you’re all acting like a bunch of children on the playground, still bickering over some long dead insult.
Kanye is a total idiot and that was NOT a moment of passion. He premeditated that act of douchebaggery – and, anyway, I could be wrong, but I don’t remember Wilson getting up on stage and taking the mic from Obama. Could just be my mind’s going, but I’m pretty sure Wilson stayed in his seat.
I’d like to think that politicians during a presidential address would be held to a higher standard than singers at an MTV award, but I understand that to your average GOP supporter the latter is far more important.
elowel…. you think that policitains should be held to a higher standard! Whever have you been the last 30 years?
The thing is politicians are expected to save face when in public. Especially politicians who are elected, because they are the result of a popular vote by their citizens. What Wilson did was not only disrespectful to the GOP and Congress in general, but he made South Carolina people seem like loud-mouth, rude and disagreeable as a whole. Sure, it is a fallacy to assume that the part represents the whole, but happens all the time. I’d be utterly embarrassed and regret electing a man who couldn’t hold his temper while a man who represents the ENTIRE COUNTRY is giving an important speech on live television.
I forgot to add that even though Kayne West may be popular as a celebrity, his “standard” is pretty low on the importance meter to begin with. Yea, what he did is extremely rude, but no one voted for him to represent their state. I didn’t even know what he did even occurred until now because I don’t watch TV that often anymore, and it wasn’t as important an event such as the President speaking in front of his fellow politicians and citizens about a topic that could very well change how America works.
Bravo Smartz, well put.
…for the 112th time…….I’m a bit put off about the number of times he’s had to sell this thing. I’m tired of hearing about it.
Ceefax… exposing this fraud to the American people is the most important thing. Wilson is considered a hero, the dems only recourse is to insult him. He will be re-elected. The prez will not. The end.
Wilson is the one acting like an ape, throwing insults around and being disowned by his own party.
How about exposing the fraud which means a non-competitive cabal of insurance companies is massively over-charging US people and small businesses for healthcare, making them spend double what other countries spend on healthcare, then not even covering the whole of the population and making the taxpayer pick up the tab for others anyway? The previous administration seemed pretty easy going about that fraud, didn’t they. But then a large number of them ended up in cushy positions in the healthcare and phama industries when they left office, so that’s not surprising.
Yes, there’s corruption in the system. But forming a government option isn’t the correct course of action. What we _could_ do, and it’s probably a stretch, is actually call them out on current anti-trust laws.
I live somewhere with a national healthcare system and I’m very happy with it. When my grandmother was diagnosed with terminal cancer, we went and got a private consultation and we were told by the private hospital exactly the same as the NHS doctor told us – that the cancer was inoperable and that she wouldn’t survive an operation to remove it. She was treated well and kept comfortable until the day she passed away.
You may not like the idea, but I’m afraid nationalised healthcare is inevitable for the US and once it’s there no party who wants to undo it will have any chance at all of being elected.
Ever read Article 1, section 8 of the Constitution? How about the 10th Amendment?
Yep, and neither prohibit providing healthcare for everyone.
Another advocate of the “negative rights” of the Constitution. The Constitution is a limit on what the government can do TO you, not a blueprint of what it should do FOR you…
Actually, according to the 6th Amendment, the government has to give you a speedy trial if you want one, and provide you with counsel if you do not have one.
I can recommend a good optometrist for you. Though I think mental counseling would be better.
Article 1 specifies the things the Federal Govt is to do, and enumerates them. Look up enumerate.
The 10th Amendment specifies that anything not in the Constitution is for the states to do.
Keep in mind I have no problem with health care reform, or even some sort of Govt run. But by the states, and not the Federal Govt. Then it would be legal, and not put one big bureaucracy in charge.
So then people move to the states with the kickass coverage while the poor states just continue to die. I don’t know about that.
I wonder how your story would differ if your grandmother had decided she’d rather take the risk and have the operation. Would she have even been permitted to have an NHS-funded second opinion? How long would it have taken? And even if that doctor was willing, is there anyone to appeal to? Or is the answer simply “sorry, ma’am, that treatment exceeds your rating on the quality-of-life scale, therefore your cancer is terminal?”
I’m so glad you see fit to lecture us on what’s “inevitable”, but somehow I think you wouldn’t be so charitable if, for example, the US declared that European missile defense was “inevitable” too.
To be perfectly fair, Dhoti, you’re going to run into the same issue with most insurance companies; not to mention that it could be difficult or impossible to convince a surgeon to try it. They don’t so much like it when the patient dies on the table, ya know.
True enough, but at least there’s a chance — or, maybe more correctly, people to appeal to. (Like the guy Obama mentioned in his speech who he implied died because his coverage was rescinded: he actually appealed to the Illinois AG, was reinstated, received an experimental stem cell therapy, and died four years later.)
I just wonder, when an NHS doctor tells you a condition is terminal, where that tends to fall on the can’t treat vs. won’t treat spectrum, and how that compares to diagnoses in the States.
And I would agree that’s a good question.
We need to break up the insurance state monopolies by allowing interstate health ins, (like car ins) in addition to lowering the overall cost of health care by lowering doctors malpractice insurance with “tort” reform that will stop frivolous lawsuits. I will not buy health insurance because I do not need it. If I get sick, I pay cash, if i get really sick (highly unlikely) I pay more cash. If insurance companies are making so much money, why did AIG need a bailout?
Pay cash? Where do you go to get medical care? I can’t think of a doctor, dentist or hospital that would give me the time of day without an insurance card. It’s all a big racket, providers won’t do anything without insurance, insurance companies only deal with certain doctors. I like the interstate competition but when a insurance CEO gets compensation that amounts to $1 dollar for every $1000 in revenue, something is very wrong.
Many people over spend more on their cars than what they spend on health care. $300 will get you to see a good doctor around here. Plus maybe $200 more (at most ) if you need some overpriced drugs. This is what credit cards/savings are for. DO NOT tell me to spend $1000 per year to save $300-$500 every few years on a doctors visit. This will make me angry.
Then you should love Max Baucus’ plan…
Insurance companies only want to insure people who aren’t likely to need it. That’s how the market works. The people who they don’t want to insure, the ones it will cost the most to treat, they leave behind for the state to deal with. There is no way of solving this problem, it’s a fact of capitalism and that is why you can’t apply capitalist principles to something that isn’t optional.
These are not things that can be fixed with legislation, price-fixing, monopolies and the uninsurable are integral parts of private healthcare.
That makes sense. Insurance companies take on RISK. If the person is already sick, that’s not risk. That’s someone trying to get out of paying their own medical bills. I’m healthy right now, so I got medical insurance to help me if one day my health goes south. Getting insurance when you’re sick is like trying to buy car insurance after you wrecked it and asking them to pay for the wreck. Why would they insure you for something that’s already happened?
The problem is that people are equating insurance with healthcare. They are NOT the same thing. Sick people can go to the doctor, the hospital, or wherever. But it’s a service and they have to pay for it. It sucks that they waited until they were sick to try to get insurance, but that’s the culture we live in. No one wants it until they need it…then it’s too late.
I’m tired of people acting like sick people can’t get healthcare. Yes, they can. And they do. It’s just harder to get someone else to pay for it when you’re sick. Duh.
But the US is supposedly a country where, with hard work and determination, you can start with nothing and still make it. What if you happen to get sick before you make it? Tough?
And that would happen in any nation. You get sick, it drags you down. Fact of life. Please show me the part of the US Constitution that promises success. Oh wait, it only promises the pursuit of happiness.
It also promises life, and getting really sick and then being unable to get medical treatment for your illness is a pretty good way of losing that.
Exactly.
What I find funny is that the people who claim healthcare is a right (not a service you have to pay for) don’t say the same things about other (more basic) needs. For instance, no one believes that I should be able to walk into a grocery store and take food off the shelf and not pay for it. But yet, food is a more basic need than healthcare.
Paws, are you serious? It doesn’t promise ETERNAL life. Nor does it promise medical care. The right to life means that no one has the right to take your life away prematurely (murder you) and the government can’t just kill someone they disagree with. It means they don’t own your life…you do. It has NOTHING to do keeping you healthy. That’s your responsibility and God’s prerogative.
Parks, you can NOT be serious! There are lots of illnesses which are non-fatal if treated promptly and properly, but have a high mortality rate if untreated.
Paws, cmon, you can do better than that. We all have to die at some point. And even the best care in 10 worlds will not stop that. This cat ate a cheezeburger, your argument is invalid……
I didn’t say that there aren’t. I just don’t think healthcare is a right. It’s something you have to pay for…a service provided…just like anything else.
It sucks that someone without money will be more affected by an illness than a rich person with the same illness, but that’s life. If you have the money to buy great healthcare, good for you.
I’m not rich. If I got HIV today, I would probably die from AIDS eventually. Magic Johnson is rich, so he had the money to cure himself of it. That’s awesome for him, but I can’t expect the same care on my salary.
Just like I can’t afford a $200,000 car, I can’t afford the best healthcare that’s out there. I’m not asking for the government to buy me a Ferrari, and I don’t ask them to give me better healthcare than I can buy.
However, if we could work to bring down the cost of healthcare, it would benefit everyone. I could go from a Toyota plan to a BMW plan and get better care for the same price. Everybody wins (though some will always win more than others…that’s capitalism).
Where do you draw the line then?
Somewhere warm dry and safe to live?
Access to adequate nutrition?
Clean, safe drinking water?
In whatever order I thought of them in.
The expectations of society have changed in the last 230 years.
“Drags you down” is very different from “completely destroys you financially.”
Yes, I draw the line somewhere in there. I think people shouldn’t starve to death or die from drinking contaminated water. This is America, and we have enough of those resources to go around.
And they should receive adequate life-saving care. And they already do. If someone without money walks into a free clinic or an ER in an emergency, they are going to be treated. Why isn’t that enough? Do they need to have free access to my doctor? The one that I pay money to see?
No one ever seems to argue that the solution to hunger and malnutrition in this country is to nationalize the food sector.
I know…I made that comment somewhere else on this page. Apparently healthcare (a service provided by doctors who are looking to make money) is more of a human right than food and water. Makes total sense.
Well, we’ve all had school lunches, leading us to understand just how bad nationalized food could be.
Diss, I think you’re confusing “nationalized” with “Korean War-era government surplus”.
@Ceefax There are 1000 things that can financialy ruin someone. And most of them just as random.
The whole point of freedom and individual liberty is to take care of your own needs. You seem to want govt care from the cradle to the grave. Comrade, that never works.
WTF? Health care isn’t a right? If you have a possibly fatal disease you don’t have the right to health care? That’s it, I’ve gone off the deep end now. My ability to keep anger in check is toast.
1. Anyone who thinks that every single person does not have a basic human right to health care was born without a soul. There, I’ve said it. I can’t be nice about it anymore. If you think NOT DYING is just a service to be paid for, then you flat out sicken me. OMG. Seriously.
2. I *know* at least one person in this nest is Christian, and if you think Jesus would’ve approved of letting people be sick or die because they can’t afford health care, then I highly recommend atheism for you.
Fvck it, reading the arguments in this and the other health care threads seriously make me lose faith in the entire goddamn human race.
Seriously, Rando, chill. Accusing people who don’t support ObamaCare of wanting to go curbstomp poor people with Baby Jesus is about as hyperbolic and factual as Sarah Palin yelling about death panels, and you know it.
Who do you know for sure Rando?
Just curious.
No, you’re right, Dhoti. *twitch* That was hard to say.
Anyway, I apologize for the outburst, but am still disgusted with the extremely callous views presented in this nest, especially by Justacarolinian & parksj1. It’s opinions like theirs that make people think the right is filled with people who care only about money and not people. And I *do* believe btw that everyone *should* have food to eat, but don’t get me started on that. I mean, I can’t even have a discussion with an opinion like that. I can’t even fathom thinking like that, especially parksj1.
