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I bought from Billy Mays, I knew Billy Mays, Billy Mays was a friend of mine. You, sir, are no Billy Mays.
For one, Billy Mays posts in all caps from the beyond.
Hahaha, if? If. If? Hahahahaha.
Oh, all right, they exist: insurance companies kill people all the time by disallowing treatments because they focus only on their profits. Can’t fool you.
And what in the whole wide world makes you think the government isn’t interested in making a profit as well?
Also, Tort Reform. Sorry that we’d rather think through the options instead of jump to the worst possible decision. Seriously, every democrat I know, whether they are my friend or stranger or co-worker, jump to the worst emotional conclusion instead of actually thinking through it.
Secondly, why not make legislation on what the definition of pre-existing conditions. But no, the public option HAS to be done.
Why is the Government making a profit such a bad thing? The only way that a Government gets money is by taking it away from the body politic.
I think the point was that many people cry foul at private companies making a profit, but for some reason assume that if the government does it it will be a less evil thing.
The government is “owned” and controlled by the people. If the government makes a profit, we make profit. Its way better than if a few at the top of one company did.
But since I don’t see the government as anything but a tool of the wealthy, there is no real way to win.
All in all. I’d still take my chances with the government.
So are companies. The people called share holders.
All in all I’d trust companies. Name me one social program that has been successfully run by the government.
I’d struggle with the US Government, but how about the British and Canadian health care systems to start with?
Post office.
Oh, sorry, you said social program, I missed that. *hangs head in shame.*
Not everyone has shares in insurance. And yet everyone is concerned about health.
And even though there have been complaints about the following government programs, they have worked far better than any private option that would have been availible for the public.
Schools
Post Office
DOT
Military
GI Bill
Medicare
Medicaid
Social Security
EPA
Thats all I got at the moment. And yes, many of them are in danger now, but think about how many people it has helped since their start. And consider the -why- they are failing now. My vote goes to the fact that the government is controlled by companies, and yet the companies only have their interest at heart, and not the government programs.
All of those are failing VNV. Yeah, they’re nice, but they’re way under funded and are not near what they should be. How do you see any of these as a success? And, keep in mind that most of this thread revolves around financials. All of those programs/institutions are money pits.
Underfunded because we would rather spend our money making the few profit, instead of investing in ourselves.
I see them all as a success in that they are all steps in the rights direction. Look at all the ones in the list. They may be “failing” but they are all great. Schools to educate us, Roads to move us, Military to defend us. Medicare to keep us healthy, Social Security to take care of us when we are older, and EPA to clean up our mess.
They -are- money pits. It costs a lot to make these programs possible, but they money -is- there. We have just turned a blind eye to the hand over fist money grab in entertainment, sports, and business. Much like we have turned a blind eye to those who need those programs the most.
That’s the people, not the government. You can’t force people to NOT go to a sports game (despite how much I hate how they are paid). Just because you think they should give the money to the programs doesn’t mean the goverment should force it.
The goverment is the imposing will of the people. If the people elect someone because they are fed up with the way its done, then I think the government does have the permission to force it. Its what it does. It makes laws. Our laws (hopefully). Just like a government shouldn’t force anyone to go and die in another country. But they do, and people are ok with that. Its because the good of the many outweigh the good of the few, and the will of the multitude outweighs the fears of the social elite.
Woah, let’s back up here a bit. Our government does not force anyone to go die. There was a draft at one time, but that is long gone. Now, all of the military is made up of people that join by their own free will to protect our country. I don’t know what that means to you, but to me, it means that they will be put in harms way to shield the rest of us from that harm. But, nobody is forcing them to join.
Except for those that join for citizenship, or to keep out of jail, or live in places where all the industry has been shipped overseas, or can’t afford to go to college.
People do sign up for the military. Sometimes its completely voluntary. Sometimes not so much.
So if something has been voted down numerous time why does the supreme court get to overturn that over and over again. I see what you’re saying I really do, but if things worked like that I seriously doubt most of the things you seem to believe in would come true.