And it’s not about “Obamacare,” Dhoti. I’m talking basic human right to health care. If someone can say “they can’t afford it? Too bad for them, not my problem” and not give a crap, then that’s a much deeper problem than just having a problem with Obama.
Maybe it’s just me, but I’m not interpreting them as being quite that harsh. Parks even says explicitly that he’s for free emergency care for the poor, so he’s not pushing for EMTs to check your insurance first, Jennifer Government-style. (And, just to play devil’s advocate for a second, worrying about money isn’t always a bad thing. One of the main reasons I’m opposed to single-payer is because I’m worried about the poor getting stuck with low-quality care. The rich can always avail themselves of some medical tourism if they want.)
Maybe I’m misinterpreting your views too — apologies if I am — but don’t you believe that the only way to cover everybody is to move to government-run single-payer? Granted, it’s a bit of a stretch to call that “ObamaCare” — although I still think that’s the underlying idea — but that’s what I meant.
I will admit to not having looked into all the thousands of details of the health care proposal out there. I don’t have that kind of attention span. LOL Anyway, I would be in favor of letting people pick their own plans (of pickled peppers, uh, hmmm), as long as there is a feasible public option. And by feasible I mean, like you said, not low quality health care. It needs to be something people can actually use, unlike many so-called insurance plans often offered to full time employees of retail or food service.
The problem, naturally, is how to pay for it. I may be idealistic, but I’m not impractical. As much as I support universal health care (and we all know I do), the money is where I get a little worried. I can admit that. I keep praying that those writing the plan have more foresight than I do as far as funding goes. If I were good at that kind of thing, maybe I wouldn’t work at Sears. Anyway, I digress.
We can just have those who want the public option pay for it as if it were just another insurance company, but the poor get screwed that way. We could give it to them for free, but that’ll raise the price for everyone else. We could tax to cover the costs, but naturally people not using the public option would be upset at paying taxes for something they’re not using.
Now, as far as the single-payer idea goes, that does eliminate some of those questions. Everyone pays in, everyone gets the same healthcare. But again, the poor can’t afford it. Essentially, to get everyone covered, it’s fairly likely that someone is going to have to pay that doesn’t want to.
Overall (as we’ve made out way into the Great Wall of Text), I think it’s more than just getting insurance to everyone. It’s getting them insurance they can actually use or that they can afford. Some people have insurance that has outrageous deductibles, or lousy coverage. Others have to pay way more than they can afford for it (I’ll include myself in that one). I think if paying for your health insurance puts you below minimum wage gross, that shouldn’t be legal IMO.
Now, if we were to go with no public option whatsoever, the only thing I could possibly get behind would be insane amounts of regulation over pretty much every section of the health care industry to bring costs down to the point that people could afford it. I don’t trust health care to regulate itself at all.
I’m not sure if I answered your questions, Dhoti. I think I rambled a bit in there. LOL But that’s my take on things.
I see where you’re coming from, Rando. I just hate that the anti-ObamaCare argument so often gets turned into “why don’t you want to help poor people who get sick?”, when I don’t think that’s what it’s about at all. (Kind of like “why do you hate freedom so much?”)
Rando,
I don’t have time to read all your posts, but I think we can agree to disagree on whether healthcare is a right or a privilege. What I won’t resort to is calling you names or telling you you don’t have a soul.
For what it’s worth, I’m a Christian and I do think everyone should have access to healthcare. I just don’t think it’s the government’s job to provide that access. Honestly, I think it’s the job of the church and good and generous people (especially doctors and nurses who can donate their skills and time) to provide healthcare free of charge for people who truly can’t afford it.
You and I may disagree with the government’s role in this, but I don’t think we disagree on the basic idea that everyone SHOULD be treated. I think we have enough resources in our country to provide at least basic care to everyone though the generosity of good people. But when the government steps in and takes away money from someone to give it to someone else, I think we have crossed a dangerous line. This happens every day already, but it’s getting worse, and we are heading in a, yes, socialist direction. Forcing people to be generous by taxing them and giving their money away to inefficient government programs isn’t the answer. Ultimately it will lead to throwing resources out the window and taking away everyone ‘s desire to give of their own free will.
Sorry if you think I don’t have a soul. I believe everyone has a soul, no matter how much I disagree with them.
I admire your passion for providing for people. I just wish every liberal’s passion equated ACTION. If every liberal who wanted the government to step in and do something went out and did something themselves, things would be drastically different. Likewise, if every conservative who didn’t want the government to get involved got involved themselves, we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
Unfortunately everyone thinks the problem is money. It’s really not. It’s time and energy, and no one wants to give those up. They would rather throw money at it and hope that someone else does the work.
Fine, I’m sorry about the not having a soul comment. Some might think I’m in a dream world thinking the government can handle our health care for us. I think trying to leave it all to charity is just as dangerous. Then it becomes a question of will there be enough charity to help everyone. My guess is no. I don’t think health care for everyone should even be a question, but we already know I think health care is a right and you don’t, so that argument isn’t even worth pursuing.
FWIW, this last post to me seems far less callous than previous ones, and I’m glad you explained your position more to me. I still don’t agree with it, but I’m not gonna call you soulless anymore.
Dhoti–I think it’s because we end up with bits and pieces of people’s positions and we don’t get the whole story of everyone’s views with every post and it ends up sounding very often like “it’s not my problem” or “if they don’t get health care, oh well.” Some of the people opposing health care reform I’m sure don’t feel that way, but it does come across that way. You might not see it because you’re on their side of the discussion, but from our side it definitely looks that way sometimes.
I almost want everyone to just state for the record (as silly as this sounds) if they favor health care reform to make it affordable for everyone (forget Obamacare) or if they like things the way they are now. So I can get a barometer so to speak of where people are to make discussions clearer.
Rando, thanks for the comments. You might not believe this, but I’m actually far more moderate than my comments here would lead you to believe. I just think this forum tends to be skewed left, so I play devil’s advocate on the right, backing up the more thoughtful conservatives like Dhoti. Some of my friends in real life think I’m a bleeding-heart liberal. Others think I’m a Neo-Con. I tend to believe this is because I’m somewhere in the middle like most Americans (wishful thinking maybe). Either way, I didn’t mean to come off as callous…but I can see how my comments did portray that. I’ll have to be careful in the future…I’m fighting on the conservative side and I’m sure they don’t need callous-sounding people weighing in (sorry Dhoti).
No, you can still get treatment. There are free health clinics everywhere, and if it’s an emergency, hospitals still have to treat you regardless of your ability to pay.
Granted, you might not get the same quality of care as a millionaire would get, but so what? It’s FREE.
Do you have ANY idea how insurance companies make money?! They only make a profit when you aren’t collecting. Someone with a chronic disease is always collecting. You are an investment to them, they pay you so you won’t ask for more later. However, if you cannot be cured, you’re a bad investment, they won’t cover you. Big business has no morals…
Close — they make money by collecting few percent more in premiums than they pay out in losses. Last I checked, life insurance companies aren’t in the habit of dropping you for kicking the bucket.
Yeah, I guess I generalized a bit too much, I was really only talking about health insurance policies. You have no IDEA of how bad some of the horror stories I’ve read about those beasts. In my opinion, we should just socialize healthcare completely and get rid of the corporate megalomaniacs.
We used to hear about how evil and greedy the drug companies were — charging thousands a month for life-saving medications, taking monopolistic advantage of patent law, fighting against cheap generics — but then PhRMA pledged $150M to Obama, and they became our friends. We used to hear about how evil and greedy the doctors were — making ten times as much as the average American family, building diagnostic facilities to bilk insurance companies — but then Obama strong-armed the AMA, and now they’re our friends, too. You’ll have to forgive me for being suspicious of those who decide who the villains are.
i have three points that assure me the the health insurance companies cannot be trusted. 1) There has been numerous legal interventions brought against health insurance providers who have had a policy of rejecting all claims regardless of what the customer’s contract promised them. 2) Many health insurance companies are pushing to be allowed to cite “genetic predispositions” as preexisting conditions by which to deny payment for a treatment. There has never been a consistent way to determine whether or not an individual has a genetic tendency toward a disease. 3) Several health insurance companies have been indicated as engaging in a little known practice of denying someone rightful coverage and then drawing out the resulting lawsuit until their client dies. These corporations are NOT our friends, they are our parasites.
I could give you three points of the same kind of spin about drug companies and doctors. (It doesn’t mean any of it doesn’t need to get fixed, but I can.) Or other healthcare businesses, for that matter. So why are the insurance companies suddenly the be-all, end-all of anti-reform evil?
Whenever a politician tells me to hate something, I get suspicious. And this latest bit of populist frenzy smells very wrong to me.
I hate the insurance companies of my own free will, I don’t believe a thing any politician says until I look into it. Trust me, I’m a californian, we know all about lying politicians.
How long have you felt that way about insurance companies? In particular, how long have you felt that they need to be nationalized? And as for other similarly sketchy companies, like for example the drug companies, home insurers, etc., do you think they should be nationalized as well? If not, why not?
I work in the health insurance industry, and I assure you that their profit margins are not that great. Most insurance companies barely scrape by (compared to other sectors, such as banking). Many don’t make it at all. We’ve had two major insurance companies in my area go under in the last year. People think they are paying outrageous premiums because the insurance companies are greedy. No, you are paying outrageous premiums because the cost of treating you when you get sick is outrageous. Healthcare is expensive. Collapsing the insurance industry isn’t going to bring down the cost of healthcare. In fact, it will probably increase the cost as the efficiencies that the insurance industry brought (by necessity to survive) will be lost.
I’ve had a deep and unbinding hatred for insurance companies my whole life. I don’t trust them, they have been shown to be untrustworthy, and they measure human life in nickels and dimes. They are all utterly despicable.
I cannot believe you have this sheltered of a life that you don’t know anyone who’s had HUGE medical bills. My child was 10 weeks early (unpredictable and unavoidable pregnancy complication)…the hospital bill ALONE was five hundred and thirty-two thousand freaking dollars! That doesn’t include the doctors’ bills! We make good money, but we would have been literally homeless without insurance.
By the way, where the heck do you see insurance for $1000 a year? That would be only for incredibly minimal coverage. My friend whose white collar, professional job doesn’t have insurance (not just doesn’t pay for it, but doesn’t offer a plan for her to enroll in) pays over half that monthly. Ours (for three people) is $6000 annually and we pay about three grand over that for basic care. And we’re almost never sick.
I live in europe and we pay for healthcare according to our monthly income. So if you win more money, you pay more tax.
Mine is around 15000 dollars a year, but that includes the retirement fund and accident insurance. For healthcare alone, it’s around 7000 a year.
Likewise, but I pay 10% of earned income, nothing on investment income, for the same sort of benefits, with a cap on payments that’s presently about $6_000, and retirement income at about $180 a week (but if that’s your total income you qualify for a host of other benefits too).
We need health insurance for the same reason we need car insurance. Repairs cannot be predicted and can be REALLY expensive. THINK IT THROUGH!!!
Extremely bad analogy. You aren’t required to have auto insurance if you don’t want it, you can shop around to get your own plan, and the government doesn’t have its own plan in place to give auto insurance to those who don’t have it.
The reason auto insurance is affordable is because people get to choose exactly how much they want.
You aren’t required to have auto insurance if you don’t want it
really??? where do you live? in my state (and every other state i’ve ever lived in) auto insurance is mandatory if you ever intend on driving. sure, you can have a car and park it in your garage and NEVER drive it and not have insurance on it… but it’s a bit useless that way.