I doubt most of the things I believe will come true in my lifetime to say the least. All I can do is still believe. Its the believers who will keep the door open for when the time comes to walk through it.
I wasn’t even alive last time most of those had any success. Seriously in the last 20 years, all I’ve heard are complaints about all of them.
I really love the post office example. UPS and FedEx aren’t allowed to venture into delivering regular mail, and the Post Office has been in the red for years.
History has been going on longer than 20 years.
And?
Saying something worked for over 100 years and then saying for the last 20 it tanked and its all the governments fault it not an arguement. The government put it there and ran it for 100 years.
There were a lot more programs and they’re all failing. These are just the one’s that are left. They certainly didn’t prosper that much, and now we’re seeing their obvious flaws.
I see where you’re coming from, but that isn’t an argument to start more programs either.
I think the obvious flaws are up for interpretation. Clearly, we see them differently. And while there is nothing wrong with that, it’s a waste of time to butt heads over it.
Sorry, I couldn’t finish my thought because someone came in. Anyway. You hide behind the notion that the government is ran by big companies. True, there are lobbyists, but that is just something to hide behind. The real problem is that the government is corrupt. Which is why socialism will never work. It sounds great, but when you enter the human element, it falls apart.
The real problem is that the government is corrupt because the companies are corrupt. How many people in congress right now are wealthy? Where did that wealth come from? I bet you will find very few true bootstrap stories. How many of them will retire from congress to re pick up those cushy CEO jobs?
Look closer — they’re nearly all lawyers, and generally good ones, which tends to pay pretty well. When they leave office, they get lobbying gigs or partnerships at prestigious law firms — they’re paid for their connections, in other words.
There’s not one “CEO” in the bunch.
Any of them ever sit on the board of directors for a major company? Or get their law monies by working for major companies?
I work for a major company. It doesn’t mean I’m rich. Hell, I bet 90% of the people in America work for a major company. That doesn’t mean their evil. Take away those major companies, and who is going to pay our bills? And, by our bills, I mean taxes as well as personal. I know you hate to hear this, but the “rich” pay the vast majority of the taxes for those social projects you love so much.
But, it really won’t matter who is in charge. It just goes to show you that the people at the top, be it business or government, are only out for themselves. If they can make a buck at your expense, they will. Again, this is why socialism will fail.
Click the link for a comparison of Cabinet appointees.
But how does that mean that handing them more power will work?
Let me guess — it doesn’t, but because it involves violently seizing power from large businesses and their employees, it’s therefore good.
I don’t recommend handing them more power. I recommend taking it all and rebuilding it from the bottom. But I try to work within this boards social contructs from time to time. When doing that, I trust the government over the companies.
Dhoti is the king of the half right. If we could just shut him up before he finishes his sentences, we would probably get along fine.
But implementing any of the programs does give them more power.
A more innocent example is The Postal Service. Private companies have wanted to deliver the mail for a long time and despite the Postal Service being in the red for years and firing left and right, they still won’t relinquish some power, even for awhile.
As soon as the government lets the companies have it, they will cut prices until the government is forced to shut down the program entirely, and then start inflating the price. Non profit is the way to go.
VNV, it’s sad that you can’t have a conversation without going immediately to insults. (Also, disagreement != insult, unless you have an oversized ego.) Wasn’t that your definition of a troll?
Dhoti,
Don’t try to play innocent. Every time you jump on into a conversation with me you over exaggerate what I have said, make up things I have never said, and use only the most negative words to do it. And then you want to seem offended when I call you out on it? You ain’t foolin’ nobody pal.
VNV that’s the exact same thing a government body does to private industry if power is handed to them. They aren’t magically better, and now you’ve got an entity that you literally cannot get rid of. At least with something like wal-mart there are ways (no matter how difficult) to deal with them.
And when I do such horrible, horrible things, you correct me gently, logically, and clearly, without resorting to insults, name-calling, or finger-pointing, right?