In the example I’m using, if you don’t have a car you’re not penalized for not having auto insurance in order to pay for those who can’t afford it. Also, your state laws may require you to have auto insurance, but there is no main body overseeing that you have it. You’ll get ticketed if you get into a wreck without it, but there is no main body that forces you to get it.
If you’re going to equate auto insurance and health insurance, are we then going to make people without cars pay into a fund just in case? Will we fine them $4000 a year and garnish that through the IRS? Will we make them get a certain type of coverage as opposed to allowing them to shop around?
It’s a bad analogy.
OK sachet, by your analogy, if you don’t have a physical body, then you don’t need health insurance. I can live with that exemption to required health insurance!
And by the way, in the states of NJ and Mass, you are required to show that you have auto insurance before you can renew your auto registration. And if you don’t have auto registration, the police will pull you over and impound your car.
The ONLY auto insurance you’re required by law to have is liability insurance, which has nothing at all to do with repairing YOUR car. It’s to cover damage that you do to another’s car (or occupant). Health insurance is more comparable to a combination of Collision/comprehensive coverage and an extended warranty plan, neither of which anyone is required by law to carry (although your lender will probably want to have a word with you if you drop collision/comp.)
That’s my point!! It’s a bad analogy to compare auto insurance and health insurance!!
As far as having auto insurance before you renew registration, I know too many people who pay one premium to get the six-month insurance card, then drop the insurance but keep the card for things like that. At least, anecdotally, there are ways around it. But I think you and I are really saying the same thing about auto vs health insurance.
MY GOD!! You just LOVE dabbling in technicalities don’t you! OBVIOUSLY my point is invalid because my analogy is bad because technically you only need liability insurance in some states. Are you really blinded that much by your political zeal? So blind, in fact, that you avoid directly debating a valid point because the analogy I used at the beginning of my statement, WHICH HAD BARELY ANYTHING TO DO WITH MY ARGUMENT besides bringing up the point that medical costs can be sudden and expensive (WHICH THEY ARE), rather than addressing my real argument?! LEARN TO DEBATE WITH LOGIC!
Speaking of technicalities, at least in my state if you are still paying off your car, you have to have full coverage insurance. So maybe if we compare ourselves to new cars, the analogy works better.
Incidentally, Rando, I believe every state requires full coverage on cars that have a bank lien against them. Heck, it’s even that way over here in Australia!
Speaking of car insurance, hubby has no license (too many tickets.. well long story) so USAA made me sign this “Exclusion Form” saying they are not liable for ANYTHING if he is driving my car and is in a wreck. Even if it’s the other guy’s fault.
Which, incidentally, even if it is the other guy’s fault, it’s still your fault if you have no license.
At any rate, hubby used to get all mad at me for not letting me drive.. “But you USED to let me!” “Yeah, I didn’t know any better.. Do YOU want to pay off my car and buy me a new one when you get in a wreck?” “I’m a good driver that will never happen” “I’m not worried about YOU.. I’m worried about the other assholes”.. /tangent.
Kind of like those famous last words, “Hey guys, watch this!” As you said, he may be a damn good driver, but there is a wealth of idiots out there that aren’t. Don’t be a statistic.
I have always paid cash or billed my medical car. It’s not that uncommon.
I would pay cash IF I could find out what the freaking price of a doctor visit was. Healthcare in this country is like walking into a restaurant, ordering something, eating it, and then they bring you a check for 2500 dollars. The problem is that capitalism only works when you can approximate Adam Smith’s ideal model.
A) people understand the product they are purchasing and can make rational choices about it. —Insurance brochures are 30 pages long and full of exceptions, legal speak and every damn one of them has different loopholes that you can fall through if you don’t read the WHOLE brochure VERY carefully and get a lawyer to help you sort out different scenarios so you know how much you will pay for what. Then, in order to shop around, you have to do that will several other brochures. They aren’t standardized in any way. Even the word Copay can have different meanings depending on the insurance company. Sometimes it means what you pay in lieu of your deductible or usual % rate. Sometimes, it is what you pay before you insurance even kicks in at all. This does not even come close to people understanding the product.
B) People must know the price of the product and be able to compare the products—How do you find out the price of a colonoscopy? You can’t…You go to wherever your doctor referred you and pay whatever they tell you to pay. Your doctor doesn’t take into account how much it costs you when he decides where to refer you. The cost is determined by at least 3 different people. The facility that owns the equipment, the doctor performing the procedure, and the anesthesiologist…who you have never met before he comes in to charge you a bunch of money for 10 minutes of his time.
C) Consumers must have time and ability to make a rational choice —doesn’t happen in an emergency. When it comes to my life, I will never make a rational choice.
So, capitalism is broken in the healthcare industry. This is, IMO, a big reason why it costs so ridiculously much. Additionally, I don’t know how you can pay cash for a doctor visit. It is at least 5 times more than than the negotiated rate that the insurance companies arrange. This is because you are paying for all the people who go into the emergency room because they don’t have the money to pay a doctor and they need treatment in order to live. If I could get the negotiated rate, I would never get insurance. In fact, I would LOVE an insurance program that gave me 0 benefits, but did give me the negotiated rate when I need health care. They could charge like 20 bucks a month for them to negotiate on my behalf prior to me needing medical treatment. That way, when i do need medical treatment, all the haggling and shopping around is done already, and I can look up on my insurance companies website what the cost is for the particular procedure and choose where to go based on that combined with obviously, the quality of the healthcare facility. But, when I do need health care A) without health insurance, almost no place will treat me and B) I don’t have time and may not have the physical capacity to shop around or negotiate the price, and since they don’t compete with each other. I end up paying 5 times more than what the procedure actually costs.
Anyway, I am not saying that Obama’s plan will fix this stuff, but, I mean, I don’t really see how it could make it worse. Really…I can’t imagine a system more bloated and wasteful than the current scheme.
⇑ This. One of the least-discussed but largest inequities in our current system.
There’s stuff that needs fixing, but I think ONE of the mistakes currently being made is to try to cram it all into one Frankenhealthcareinsuranceeverythingelse bill.
Indeed. If we allow competition in the health industry, the same thing happens to it that happens to everything else; cost goes down and quality goes up. The doctors and health insurance companies want my business, because they don’t want it to go to the other guys. So they lower their prices. Then the other guy wants his business back, so he goes and offers better care for the same price. When they compete, we are ultimately the winners.
Except, unlike most other businesses, people NEED health insurance. What we get instead of competition is what we see in the oil industry, the big players all cooperate to manipulate the prices. By working together they can squeeze more money out of fewer people than they would by pandering to the masses. I wish I could say anti-trust legislation could fix this, but all that can do is fine the companies a small margin of their inflated profits.
I think it’s called an oligopoly. I’ve also heard the world collusion used in past discussions of it here. But you’re right. When it’s a NEED and not a WANT, they can put their heads together and keep prices inflated out of control. Even more deregulation would be catastrophic in the health care industry.
You are right about the potential for an oligopoly (nice word choice, BTW, kudos). However, the health insurance market has some major key differences from the oil business that make it more compatible with a free market. The thing that distinguishes health care from something like the oil business is the impact of such an oligopoly. With oil, you really just have the oil companies and the businesses they ship to (gas stations, agriculture businesses, etc.). Oil companies don’t ship oil directly to your door, but rather leave it up to the companies to sell it and they make their profit. They can make alliances with each other without worry because they have an indirect relationship with their customers that frees them of much of their accountability to the consumers (you and me). With health insurance, however, there are several more dimensions to it than that. With health insurance, not only do companies have to provide for the customer, they have to deal with the doctors and drug companies as well, not to mention the various fronts of hospitals, doctors offices, etc. Between these aspects and the insurance companies exists a codependent relationship where if they are not meeting the needs of the customer, they will lose business regardless of their affiliation with other companies. If people try to drop that coverage, or the inflated insurance is not adequate to provide decent insurance, and something bad happens, they are left with a failed investment on their hands as a result of the direct relationship with the consumer. They have to provide good coverage or else they lose money in the long run. When regulation is introduced in excess, they no longer are held accountable to the consumer, but are held accountable to the government, whose standards may or may not be the same as the consumers, but at that point, the insurance company is less inclined to meet the demand of the consumer if the government regulations are a bigger liability to them. Feel free to come up with improvements to this, because this topic is definitely more complicated than just free market vs. universal. Neither in it’s purest form will solve the problem. In fact, the last thing we need is pure government run health insurance. That is just the ultimate monopoly.
I think it’s a Roly Poly.
I see where you’re coming from. My paranoia makes me a little cynical, so please forgive me if I remain skeptical of the insurance business. I don’t think all the companies do is screw us all over, but I think they do it often enough to warrant some level of public outrage. Unfortunately their lawyers keep stories away from the mainstream media for years, and when they do reach them it isn’t aired because it’s old news. You have a right to your view, I have a right to mine. I just tend to be a little more skeptical of others than most.
That’s good. That skeptical view is a major part of what keeps these companies in line. They WANT to be successful. They WANT our business. If we remain skeptical, They have to prove to US that they can maintain an honest business relationship. It’s not foolproof (these things rarely are), but it’s a step in the right direction. The wrong direction is to nationalize health care, because I think most of the people here, including you, will agree that the thing we should be constantly skeptical of and watchful over is the government. Like I said, competition breeds opportunity. Government, sadly, will usually breed complacency, and complacency will always breed a declining standard of living.
Once again, I see what you mean, I totally agree the government needs to be watched. My perspective is that we have a lot of say in government. The officials need our approval to keep their jobs, and we’re almost always kept informed about its actions nowadays; really ever since the Iraq war calmed down a few years ago. However, though the corporations have similar relationship, we have little say in their actions and they can be sneaky with prohibitive lawsuits to keep their transgressions quiet. Also, the government doesn’t have the same incentive to steal from us, take too much and people will get mad, and we can do something about the government. I just feel that since our health care directly relates to our health, which eventually relates to our nation’s productivity so the government has equal interest, we ought to have more say in how it’s carried out and enforced, and I just don’t see the corporations giving up that much control.
I definitely agree that we have the final say in government. Unfortunately, that’s a seemingly simple concept that many people don’t quite seem to grasp. The sense that our elected officials are thee to serve us, that they draw their powers from the consent of the governed, that is something that many seem to forget. I think that in principle, we’re saying the same thing. We all just want to control our own lives, and health care is a huge part of that. It’s just a lot easier to have a greater representation in a company that ensures 30 million people as opposed to 300 million. At least in the market place, I have a certain degree of diversity, whereas there is only one government, and that government isn’t really big on customized health care. For them, it’s one way for all, and that will eventually be the bare minimum when revenue going into it slowly starts to dwindle, and then where will we be? If I have to pay a little more for health care that suits my own needs, I’m happy to pay that. But if someone wants the bare minimum, which i can understand when they want it only for real emergencies, there are still health insurance companies outside of the government that provide that. I have a friend whose dad is currently undergoing chemotherapy for esophageal cancer, and his plan is quite affordable. The problem they’re facing now, unfortunately, is that before the diagnosis, he was the sole breadwinner of the household. But even now, with the mother working 2 near minimum wage jobs, they’re still able to afford it and basic necessities. Under a socialized system, it has been proven that for expensive treatments like chemo, the waiting list can be disastrously long, and people often die before they receive help. My point is, these companies do exist, and this one in particular is a local company, so the costs are much lower than a company insuring several million people. It all just depends on what your needs are. And, to be honest, this new bill bears a striking resemblance to medicaid, and that is already a decent allocation of our taxes.
YAY! A real conservative! See everyone, just because we don’t see eye to eye doesn’t mean one of us is wrong. If more republicans were real conservatives like Randman38 here, and the democrats would kick all the pricks out of their party, America would run much more smoothly!
I..I don’t know what to say! I think I almost cried right there. I take great pride in being a real conservative, great pleasure in talking to a real debater, and great sadness in seeing how many people in this country, liberal or conservative, seem to think their ideology is just a word. They don’t see that their actions are dictated by their character, their character dictated by their morals, and their morals dictated by their ideology. If they don’t understand what a real conservative or a real liberal or a real whatever is, they shouldn’t claim to be one. Additionally, people shouldn’t resort to name calling someone as one of these things, especially when they don’t know what that name means either. For example; when people call the hardcore, fundamentalist Christians “ignorant conservatives,” they are ignoring or unaware of the major disconnect between modern conservatism and modern Christianity. In conservatism, people should have the right to decide what to do with what they earn, are responsible for their own lives and support smaller government. Fundamentalist Christians, on the other hand, really support Christian ideals; instead of keeping what you earn, give it away, you are your brothers keeper, a higher entity has the power (in Christianity, this is obviously God, but in politics, this is the government). In modern liberalism, ideals (generally) are as follows; government should have more say in the distribution of property (money, land, etc.), people should be more responsible for those around them, and government should play a bigger role in our lives. By comparison, liberal ideology is far more similar to Christian ideology. You all really should get along a little better. It makes me sad to see Christians and liberals bashed by people who really have a common purpose. People who do the bashing just don’t understand the other sides ideology, or don’t understand their own.
I think there is much to be said for either side in a debate, but I will follow the values i have for myself in coming to a decision about an issue. Many people, however, don’t know what their values are, so they rely on the media, their parents, or their peers to give opinions, and adopt them as their own, not seeing that those opinions often conflict with each other on a moral level. You, No1askedme, are not like that. I thoroughly enjoyed this, and i really am thankful for the recognition as what I am, not what people who do ignorant things claim to be. You, sir, WIN!!!
If you pay cash, you must be getting your service from Mexico, therefore helping the evil immigrants you despise!
I think it’s BULL how cash is looked down upon in healthcare . . . my fiance has owned his own business for more than 11 years, and went without insurance for a long time. He’s been injured before, and had some ongoing complications. I was with him a couple of years ago when he was admitted to a hospital, and if you say you don’t have insurance—that you’ll be paying CASH—they treat you like some sort of homeless reject. They even hand out a form to fill out to apply for a reduction of the fee (this was in a nonprofit Catholic hospital, started by an order of nuns over 100 years ago) or assistance with the bill. He’s far from indigent; he made plenty of money, even then. What’s wrong with cash? I even received a message once (about him) from another institution which said, “We don’t have a payor on this account, so you’ll have to postpone your procedure or contact us with one right away.” Umm, you have a payor, just not one you’re used to: the patient.
OTOH I see your story as the hospital saying “we want to be sure we’ll be paid before we proceed”. Which is a driver in more US based hospital stories that I care to try and count.
VoR…when will you realize all politicians are liars and frauds.. Joe Wilson is no more the Guardian of Truth and Justice than i am Batman! They are all corupt phoney and frauds!
Yes its still a great country but this whole red/blue rep/dem thing is out of hand. Its not a good v. evil thing people. the two party system is aniquated and run its course. Its too polarizing, once polictics is about the issues again then political discussion will be meaningful.
I agree, over 1 million people marched on washington last saturday, people of all races and political parties standing up against corrupt politicians over taxing us to support their own personal aganda/party.
ummm… 75,000… unless you believe Glenn Beck who had “Body Counting Software Phot analysis from the University of I Forget Where” research how many people “actually showed”
Well I was there, you obviously, the D.C. police estimated 1.2-1.5 million people, they made 0 arrests, it was the largest peaceful protest in history. What do you have against freedom anyways?
Official Police estimates have always over-estimated how many people attend a protest. I’ll agree that it was a lot though.
Yeah, I don’t think they turned 75k into 1.2 mil by over-estimating. If so, it was a huge estimating FAIL.
Plus, I saw pictures…my boss was there. It was WAY more than 75k. If I had to estimate, I would say some of the pictures of the Mall had 200k people in them. That was just part of the protest.
Nothing against freedom… you have the right to march, hold your “Obama is Hitler” sign, drink the Beck kool-aid… buy the way… why didn’t he SHOW UP to his “protest”?
it doesn’t surprise me that you were there. Oh, that’s right… I forgot the “mainstream media” posts an estimate of 70-75,000 but you and Fox News say its like 2mil…
No that was ABC that said 2 million. Besides, I hear this from the DC police, (who need an accurate estimate for safety reasons, not political reasons) I live @ 20 minutes from DC. I know my stuff. What do you have against freedom anyways?
Seriously… I have NOTHING against freedom. I love that you went to march in your little parade…
You are a bald faced liar. ABC NEVER said 2 mil. And… oh look! I’m providing a cite to back it up!
{http://factcheck.org/2009/09/how-many-protesters1/}
This wasn’t Beck’s protest, he just was all about covering it. It was started by FreedomWorks and took off from there. Will it break your heart when I tell you G. Beck isn’t a republican? Besides, what do you have against freedom anyways?
So, it’s not “Grassroots” at all then? Hmm… And not Glenn Beck’s protest… ok…
By the way, straight from the horses mouth on his 9/14 radio show (of which I’m sure you have a copy):
BECK: You know, no newspaper is willing to give numbers, I think, more than 50 or 60 thousand — unless you go overseas, and then you read the papers in the U.K., and they’re saying between 1 and 2 million people marched on Washington. Let’s just say it was 500,000. I mean, I would have thought it would have been a success at, you know, 200,000
These so-called “grassroots” protests against… Well, they can’t quite decide what they’re against, but most of them turn out to be manufactured by politicians, and are more astroturf than grassroots.
Over a million people are “manufactured” by politicians? Can you provide any real evidence of that?
FreedomWorks IS a “grassroots” organization, nuff said… What do you have against freedom anyways?
Freedomworks led by Dick Armey (some people truly live up to their name)… nice when your “grassroots campaign” is led by a corporate lobbyist…
No, the events are manufactured, the misinformation to get people to turn up is manufactured, the websites that promote them are created by politicians.
The whole teabagger movement is created by big government – the big government that was in power last time.
I’m not sure how things work on your side of the pond, Ceefax, but just because the White House press secretary says something, that doesn’t automatically mean it’s true. (Check the last President’s press secretaries if you don’t believe me.)
The actual truth, as always, is somewhere in the middle, but it’s that the overwhelming majority of reform *supporters* are paid and equipped by the unions (particularly the SEIU) and other Democrat-linked astroturfing groups.
Why in the world would “big government” create the tea bagger movement? Big government by definition wants more taxes and more power, that’s how it got big in the first place, it has to be grass roots.
Out of context for life…. Beck meant he thinks, the papers reported 50-60k, not that he thinks it was 50-60k. Either is regardless, you weren’t there, Beck wasn’t there, but I was. I’m not saying the papers are lying, it’s very possible there were only 50-60k there when they estimated, but through out the day another million plus showed up.
So you’re saying this “rally” had about the same attendance as Obama’s innauguration?
the funny thing about being in attendance at something with a lot of people… when you’re in the middle of it, it seems HUGE. like there are MILLIONS of people there. but when you look at the aerial footage or at the tickets purchased or at some other MEASURABLE function it’s usually a lot smaller.
i’ve experienced this every year when i volunteer at the local race for the cure. i’m there thinking “wow this is a great turn out. probably close to 50k people!” and then the numbers come back in later and there were only 18k participating.
it’s really easy to overestimate the size of a crowd when you’re in the middle of it and can’t see how far it stretches. plus, i’m pretty damned sure that if a million people marched on washington it would be the top news story just about everywhere. your little pity party on washington barely even made it to the press.
Careful, Shortie, VOR will quote the “mainstream media won’t cover us because they love Obama” line ad nauseum…
and that’s when i flip out… right?
*hands shortie a xanax*
Better living through chemistry, dear…
i already rattle when i walk…
You just can’t count that high… not enough finger and toes, I suspect. Here’s a cite for you.
{http://factcheck.org/2009/09/how-many-protesters1/}
Ok, I looked at the chart used to estimate the people at Obama’s inauguration, and then compared to the photos of 9/12. It was easy one million.
Here ya go, Fu(ky McFu(kington. A cite for you, too!
{http://factcheck.org/2009/09/how-many-protesters1/}
please just shut up now. there are SANE conservatives who frequent these boards and you’re making us all look like fools.
Not only sane, but also respected (even by liberLOLs like me) for being able to carry on a debate, such as yourself TOS.
you mean you can debate on the interwebz without calling someone a douchebag? LOL
Yes, well except in the rare cases when the person clearly is one (check pic for examples).
when we get too civil we start calling each other assholes just so that we can say it was a real internet debate.
OOOHHH, whew, well its good to see that you still incorporate boorish name-calling when debating, i mean to actually respect your opponent…wow, that is so high school debate team! LOL
Well all I said was….Section 148 of House Bill H.R. 3200 reads “your a douchebag if you believe everything just cause it’s posted on the interwebz.” Kinda funny, was just stalling while i googled it, I wasn’t calling anyone specifically a DB, however I cannot speak for those with guilty consciences or peeps that believe everything they read on the net. I did call BO a DB and liar-in-chief, but this was in complete context and spirit of the of the LOL pic. Oh and I did say “sheeple” but was not referring to people posting here, unless your are a sheep, in which case that would be purely coincidental. VOR pleads not guilty to instigation and name calling.
Your honor, the prosecution thinks the defendant is too fvcking nutty to stand trial. We’re adding him to the death panels.
Comrade Maxwell! Please add Voice of Reason to the death panels!
AWWWW!!! thats the interwentz i know…lets see how this works!
You are teh sux commander! I cant beleive you like the republican partyz. YOu must like to sux the rushbo. Turn off your brainz cuz you knowz the Obama would beat Rush anytimez!!
LOL you are right, that really wasnt much fun!
I find it harder to do that than to just call someone an ass clown.
That gave me disturbing images…
Then my work is done!
*ninja vanish*
The same thing you would do Red Shadow? So you are admitting you are rude and interupt people? God i hope you are not in the professional sector! Ever been to a meeting when your BOSS talks crap and you have to bite your tongue..its called professionalism.
Yo, man, you’re great and everything dawg, and I’m gonna let you finish. But I have to say, Serena Williams’ outburst was the best this year!
Johnny Mac is still the best at verbally abusing tennis officials….
yo, you’re right man…that was just rude of me…that was just plain rude…
The both appear to be wastes of air to me. We should confiscate 100% of all their belongings and use that money to fund healthcare for illegal immigrants, because lets face it, they are stuck on this rock called earth with the rest of us, and we all desearve healthcare.
We should provide healthcare to the entire world! Why wait until they cross the border?
Excellent idea! One of the best I have heard on PK in a while!
But what about all the people bleeding and dying on the sidewalk in other countries? Aren’t they people too?
Yes!
Should we work to help improve well being globally? Um, yes.
Without a doubt!
That’s not what I said. I didn’t say to work to help improve well being. I said we should provide universal health care, globally. If we are going to ignore the border and provide health care to illegal aliens when they arrive, then we need to provide health care to all of Mexico. If the border is so inconsequential, why make them come over here? If we go there, then why not South America?
Universal health care is feasible in this country. Trying to do it for the entire world is not. Get your head out of your ass. I know what you’re trying to say about illegal aliens. That being said, get your head out of your ass.
Hey, please stop saying stuff like that to me, ok? I don’t tell you to get you head or your ass out of anywhere and I never have. That being said, it might be feasible, just barely but if we ignore the flood of illegals coming over the border, then we may as well as cover Mexico as well. That is exactly what people like Joe Wilson and many other people are worried about. Try to think ahead a few years please.