Tell me again how ones deals with Wal-Mart? They are a multi-national corporation. We can’t really even regulate them. If they had to, they could just move. Or shut their doors and cause the biggest unemployment problem we have ever seen. The employ more people than anyone on the planet save the US government. At least I am pretty certain the US government is gonna stick behind US borders.
Dhoti,
I certainly tried that the first couple hundred times. Then I realized why you even both responding to me at all, which is to troll me, so I just call you out on it. And I am even more gentle with my words calling you out than you are with your arrival. Its all about language. You can disagree with someone and keep it civil.
So, you’ve decided that only trolls disagree with you, and therefore you’re not bound by polite behavior when responding.
Glad we agree.
One again. You misinterpret, and then say something irrelevant. Most everyone on PK disagrees with me at some time or another. And most of us get along just fine. You are just one of a small portion of people who specifically target me. I don’t mind. I consider the source. But don’t expect me to baby you forever. After all, even if you only troll me, to me you are still a troll.
Don’t flatter yourself. When you’re on here, you’re posting non-stop; it’s merely a sampling problem. (Of course, even when I’m here and *not* talking to you, you usually jump in anyway. I guess you have some weird fascination with me or something.)
Again, it’s sad — completely in character, but sad — that you take disagreement so poorly and so personally. I expect you’ll overcome that as you mature, but until then it’ll continue to hold you back.
Funny how you’re doing exactly what you accuse me of. (But you’re doing it in the second paragraph, so I guess that makes it okay.)
Hey, it’s not my fault if the truth hurts. It’s also not my fault if it doesn’t fit your internal narrative. Might want to see to that.
It doesn’t, I think Victory puts to much faith in government. As noble and the ideas are, government is corrupt and will always be.
Government may be corrupt, but so are companies. They’re all out for money, power, or both and the little people don’t seem to matter.
A company is owned and controlled by a select few, and people claim that companies are “legally obligated” to do whatever it takes to benefit those few, even at an otherwise unethical cost to others. The government is supposed to serve all of its citizens, and to do so ethically.
You need to pick up a history book.
I only wish I could put them down.
Speaking of history, I heard this second hand and hadn’t had time to look it up but… Micheal Medved did a show on Thanksgiving about the original colony and how Thanksgiving happened. According to this second hand source who heard this show, the original colonies where actually more of a commune in that they would grow all their food together on one plot and then split it between everyone at the harvest. As it turns out, they were starving until they realized that the problem was that the young men would not work as hard when they were working communally so they divided up the land and when they worked for their own families they worked harder, had better harvests and prospered. Thats how they ended up with the private property idea… (This is a very condensed version of the story but you get the picture)
I think Thanksgiving has all but become a myth. Santa Clause has multiple origin stories, but at the end of the day he is purely fiction. Thanksgiving was an American Indian spiritual holiday. They shared the concept with us. It caught on and we kept it, and their lands, and their resources, and their lives.
Yeah b/c before we came along ALL the native american tribes sat around camp fires singing Coom Bi Ya…….. **note sarcasm**
Hells naw. But even though nearly all the tribes warred, it wasn’t for the same reasons, and most were for very different reasons that the Europeans fought wars. In fact, I just finished a very interesting article the other day entitled “War and Culture: the Iroqious Experiance”. Very interesting.
Yeah, a lot of them fought simply because they needed to prove they were greater warriors than the others.
Well there are historical documents I’m sure and it’s well known that they were having trouble and were dying of disease and hunger then things turned around… Possibly with the help of the Native people or maybe the above explanation is also true…
Well thank goodness the bright shiny pure goodness of CAPITALISM saved the colonies from the slimy, horrid evilness of COMMUNISM!!! There is no greater good than capitalism. I quote Ecclesiastes 143:90: “And God taught them all about the goodness of making money, and He saw it was good, and He started investing in the stock market and got freaking rich and retired.”
Why do you think God doesn’t always answer right away? He’s been retired for the last 20 years, living like a king in Patagonia.
Or maybe, just maybe, God was teaching them the value of taking responsibility for yourself and your family. It seemed to work out for them… *sigh*, I wish I was freakin’ rich and retired.