I like where this is headed! Maybe we can ever take care of the healthcare all over the world! It would be one less problem! Great ideas!
Great- we’ll send YOU the bill!
Love the irony implied!
“The both appear to be wastes of air to me. We should confiscate 100% of all their belongings and use that money to fund healthcare for illegal immigrants,”
`
You’re both/all wrong. We should confiscate 100% of all their belongings, AND all of Paris Hilton’s belongings, and give that money to ME.
And then you can use it to get health care to people? I like it!
I don’t think that is what he had in mind.
You deserve nothing unless you earn it. Eat well, exercise, and stop “working yourself to death” to buy stuff you don’t need.
Everyone desearves healthcare. Its our duty to help those around us. And yes, we should all be encourages to eat well, exercise, and get plenty of rest. However, for huge portions of the worlds population “works themselves to death” just to barely get anough food to eat, and some don’t even get that.
And if they don’t have clean water, well, obviously they’re too stupid to find it!
No, they are oppressed and lack of education is also part of the oppression. Our military and charity organizations try to help when they can, but they are mocked (specifically the military) and ridiculed by their own people. Even worse they are killed and terrorized by the oppressors. Face it, over 2 billion people in this world don’t even have indoor plumbing, and here we are whining about paying too much $$ for insurance, which many don’t even need. Even worse, many of the “uninsured” in this country are so because they don’t want it or need it. Those too poor who need it, DO have access to free health care from the government already.
Military and charity is not enough! Fight lack of medicine with medicine, not military might! And eveyone needs insurance. There is noon who doesn’t need it unless you are super rich and can easily pay our of pocket in case of an emergency. And the poor don’t have the kind of access to healthcare that they need, which si preventative health care. The may be able to be seen at the ER, but they can’t go to the doctor regularly, or take theirs kids whenever they are sick. We can do better!
You can’t fight warlords/oppressors with medicine, 1st they kill you, then they take your medicine. Second, you absolutely have access to regular checkups for free if you can’t afford it, especially for the kiddies. Finally, the emergency room visits are done by people that can afford or it or just never bother to enroll in any of the free programs. If you get super sick all of a sudden, like a heart attack, you go to the ER, you get a bill, you pay the bill. If you cannot afford it, you can receive assistance from the government to pay the bills.
I think you can fight warlords and oppressors with medicine. I doubt any country is going to say “no thanks, we would rather not have medicine for our people”, especially if its offered. Can you go ahead and send me that link for the current free healthcare programs? I would love to see who all qualified? Because i am willing to be there is a level of income where there is a cut off, and thats the portion of people who are hurting.
Even if you ninja in and stock the the hospital shelves, they raid it with armed gangs and kill anyone who gets in their way. Then the meds are sold on the black market. Yes, here in the U.S. there are many who can’t afford those ballin’ rims along with health care. Here’s a link there are many places to go, http://www.uniteforsight.org/free_health_coverage.php
For those on the borderline who make just a bit too much money for free stuff, we need to lower the cost of insurance, in addition to utilities, gasoline, transportation, etc. so they can afford to get ahead, spend money on the economy, pay for advanced education, cut back work hours, etc.
Wow VOR, now you’re a racist too? Someone should take your tongue away.
He never actually said a single race did that, but since your mind jumped there then it’s obvious you feel the same way deep down.
Shut…up…. HOW DARE YOU CALL ME A RACIST YOU DON’T EVEN KNOW ME! /sarcasm
Sereously though, how is using black stereotypes when describing people who are “dumb because they want to spend money on stuff they want” NOT racist?
Yeah, but it’s figuring out how to clandestinely administer the antipsychotics to Kim Jong Il that’s still a puzzle.
Send Bill Clinton. Kim like Bill.
That’s TOTALLY what it’s like in America…. Think before you speak, you make real conservatives look bad.
Mankind has had health care for 1000′s and 1000′s of years until Bush ruined it by invading Iraq. Oh and Joe Wilson took away indoor plumbing from 2 billion people in this world by shouting “you lie”
I don’t know what any of that you just said meant, but if you are down with everyone on the planet not having to worry about dying to things that only effect third world countries, then you are fine by me!
VOR: are you currently wearing your tinfoil hat, or does the hockey helmet block all those “Government transmissions” on it’s own?
I think he is pointing out the absurd by being absurd.
Well it was definately absurd!
And pointy!
Funny. I can’t actually find a coherent point in anything VOR says.
And Clinton, Carter and His Holiness had absolutely nothing to do with it? YOU LIE!
YOU SIT!
Taylor Swift grabs the mike from Obama and shouts at Joe Wilson “You lie, Kanye is the biggest douchebag of the year!” She then turns to Beyonce and whispers “No really, what is a douchebag?” The Secret Service then wrestles them all to the ground.
Somewhere, Jon Gosselin is green with envy.
Ha!
I’m of the opinion Kanye wins that award. Sure Wilson was waaay out of line and incredibly unprofessional, throwing a temper tantrum in the middle of a speech, but that’s not really new. it’s happened with past presidents and let’s face it Obama can make more speeches.
Where as Kanye has been a douchebag for quite a while, and interrupted what could be a once in a lifetime event for Miss Swift just so he could pretend like he gives a rat’s ass about another person.
Also he’s managed to convince people to wear those retarded plastic things over their eyes.
Kanye looses for bad hair as well, what was that crap carved into his noggin? i think the 80′s called they need their hair back.
Sorry Kanye, you lose at life.
Oh my. WHERE IS MY SHAMWOW? *cleans freshly spit tea off monitor*
winner gets shot into the sun i hope
Winner gets to call a “foot fault” on Serena Williams during Match Point for the championship at Wimbledon next year and she gets to follow through with what she’d do with a tennis ball…
Excellent.
Kanye West hands down, he has a history of douchebaggery that strengthens his claim to the title. Wilson also was not drunk, he was just impassioned about defeating health care “reform”, like most Americans. The founders of this country were impassioned in the same way and may have gotten a little out of hand too.
So Americans are happy with the clusterfvck that’s our current health care “industry?” Seriously?
Maybe not, but they don’t want it ruined by the government, they want it fixed.
Well that’s good, because the government plans to fix it.
Ruined by government? It’s already pretty well shot to hell. How much worse can it get?
Technically Obama did lie about many things, just not about that issue in particular, and just because he didn’t lie doesn’t mean he didn’t mislead people.
Then again, he is just another disgusting political figure like all the others, this one just has a tan that makes him the most popular kid on the debate team.
Well, that an his extensive, well spoken vocabulary, paired with his excellent debate skills. “You lie” was probably the most “debating” he has heard from that side of the aisle to date. Its also shows the limits of the number of letters the opposing view can use to make their point heard.
Say what you will about Kanye, at least he’s willing to ask Obama the tough questions.
No one will call him a racist…
Obama isn’t a racist. Where do you puppets get this stuff? If you were talking about Kayne, he’s not a racist either.
P.S. Both of them love to hear themselves talk too, they’re not that different if you look at it the right way.
Nor is Wilson.
Dick Armey was a lobbyist for lower taxes and more freedom so corporations could hire more people, he was a professor turned congressman. Now he is a “freedom fighter”. Why do you smear him?
Because it’s easy and he has a funny name…
Aw, hell yeah!
they look like their gonna do the ET finger thing here…
No, it’s the creation of Kanye-as-Douchebag. Note that Kanye’s finger and the creator’s finger are not touching. It gives the appearance that the creator, the giver of douchebaggery, is reaching out to Kanye and Kanye is receiving. The pink backdrop behind Kanye is in the shape of a brain or a uterus, perhaps as a symbol to show the creator’s plan of creation, which had not yet been delivered, or revealed . . .
Yeah, why do political figures always point at things? Seriously, that’s what I see them doing in 80% of all pictures…weird…
There’s some interesting comments to be found around here.
I got a question to americans though:
Was Obama’s healthcare plan part of his electoral program?
One of his calls during the campaign was for helthcare and insurance reform.
So people voted for him knowing that he would install a national healthcare system?
At that point, technically no. While he had talked about National Helthcare Reform and mentioned what options he likes, it is ultimately up to Congress to write the legislation.
For the most part yes, unless he was speaking to a national audience then it was just “reform” usually. But not always, he was very inconsistent on many of the details. He ran on the “vote for me and I will give you free stuff” campaign.
Okay, so from what you write, it seems to me the fault is at both sides:
Obama’s for not having been clear enough about the details
The voters who complain, for not reading all of his program (provided national healthcare figured black on white in his program) before they voted.
He got about 53% of the popular vote, so there’s plenty of people who didn’t vote for him to complain about the healthcare clusterfu(k.
It sounds like no matter what, tens of millions of people are gonna be pissed. *shrug* Change is never popular.
When people said that to hardcore liberals during the Bush years they were called stupid.
It’s either valid or it isn’t.
Shaq is holding a panda. Your argument is invalid.
Well…………..
ok
I know, I have perfect logic.
I agree with you on that completely. But in the end Bush’s policies did cause a massive recession…
Just ignore VOR Keith, he’s a total puppet.
Are you saying you don’t want free stuff? Are you even human? /sarcasm
But I haven’t even got my free keychain yet, much less anything else! And where’s the punch and pie? I was told there would be punch and pie…
There is no punch and pie.
The punch and pie are lies!
But regardless of who eventually writes the legislation, people knew (or should’ve known if they were informed) what Obama would be going for?
If that’s the case, I don’t understand why they are complaining now.
Generally because many of those complaining loudest didn’t vote for him. Some will not support ANYTHING Obama supports regarless of whether it makes sense or not.
This is one of the great things about America. I did not support many of the things that Bush did and voiced my opinion about them at the time. One of the bigger controversies now is not that they are voicing opposition, but HOW they are voicing opposition.
Many opposing the reform (and many that marched in the 9/12 rally and town-hall protesters, etc…) are being labeled as “racists” by those on the left. Now, I don’t know whether that is true or not. Those that support Obama’s idea for reform are called “socialists” by those on the right. I don’t know the truth of that either.
When I protested the war in Iraq, I was labeled by the right as “unpatriotic”. It’s just the way things work here, I guess…
I guess that’s the way it goes in every democracy. According to the support polls though, many people who initially voted for Obama, now complain about his politics.
I voted for him, and I too, have some questions about how he’s handled certain issues. I am willing to give him more time than most have given him to prove himself. In order for this country to get turned around economically, money NEEDED to be spent. I’m not sure that it was all spent the correct way, but I’m willing to give him some time to see whether things turn around before I join the throngs of nay-sayers.
It’s government “red tape” and over taxation crushing the job market and economy. If you want the economy to recover, stop taking our money so we can create jobs, invest, and spend. We are taxed on almost everything, gas, housing, income, transportation, entertainment, communication, utilities, and on and on. All the while the government keeps growing and growing and blaming everyone but themselves. “Government is not the solution, government is the problem.”
Well put.
Yes, MG, you are an unpatriotic socialist. If the shoe fits… wear it (or throw it)
Good idea. Hold still.
*throws shoe at VOR*
VOR ducks… ROF is imprisoned… VOR has sex with many women… ROF takes many crits in the pooper… VOR wins!!! again.
You are obviously no older than 12, go to bed.
Please don’t tell me you actually believe that town hall protesters are getting remotely the kind of even-handed coverage given to war protesters…
No, I don’t… I was just trying to point out the generalizations made by both sides.
The war protesters were covered? Where?
In practically every newspaper, in every nightly newscast, in every cable news program — they were all over the place. Particularly pre-surge, when the withdrawal movement was at its strongest.
Other then everywhere?
Cause they already spent all of our money for they next ten years in the first few months, now we cant afford it. People start to ask, do we really need it? When the majority decides no, we just need to lower insurance cost, we don’t need a national system, he continues to push it on the people. Many now believe its just a power grab since he appears to say and do anything to get it through. With additional build up from Wilson before trying to lower cost and got blocked, it led up to his “you lie” outburst.
And how are you going to get lower insurance costs then? Government regulation and intervention?
Everyone should be able to access decent healthcare free at the point of access, not just the poor and the rich, the people in between as well.
Thumbs up!
Your thumbs will never fit with your head already taking up so much room in there
That’s what your mom said!
Yeah, the only way that insurance and health care would ever be affordable for everyone would be MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF REGULATION. Now, I’m all for massive amounts of regulation, since I don’t trust big business (to regulate itself) farther than I can throw it, but aren’t the Republicans against that too? Isn’t the Republican way of life to deregulate EVERYTHING and hope it all works out okay? Anyone who might think THAT is the answer to health care is living in their happy dream world. Here in real life, something needs to change.
I think what you fail to realize is that putting all these poor people that go to an emergency room on “free” insurance paid for by tax dollars will actually save ALL of US a LOT of money. The cost of all their premiums is less than the cost of treating them all in the emergency room AND they get the preventative care that prevents little problems from becoming emergency room problems saving even more money. Right now, you are paying for them to go to the emergency room every time they get sick because that is the only place that will treat them when they have no insurance and no money. The emergency room costs about 10 times what a non-emergency equivalent of the same treatment costs, and they aren’t paying their bill…so the hospital has to make up the cost somewhere, so they charge everybody else (esp other people without health insurance) more to cover these people. So, IF we provide these people free health insurance, then yes, we will need to pay for it with tax dollars. BUT, our health insurance premiums will go down (presuming there is still competition in the insurance industry) as the hospital won’t have to charge everyone else for the cost of the emergency room people who don’t pay. Additionally, it will become more viable to live without health insurance as you won’t be paying 5 times the actual price to pay for the 4 uninsured people who didn’t pay their bill. If you ask me if I want to pay a tax, or a premium, I ask, which is cheaper.
However, Obama said he wouldn’t raise taxes, so what he is trying to do is make it so that the healthcare providers or insurance companies pay for it. Of course, that tax would get passed onto you in the form of increased insurance premiums or cost of treatment, but that increase will (if the fiscal analysis is correct) will be far less than the money saved by getting these people out of the emergency room. The net result we would see is reduced premiums and no increased taxes just by essentially paying people to only go the emergency room for emergencies and see doctors for non-emergency care. The trouble is, this argument is far too complicated for the american people to follow. Hence, all the confusion.
As for the public option, well, yes, we could just give poor people an insurance voucher and let them pick a private company, but I want a public option to ensure competition. The lack of competition in the insurance industry (which I addressed in another post) is inflating prices because these are for-profit companies. They will make as much money as they are able, and with insurance being so complicated and customers never being fully informed about the product they are getting (just imagine trying to compare the negotiated rate that different insurance companies have with different hospitals..how would you even find that information? would they even tell you? for which procedures?…it would be a nightmare), customers are essentially picking insurance randomly meaning that lower prices and better coverage are not being rewarded by the market place as much as they are for other products. Additionally, many people get insurance through their employer, whos interests aren’t the same as theirs. This also puts the crunch on small businesses and individual consumers who don’t have much negotiating power. The public option, to me, is an easy fix to a system where capitalism isn’t working right. Part of the public option is also to standardize the language in insurance(enhancing competition) and prevent insurance companies from dropping people who get sick. After all, that is the whole POINT of insurance, and that should not EVER happen. They also shouldn’t be able to raise your rates after you get sick unless it was your fault you got sick (i.e. started smoking, car accident where you are legally determined to be at fault, etc.).
Ok, it’s me again… Yay for logic!
Boy, you don’t post often, but you definitely do it right!!!
Are you 3 guys related?
No, but I like Religionisdumb’s little injections of concentrated reason in this crazy maelstrom of anti-logic.
No, it’s all the same person…haha.
OMG, I MUST HAVE MULTIPLE PERSONALITIES!
Since you agree yourself that insurance companies are for-profit companies, I see another solution than increasing competition amongst them: just make regular healthcare a state monopoly and you disable the for-profit problem. People couls still subscribe to private insurances for the “extra stuff” if they desire to.
There is one HUGH problem with a public option increasing competition. Estimates show that within 3 years (yes, THREE), most private companies won’t be able to stay afloat if there is a public option that is subsidized by tax dollars. That means that there will ultimately be much LESS competition due to a public option. It really astounds me that intelligent people like yourself are really supporting a public option on that basis. Blows my mind.
Also, since when is it the governments job to BE the competition? What the crap? Are you serious? Promoting competition is one thing. BECOMING the competition is something entirely different. It will ultimately hurt the industry, drive companies out of business, and decrease competition. I really can’t believe anyone would support a public option on that basis.
That was supposed to be “HUGE”, not “HUGH”.
Estimates only come true if the scenario the estimates are based on go according to plan. And as we all know, not everything goes according to plan. Maybe the private companies will improve their quality as to outdo the public health care option.
As for government being the competition, well, that is assuming that EVERYONE thinks they get better health care from the government. On the contrary, just because it is from the government doesn’t mean it is higher quality. I am sure that private health care companies would (or rather SHOULD) give benefits that the government can’t or won’t provide, whereas if people can’t afford the high-quality insurance, at least they can fall back on the government one instead of none.
I remember coming to the US, back in ’95 in some kind of youth exchange program. They gave me a leaflet before I left, saying that I must not, under any circumstances, discuss politics or religion with my american host family. Hehe!
While reading this blog, I think it wouldn’t have been that bad if I did. Except for people getting called a douche or ignorant from time to time, I’m surprised at how calmly you guys can discuss politics. I actually think it’s way worse where I live.
Discussing religion and politics in person is very touchy. People get very emotional about it. Because it is difficult to come up with arguments on the spot sometimes, so you get flustered and emotional. However, if you take the time to sit down and type out the argument, it is usually enough to provide a coherent thought rather than just a random insult. Some people still can’t do it. They are the ones that end up insulting people.
Wow, a comment without “delusional” in it.
Yes, but if you do it right you can get to watch a pretty good fight!
The president is going to get booed sometimes. Look at all the crap poured on George Bush for eight years. If you don’t have thick skin, don’t take the job. Kanye West on the other hand ruined a once-in-a-lifetime moment for a young girl. No apologies can ever fix that. Really, to compare Wilson and West is no contest. Kanye get the lifetime douche award.
And BO is going to get “booed” even more in the future. He wasn’t even elected with our conventional democratic process. He was elected by finding a legal loophole that allowed tax payer dollars to be funneled to ACORN which in turn payed people to gather names and addresses from typical non-voters, then registered them a into his party, and actually voted for them without regard to the candidate of their choosing. The election was rigged, the debate isn’t even if it was rigged or not, the debate is over whether or not the rigging was enough to win the majority. In other words, his supporters argue he would have won even without exploiting the absentee voter loop hole. There is still an on going investigation.
Bush – Florida…
That was just practice for setting up 9/11, right?
Nope. I just find it ironic that the people who are so “outraged” by allegations of voter fraud this time were nowhere to be found when allegations of voter fraud were raised in Florida.
I think there should be an investigation, and if, indeed it turns out that fraud occured, then let’s see how it plays out.
It’s not “ironic” just because someone disagrees with you. It also doesn’t delegitimize their opinion.
I’m not deligitemizing their opinion; but I do think it is ironic, how is it not?
That’s exactly what you’re saying — “you have no right to be upset about ACORN, because you weren’t upset in Florida, which is the one *I* cared about”.
I know people who think that 2000 and 2004 were fair, if poorly executed, and that ACORN, the Virginia Democratic Party, etc. tried to throw 2008. I also know people who think that Katherine Harris threw 2000 and Diebold threw Ohio in 2004, but that 2008 was fine. It’s not ironic to think that some of the “allegations” have merit and some don’t.
(I also begrudgingly know one guy who thinks they’re all rigged by the Jews, but I don’t talk to him if I can help it.)
I’m sorry if it came off that way. What I was trying to say, and said above was; that they SHOULD launch and investigation and if it turns out that there was fraud, then certainly something will need ot be done.
I think the allegations may indeed have merit, I can’t speak on it, because I’m honestly uninformed on it. I think ANY allegation of voter fraud needs to be investigated whether i support the official or not. The election process is the cornerstone of our democracy.
I misinterpreted you; my mistake. And I agree. (Which is why I think the DOJ’s dismissal of the Black Panther voter intimidation case is so egregious, and I’d be strongly against it regardless of who it helped.)
But there were investigations (and independent recounts) in Florida, and while they found government screw-ups, incompetence, and plenty of other boobery, they didn’t find any actual fraud.
Boobery?! Where’s DWN when you need him?!
And I’m wondering if that will be the same case this time around. I know that there are still Fla/Bush Conspiracy Theories floating till this day.
If they investigate and find that the results would still show Obama winning, I feel that won’t satisfy those in opposition.
Well, you’ll never convince everyone — just look at the moon landing thread.
Wait… wasn’t that whole thing orchestrated on a soundstage in Los Angeles?
No no no, ACORN was orchestrated on a soundstage in LA. Katherine Harris certified the 2000 election results from the moon.
From Dracula’s moon base?
(If you don’t read Dr. McNinja, seriously, go do it right now.)
“allegations of voter fraud were raised in Florida.” If you continue to destroy our country with your lies and corruption for your own personal agenda, we will find you and we will defeat you at election time. You have shamed the democratic party and your are an abomination to our republic.
I used to live in Florida at that time, it was a republican state, with not only a republican governor, but Jeb is Bush’s brother. How did those crooked dems (and I don’t mean all dems) ever think they would win that state when that same state voted for his republican brother as governor?
Al Gore is a known liar and opportunist. You twisted, corrupt dems that will lie, cheat, and do anything to gain power, are destroying our republic and discrediting genuine honest democrats and their party. Quit riding on the backs of decent folks from the democratic party and join the progressive party where you belong.
wow, really? OK, now you have officially gone over into the looney bin.
1) ACORN is not legally empowered to check for voter fraud. If they receive a voter registration form for Mickey Mouse, they are required by law to turn it in with all the others. If they just threw out the ones that looked obviously fake, they would be potentially disenfranchising voters. Only a law enforcement agency can investigate voter fraud. Because of very strict rules regarding voter disenfranchisement, you can’t even tip the feds off to which registrations you think are fraudulent, because then the group turning in the registration cards might say, for example, that all the people who marked their race as “african-american” could be fraudulent and should be checked introducing bias into the investigation process.
2) ACORN can’t vote for anybody. Here you just go off the wagon. ACORN only registers voters. It does not vote for them. The only way you vote is by going into a booth and voting.
3) There is some level of voter fraud in every election. And, the fraudulent votes usually swings the way of the incumbent party. The voter fraud cases that are thoroughly investigated though, usually swings the way of whichever party lost the election. So, I expect there were more fraudulent votes for GWB, er…I mean…McCain, but only the fraudulent votes that benefited obama will be investigated. Just like in 2000, I expect there were actually more fraudulent votes for Gore, but only the ones that went Bush’s way were investigated. I still think Gore probably won the popular vote even with the incumbency bias factored in, but Bush won the electoral college, therefore, legally and constitutionally, he should have been president. That being said, we really need to get out of a plurality wins democracy and move on to a majority wins democracy. Plurality wins democracy is destroying third parties and destroying america.
“2) ACORN can’t vote for anybody. Here you just go off the wagon. ACORN only registers voters. It does not vote for them. The only way you vote is by going into a booth and voting.”