Isn’t revisionist history great. We can read anything we want into it (not directed at you n00bs). Honestly, interpreting many of the original failures of the Jamestown colony is reading a lot into a little fact. From what I understand of the original Jamestown colony, it was plagued by so many problems related to lack of preparedness, organization, etc that it is surprising anyone survived (note, a huge proportion of the original populations did in fact die of disease, starvation, lack of appropriate housing in the winter, etc).
You know, I read that as “Jonestown” and I was thinking “Yeah, the whole mass suicide/poisoning thing was a MAJOR failure……oh. Never mind.”
It was a terrible failure! Some of them actually survived and went on to start the American holiday of thanksgiving! Hmm…*starts rewriting history books to fit this*
also to add a little more to the issue, be aware that most of the original settlers were gentry who’d moved up from the merchant class, and had no concept of manual labor, let alone getting dirty and breaking a sweat. they had little applicable knowledge of construction, farming, or general subsistence survival.
Cat in the Hat is not a history book, and definitely not Rainbow Fish.
Dhoti: Neither is Hustler (even if it is from the 80′s)
Bottom line for both of you: Government is people; Business is people. People are corrupt and greedy. I’m not stuck with a company 100% of the time, however I am stuck with the Government. Rather use a company
So.. in essence you have given up on people? Thats a sad conclusion to reach. Never give up on humanity. But certainly give up those who spoke of futures brave and proud and brought only hate and war.
We can only truly govern ourselves. Its all anyone can do. I have seen the same things you listed happening, and its disgusting. But I can’t help but believe there is still untapped good out there waiting to be explored. I may be crazy (more like probably) but I will always do everything I can to share the hope of light at the end of the tunnel.
Unfortunately, it’s our own fault that we’re heading this way. We can’t discipline our kids, and no, counting to 10 fifteen times over is not disciplining them, we take all religion away because we can’t make laws about religion, but we have laws banning them (doesn’t make sense to me), we try to abort babies and keep criminals alive, and, well, you get the point. From what I’ve seen, people, one on one, are good. Get them in a group, and they’re freaking insane. That’s why churches, government, etc. suck.
“The government is “owned” and controlled by the people” – and we’ll see how well this works in 2010 I hope…
I lean to the Left and I think tort reform needs to happen. I agree with Trainwreck on that. But we also need get rid of discrimanotory practices like that pre conditions crap. All in all, I think a public option would also be a good idea.
Let me make myself clear. I DON’T like the public option proposed by the Dems. It’s simply one big beuracracy with too many loopholes(as many other gov run plans).
A TRUE public option, imho, would be if a group of like minded individuals, organizations, or communities were to pool money together and provide health care coverage, with no subsidies from the govt or private enterprise. I.E, health care provided by society/the public.
OR
Instead of having ONE big public option run by the Federal govt, have 50 options run by each state. Also allow them to compete along state lines. If Texas has better coverage than California, a person living in LA could opt out and buy coverage from there. Also, there won’t need to be a mandate for people to get health care through the states and states can also choose to NOT have a public option.
I think this way, every one wins. Universal Health Care since most states would have an option, private health care because there would be no requirement for them to leave, tort reform, & ethical business practices.
But that’s just me…
That “precondition crap” is used in almost every form of insurance. There are some liability policies that will cover you for things that you did before you got insurance with them. They are called claims-based policies versus event-based policies which only cover events that occur during the period of time you are insured. Insurance companies have to have a built in risk aversion if they are going to stay in business.
If you have a car with a huge dent in the side of it and decide to go get auto insurance after the fact, the government shouldn’t be able to force the insurance company to cover that dent when it happened before you got insurance with that company.
If they want the insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions they should create a claims-based insurance that covers any claims that are made on the policy during the period it is in force. That type of insurance will necessarily be more expensive because the liability and risk involved in that type of policy is much higher.
Or force private insurers to cover pre-existing conditions if you were continuously covered by insurance for some period, say the last three or five years. That would spread out the risk relatively evenly while still giving you the freedom to switch plans at will.