This is completely false, it is called “Proxy voting” and it guarantees the right to vote of elderly, disabled, or whatever reason they come with up by allowing someone else to turn in your ballot for you if you cannot physically make it to the booth yourself.
I have personally seen this at my local county election office. Paid ACORN “volunteers” turning in stacks of absentee/proxy ballots.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proxy_voting
FOR THE SAKE OF ALL THAT IS GOOD AND SACRED “VOICE OF REASON”, PLEASE SHUT THE HELL UP!!! YOUR STUPID IS ACTUALLY PAINFUL TO READ!!
EvilPundit was funny for all the same reasons, but at least he kept it short and left when he knew he was beat. VOR is just annoying.
I’d rather read his stuff than “VictorynotVengance”- now there’s a sociopath for ya”!
I’ll take VNV over VOR. Now that Eric-in-STL guy, he was a real asshole. Whatever happened to him?
I think he got converted or something.. at least that’s the latest gossip. I don’t know that we was an asshole, certainly a knee-jerk reactionist!
ERIC WAS A SAINT!!!
Uh, I mean, well maybe.
Thank you for proving my point. Go ahead, cover you ears, chant “la la la la” while refusing to hear the truth or another point of view. This is why no one asks you. If you don’t like what you hear, you dodge the facts, insult the speaker and refuse to listen. This is called ignorance and if I were to judge you by your all caps and broken English post, I would say you define it well.
oh, you don’t want to anger me. Trust me, keep it up and I’ll tear down your little fantasy world with actual facts. All you have is your faith in your idols, I have REAL DATA. If you want to keep on living in your little box, I really suggest you address my statements with actual reason next time. You make only empty claims, I can provide scores of information that disproves everything you believe unequivocally, you’ve even made enemies with the conservatives here… I warn you again, if you want to continue to be viewed with any level of respect by anyone here I suggest you stop hurling empty insults at me…
P.S. I dare you to provoke me to act, trust me, it would be my pleasure to tear your delusions apart.
Oh God. More walls of text to come. I’m going to bed.
Sorry, it’s the best way to deal with these fools.
I don’t actually expect VOR to respond, the prospect of actual facts scares them. If he does though, he’ll be introduced to plenty.
Your more than welcome to pleasure yourself and I will give you some time to get your facts in order. Amazing how defensive you become when I stick up for myself. Perhaps if I directly called you ignorant in all caps as the way you called me stupid you could justify your irrational behavior like your post “FOR THE SAKE OF ALL THAT IS GOOD AND SACRED “VOICE OF REASON”, PLEASE SHUT THE HELL UP!!! YOUR STUPID IS ACTUALLY PAINFUL TO READ!!” which is what I was responding to. Cowering in the corner threatening to bust out your “REAL DATA” is certainly no way to intimidate me. With that being said, I will stoop down to your level to ensure proper communication… Not only am I taking your dare, I triple-dog dare your to come out with your “REAL DATA”… Although I do not wish humiliate you further, I must point out I have not insulted you directly, I said your posts were ignorant and your behavior was irrational. However, since you seem to have a guilty conscience, I will allow you special treatment and save you a seat on the short bus.
oh, hey, the links worked this time…weird.
Also there’s an unintentional smiley that got in there…interesting…
Awwwwww, they moderated me because it was too long…
HAHA, my list of evidence you was so long it wasn’t allowed, LOL. I don’t even need to try and repost it, that should be proof enough for anybody!
P.S. Seriously, VOR, just try to think for yourself.
Links tend toget stuck in moderation. You can do <a href=”"> tags to your heart’s delight, but not anything url-like.
Screw it, I’m not typing all that again, it took me an hour and a half!
It’s not as though VOR will ever come back, I haven’t seen him post anything since last night.
It’s not a name I recognise, no. Then again, your name barely is either. ;p
Anywa, take is a tip for future reference – you can add links like these awesome abandoned power plant photos, but anything url-like gets caught in moderation.
“take is” meant “take it is”. I went too brief there … ;p
Aargh. Erroneous corrections are SO MUCH FUN. “take it as”. Damnit… *mutters under her breath*
I’ve been around, but I rarely post anything unless I feel like it. I certainly hope you don’t view me as the raving psycho I appear to have been the past few days, even I’m shocked at how angry I can get at times. Usually I can just laugh stuff off, but that’s hard to do over the internet…
Danbala, those photos were pretty cool, and as a Floydist, I especially liked you posting pics of one of our hallowed shrines, the power plant for the cover of Animals.
You don’t “stick up for yourself” you bully and insult people until they stop fighting you, victory by attrition. I guarantee I won’t back down until you give me reliable evidence. I tried, earlier today but apparently anything with links in it gets moderated and the damn thing took me about an hour and a half to write, but I might have another go at you later, when I don’t have anything else to be doing.
P.S. I’m a sociopath, guilt is a foreign concept to me. I’ve always imagined it feels something like a stomachache, am I wrong?
P.P.S. I have an IQ of 142, so you can keep your self-referential comments about “riding the short bus” to yourself. I’d imagine you have a lot of experience riding in those…
On going investigation? By who? Mulder & Scully?
Haha!! cute “Mulder & Scully” thanks that made me lol. But in all fairness, if they weren’t under investigation, than were did those tape come from? Since your such a fanboy of ACORN and audio and video aren’t enough, perhaps miss trustworthy herself Pelosi can shed some light for you.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/cq/20090917/pl_cq_politics/politics3204842
Congratulations, you took what was said completely out of context…
How is there not someone using the name Kanye West running around on this lol interrupting threads?
No offense, Squig, but Diss had a post earlier that was the greatest post ever. Ever.
No offense, Squig, but Diss had a post earlier that was the greatest post ever. Ever.
Damn nesting fail.
No offense, MG, and I’m gonna let you finish, but Eddie had a nesting fail that was the greatest ever…
I was hoping that the red light in Kanye’s background was the targeting laser aimed at his douchebag head….
Now, if one of these guys win, will they be eligible for the “Biggest Douche in the Universe” pageant (Re: South Park)?
unless the winner can’t fulfill his duties; in which case, the first runner-up will move on.
here he is, the biggest douche in the universe! In all the galaxies, there’s no bigger douche than you! You’ve reached the top, the pinnacle of douchedom! Good going, douche. Your dreams have come true!
Doesn’t matter who wins, as they’ll both be there so one will interrupt the other.
lol, I never thought of that!
So, we have both Joe Wilson and Kanye West vying for the title of Dumbass of the Year. Could we have a third entry by including Jimmy Carter? The rationale being, he just wants to be relevant.
Oh, I would vote for him, multiple times!
Jimmy needs to act like Ted Kennedy and just…die.
Oh, I wouldn’t wish that on him. Just that he would keep quiet and retire already.
Oh come on! Joe Wilson is a piker compared to Kanye! Any reasonable person can see that.
Joe Wilson stayed in his seat. Joe Wilson never grabbed the mic or the teleprompter from Obama. Joe Wilson said only two words. Joe Wilson didn’t stop Obama from talking. Joe Wilson did nothing wrong because, as Pelosi has said before, dissent is patriotic. Joe Wilson was being a good American.
Wilson was being an ass, not a good American. Calling the president a liar in the middle of his speech is disrespectful. Period.
Agreed!
I’ll be a big man and say that as much as I enjoy hearing about it, I don’t (officially) approve of booing W during his speeches either. There’s a level of respect that a president, no matter how much of a moron he is, should be awarded. And I’m sure if I ever met W in person, I’d be very respectful. Then go bash him on the Interwebz later. “ZOMG he waz such a dork!!”
I kind of see what you’re getting at. I agree, nothing is more American than disagreeing with authority, and I can even see his viewpoint somewhat; although I don’t agree. It’s WHERE and HOW he said it that makes him a douchebag, you don’t interrupt someone in the middle of a speech by yelling out “YOU LIE!” in the middle of a government hearing. It would have been fine if he said it to the press after the fact.
Its time to re-examine instant citizenship (Anchor babies) which hasn’t been illuminated enough, to growing concern of the American public. For decades now pregnant women have arrived on tourist’s visas, through the fence and even at ports of call. Very aware of our mis-interpreted law governing “birthright citizenship”, that attributes full rights to the Mother of an illegal immigrant. How can Americans benefit from this Health care reform package, when we must subsidize millions of households and not just the original interloper? Outlined in the spring issue of the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons is an article that will stun a prudent person. An illegal alien entered the states in 1997 to work as a fruit picker, bringing with him his wife and three children; all illegal aliens.
The lady gave birth to a fourth child, and with that birth the family had an “anchor baby”—an American citizen by birth, who provided the entire family with a free pass to remain in the United States permanently and collect government, subsides. Unfortunately the baby was born prematurely, spent three months in the neonatal incubator, and cost the San Joaquin Hospital more than $300,000. Meanwhile, the oldest daughter married an illegal alien and gave birth to her own anchor baby, and then Cristobal’s wife gave birth to yet another baby. ALL PAID FOR BY—YOU!
This is just one taxpayer example of the ‘Rule of law’ that has cost taxpayers billions of dollars. A nurse admitted last weekend, according to Review-Journal reported that cash-strapped UMC hospital in Nevada is providing more than $20 million a year in emergency dialysis care for uninsured, illegal immigrants. Is American society insane when poverty stricken Americans are turned away, go bankrupt and sometimes die? TAXPAYERS ARE TAXED FOR THIS, BUT NOT FOR OUR OWN PEOPLE? We must insist that a Birthright Citizenship lawsuit be filed with the federal court and its original intent revisited? That E-Verify should be fully funded and a highly skilled MIT team, building on the original Immigration enforcement database to a highest level of security that cannot be compromised by the use of fraudulent documents.
The PC oriented application must be installed permanently on every business computer across this country? ICE should have the manpower to audit every workplace, with the power to arrest and detain employers who snub immigration laws? Repeat offenders should be dealt with harshly, including prison and confiscation of business assets. There should be no mitigating excuses because illegal immigrants are—STEALING JOBS– on any rung of the employment ladder? These employers for years have been an intended magnet for destitute labor in many cases, but have left the burden of paying for schooling for the children, health care and a veiled miscellaneous core of government handouts to US taxpayers. THIS IS NOT ABOUT RACISM, BUT AN ULTIMATE FINANCIAL MATTER OF SURVIVAL FOR US ALL! Coincidentally, I want a government health care, specially for some low income American family members.
Insist your politicians guarantee E-Verify is fully funded and is not scuttled by Sen. Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, Janet Napolitano or any other high ranking Democrats. The Washington switchboard has their number at 202-224-3121. Research these laws, true facts and incredulous stats at NUMBERSUSA & JUDICIAL WATCH
Jebus Krispies! Wake me when it’s over.
This is not the place to campaign your nutjob agenda. GFY. Oh, btw, what would you have preferred the San Joaquin Hospital do with the premature baby? Say “fvck it, the baby’s mom is illegal, let it die?” Who gives a flying fvck how much money it cost the hospital if the baby lived? You’re placing dollars above people, and you make me want to puke on your pancakes in the morning. GTFOSTFUESADITOP.
You know, I’d kinda like to see us send the bill to the Mexican government. “I believe this is one of yours?”
I’d just love to see their response to that one.
Que?
Unfortunately “dollars above people” is a reality. While I personally don’t like it, I’m not sure what fantasy world you live in. Utopia doesn’t exist, but the fact that were are closer to it than we have ever been is a tremendous effort. However, if you believe the democratic party hijacked by progressives and their oppressive big government ideas will bring this utopia, you are sadly mistaken. Poverty, poor health care, etc. is improved by advancing technology, education, and invention, not radical theories of power hungry progressives.
“Unfortunately “dollars above people” is a reality.”
It doesn’t have to be that way.
HA HA HA! You think we’re anywhere near living in a utopia!? Here’s a reality check, there are still plenty of homeless people in our country, something like 40% (I didn’t feel like scouring the Internet and dozens of websites to get a “real” number, sue me) of our nation’s wealth belongs to only 10% of the population, unemployment is at an all time high because corporate deregulation allows them to send all their jobs overseas, 40% of the nation has no health insurance (not like you care though), we are dependent on foreign oil, we are in debt trillions of dollars thanks to Bush’s pointless little war (we STILL haven’t found Osama Bin Laden BTW), and the republican party has decided to market its self to the fascist “religious-right.” Unless you’re thinking of the kind of “utopia” in George Orwell’s “1984″, in which case, yeah we got pretty damn close to that under Mr. Bush’s reign of terror.
P.S. I love how you view “progressives” as bad, obviously everything is perfect as it is and never ever needs to be changed ever again, how “ignorant” of me not to have realized sooner!
I may have gone overboard on Bush there. I don’t really think he acted out of malice or anything, I think he just never realized he was being used by those around him to push their crazy policies.
LOL typical american redneck & n1gger
Hey, admins, can we yank this loser? I didn’t come here to read racial slurs.
At first I was like “I hate this person.”
But then I was like “At least s/he’s not taking a side. S/he hates all people equally.
Better then a lot of people on here.
*shrugs*
I thought he/she was making a sarcastic point about racism.
Comment of the day win!
Rando the Floydist & No1askedme = Troll’d Hard
kanye wins.
kanye was a twat, even B looked shocked, yes i love Beyonce but the other vid was good also
“kanye is a twat”
There, I fixed that for you..
I just watched that, and all I can say is WOW…. just WOW…. Kanye wins this by a landslide.
Kanye, hands down.
Take a look at Guvna Bs page. Hes an upcoming gospel/christian rapper!
lets promote the positive young people instead of the negative.
http://www.myspace.com/guvnab
Wait! The results are in…Odumba wins “Douchebag of the Century” in a landslide!!!! Wow, something he’s actually qualified for..
No one cares what you have to say when you post it all the way down here.
Then why are you looking at it?
Damn, you got me…
Odumba? Is that the best you can do? My 6 year can insult better than that. Geez, using such a lame insult is a bigger slam on Obama than your comment. If you’re gonna insult him, at least give him an insult worthy of him. Sheesh.
O’Poopy Pants?
I think that’s what she calls me actually. O_O
Ah, so now it comes out. When it’s Obama in office, he’s pushing his programs through. But when it’s Bush in office, then it’s congress who makes the rules. Your hypocrisy is a huge festering maggot-filled sore on your face that makes us all want to vomit. Take your drive-by trolling ass back home, loser.
So. You really want to die for the Iraqis? I thought you were supposed to be protecting US.
Odumba was a really really lame insult, dude. At least fvcking try to insult him. Clearly you missed the sarcasm. It’s baked right in there!
You’re right, something needed to be done in both places, but not under false pretenses. If all Bush really wanted to do was free Iraq, he should have said so and gotten the support of other nations to simplify the process. Instead he feeds the American public lies about links to Al Qaida and the now infamous “WMDs” to fool people into thinking we were defending ourselves. If the U.S. wants to play world police, I have no problem with that (It’s not like the UN it stepping up to the plate…), but we should at least be honest about it.
That song is stuck in my head now.
America, fu(k yeah!
Comin’ again to save the mother-fu(kin’ day yeah!
They’re called “executive privileges.” They do not require approval by any branch of government, don’t need specific conditions to impose, they cannot be stopped by any branch of government, and are not defended anywhere in the constitution. They are an abomination in terms of the balance of our government and ought to be abolished. I am gravely disappointed that no president has had the ethic to remove them.
@ george
Calm the heck down man! I understand you may not support Obama’s policies, but where do you get off attacking his character like that?! Look, the liberals chose to call Bush dumb, the conservatives called Al Gore arrogant, the liberals called Bush dumb again, the conservatives called Kerry elitist, both sides get ONE insult per president, not that any of those accusations had any real evidence. Besides, he’s not a socialist, he’s a moderate liberal, he’s never shown any sign of arrogance or prickishness; but that’s ok as long as you chose ONE and stick to it, you can’t decide to call him all of those. You can’t claim his policies are unpopular, he was elected in a land slide. What in the hell makes you think he’s deliberately trying to ruin our country, THAT DOESN’T MAKE ANY SENSE! Listen to yourself rant, you’re making a fool of yourself and you sound like a child; I’m not insulting you, it’s the truth. I agree he gets too much support for just being black, but thats hardly where all of his support comes from and I’m just as disgusted by it as you are I’m sure; but it’s not his fault people are dumb. Just calm down and compose your thoughts, I’m sure you’re more mature than this!
*applause*
there is one thing that runs this country. one little word. greed. and there is no way you can convince me obama has that much support. i understand he won in a landslide. but if he’s so popular why are so many people apposed to his health care plan? and politicians always make things happen to get a desired effect down the line. thats what they do. i believe healthcare needs to be reformed but we need to change the system we have now, not make it run by the federal government. i shouldn’t have to spend my tax dollars on someone that smoked his whole like and has cancer now. i agree in better healthcare, but everyone else shouldn’t have to pay for it.
The thing is that most people are so wrapped up in party politics nowadays that they no longer think for themselves. About half of the country are(is?) republicans, and a lot of them just believe what their told by their politicians. So they go out and protest what they are told is bad, I’m not saying all conservatives are like this, but it’s enough that there are a lot of people protesting things they do not fully understand. The truth of the matter is that a national healthcare plan probably won’t cost as much as many would suspect, and it could go a long way to forcing the corporations to get their act together.
I kind of agree with your point about smokers: they are willingly and knowingly doing something which endangers their health, and I hate the idea of having to pay for their shortsightedness and foolishness . . . . but that opens the door to regulations on their liberty to do things that are foolish.
OTOH, what happens when YOU do something foolish? Or something happens to you that you can’t pay for, nor get anyone else to pay for?
We all have those moments when we judge other people for the foolish choices they make. On down the line, we make a poor choice or have a moment of forgetfulness (example? oh, I don’t know . . . . you didn’t put the seatbelt back on after leaving the driveup ATM), and we may kick ourselves for it or call ourselves “stupid”, but we’re glad when there’s a safety net there to catch us.
You know what? There’s someone out there thinking like you did: “Goddamn fool. What was he thinking? I shouldn’t have to pay for his stupid choices!”
That’s right, Odumba is a douchebag, thanks for posting it way down here
zing
I’ll bet you’re a real treasure at the family reunions. Don’t tell me, you jump in the closet, change your shirt and jump back out and pretend you’re someone else. Oh, for what it’s worth, what in the hell are you zinging?
so what i’d like everyone to take a minute to think about is this: he’s a member of congress. he knows and has more then likely heard and read about everything obama is proposing. so if theres something on there and obama says “its not” theres a damn good chance this guy knows what he’s talking about when he calls him a liar. hes a member of the body of people that will make the decsions on these issues people, he’s not just being a prick. also now congress men and women aren’t aloud to speak out during speeches like that anymore. first off that impeading freedom of speech i don’t care if he’s the prez or not. and if him calling obama wasn’t true…then why would they bother with that new rule. hmm maybe because they don’t want people to really know whats going on.
“New rule”? Where did you get the idea that it’s a “new rule”?
They hold press conferences and speeches and townhall meetings and post resolutions and bills on the web . . . all because they “don’t want people to really know what’s going on”?
No, he’s just being a prick. And a party pit bull.
Foot soldier. Pawn in political chess. Take your pick. You send one of the little guys in to take the hits (and then the attention), and then the big guys are free to swoop in to do the real damage.
It’s called showing respect to the President, you retard. You wouldn’t be celebrating his freedom of speech if he were catcalling your president of choice. It has nothing to do with freedom of speech, straw man.
We aren’t obligated to respect the president, we ought to but we aren’t obligated to. What makes it wrong is that it was childish to burst out like that in the middle of the president’s speech, I don’t care if it was Hitler giving a speech up there, WAIT YOUR TURN! On top of that Obama wasn’t lying, although he was dodging the issue, he wasn’t lying.
I never said respect the president. I said show him respect. I have no respect for GWB in the slightest, yet if I met him I’d show him the respect that a former president deserves, even if he’s a complete douche bag like Bush.
You didn’t address anything I pointed out; why? Because you know your accusations are complete bullcrap? The Congress and the President give out as much information as they can about upcoming or possibly upcoming legislation. It’s out there, if you want it. Your accusations that something is being hidden are the lie. There is no “new rule” that was broken–the outrage is simply from Wilson’s rudeness, which crossed a fine line which hadn’t been crossed before. There is typically a measure of decorum in our Congress . . . it’s not a free-for-all . . . ever hear the expression, “The Distinguished Gentleman”? It’s a method of address for our elected representatives.
Yes, there is “freedom of speech”, but there’s a time and a place for things. Even the Supreme Court has examined the “freedom of speech” concept and finds there are SOME limits, even on that.
Joe Wilson doesnt care about black people
Kanye West doesnt care about white people
Obama’s skin color has nothing to do with Mr. Wilson’s bravely standing up and calling him on his lies. What Obama was saying were total lies! He shouldn’t get away with it just because his skin is darker than Mr. Wilson’s. Obama should be the one saying “sorry”. Not only to Wilson but to the American tax payers who are being taxed to death to pay for his socialist schemes.
wut
Obama wasn’t lying! Obama is not a socialist! Mr. Wilson acted like a spoiled brat! Obama is only raising taxes on the wealthy! Stop making a fool of yourself!
Citation needed.
See link: Factcheck.org proves that in Section 246 of the current Health Care bill that there will be “No Federal Money for Undocumented Aliens”. Your turn.
Yo, imma let you guys finish, but Joe had the greatest outburst of all TIME.
E.T.?
Apparently Joe Wilson & Kanye are going to end up runners up because our winner is right here!! Congratulations!!
I like how you use an “N” to make the name negative! Its like you are turning the “o” into “no” and therefore you are showing your dislike of the man. Good show!
sooooo if we said Nbush or NRush it or even Nfranklen or NBiden it expresses their name in negative. or is bitter troll missing something here?
EXACTLY. Both are results of douchebaggery. Not racism. Are you payin attention, Carter!?
OBJECTION!
OVERRULED!!
It’s legalspeak, you need to take only the literal meaning of what is said. Obama would have been lying if he said, “There is no way for illegal aliens to possibly obtain health care through this bill.”, what he said is, “This bill does not insure illegal aliens.”(or something that’s the gist of that.) He didn’t lie, it’s legalspeak.
Still not seeing how Joe’s a “douchebag.” Is it because he actually read the 1800 page bill and knows for a fact (as do many other Republicans who actually bother to educate themselves) that Obama was flat-out lying, and that his plan not only covers immigrants, but REQUIRES tax-paying Americans to pay for it, and if you attempt to “opt-out” of it then your wages will be garnished? Is it because he knows what’s actually been hidden in the bill and called Obama for his outright lie? Is that what makes one a douchebag? If so, I think you’ll have to count me in on that one, too. Maybe we should pit Kanye and Obama against each other for biggest Douchebag? Or would that be considered “racist” since they’re both black, even if it has nothing to do with the color of their skin?
KANYE HANDS DOWN, at least Joe was commenting on something with Significance…honestly I dont even see how Joe is being douchey! He was right to say what he did! OBAMA IS A LIAR! Not my prez, not until THAT douche actually starts doing things and not just accepting applause! Now, he should be runner up for douche of the century!
No, that award goes to YOU, for your hyperbole concerning an intelligent and dignified person who has yet to harm the country, let alone YOU, in any way.
thank you for all.
kanye wins!