Or the government could require everyone to buy health insurance. That would bring the price down and spread the risk as well. There could be government assistance for those that couldn’t afford it.
Not without more regulation, no, because policies currently on the market still don’t cover pre-existing conditions, regardless of who’s paying for it.
Pre existing conditions are a double edged sword. We forget that insurance companies are just that, a company. In order for a company to make money they have to have certain rules in whom and who they can have as customers.
If we force companies to take people with a pre-existing condition the company will lose money, if it’s done too much, then how can the company continue to provide insurance?
Now we look at the human side, how can the individual afford a pre-exisiting condition?
I don’t think the Government is the answer to this. More Government oversite has always lead to less profit for a company, and less profit leads to less overhead. Less overhead leads to lower benefits for the rest. Once again we still end up paying, when ever the Government gets involved.
Also, if we force insurance companies to take people with pre-existing the tendancy would be to not buy insurance until you need it… Which would be death to insurance companies, unless everyone was forced to buy it. With everyone purchasing insurance the risk would be spread and the price would then have to come down (theoretically, of course there would have to be fed regulations).
So don’t force companies to take customers. Force the customers to take the companies and do away with all pre-existing clauses. If everyone has insurance, pre-existing conditions won’t be as much of a problem because
1) the risk will be spread among all Americans, both sick and healthy
2) no one will go out and buy insurance the minute they get sick because everyone will already have it
and 3) pre-existing conditions will never be “exclude-able” because everyone will be covered all the time
Yes force your will upon people. It’s for the good of the nation, you must do it!!!!!
How is it any different than being forced to buy car insurance if you drive? I don’t hear people complaining about that.
You really don’t hear people complain about that?
Fu(k Car Insurance! If I hit you, and you can’t afford to pay for it, you should have been driving within your means!
Parks: I can choose whether or not I want to drive. Driving is not a “Right”, living is.
VNV: If you hit me YOU pay for it.
I’m going to say this again: The insurance that you are required by the state to carry in order to drive legally is liability insurance. This insurance covers damages to others caused by you. Health insurance covers (basically) damages to YOU caused by…nature, pretty much (because if the damages to you are caused by, say, somebody hitting you with a car, your health insurer will sue them and keep the money or take part of what you get if you sue; it’s called subrogation). The most analogous type of vehicle insurance would be collision and comprehensive coverage, which is NOT mandated by any state.
Not if I don’t have insurance.
I Like Peanut Butter (can I call you Peanut?…I think it sounds cute),
I understand that not everyone drives (pretty much everyone does, but not everyone). So we could say that you don’t have to buy insurance…only if you want to receive medical treatment do you need to buy it. Is that better?
Diss: you forgot about the whole you can not own a car and not need the insurance, but how can you live without need of Health Insurance.
“Mass suicides today for people without Health Insurance, b/c they couldn’t afford it. Ironically they committed suicide with pills. Obama’s administration blames Rush, ‘How else did they get all those drugs?’”
Or worse we’d have to get liability insurance. “Your honor, I wouldn’t have needed medical attention if that other person hadn’t swerved in front of me on the stairs.”
Diss – health insurance protects more than just the person covered. It protects hospitals, nurses, and doctors who want to get paid for saving peoples lives. It also protects tax payers who don’t want to pay for care for people who aren’t willing to pay for themselves.
ILPB: Didn’t want to get into any other issues; that whole health ins/car ins comparison just really, really bugs me because of the inherent major differences.
In other words, parks, the sticker price of health care is so high that it’s out of reach of the average family. I think we should spend more time reflecting on why *that* is, and see if helping to fix that straightens out some of this whole insurance mess.
Also, another argument for an insurance mandate is that not everyone has to use their car insurance. Some people don’t get into wrecks.
But everyone needs medical care at some point.
Parks: I’m not anti-health insurance; I just think it’s a bad comparison.
I hear you…the comparison isn’t perfect. But my point is that it would solve a lot of the problems (pre-existing exclusions, high insurance rates caused by high risk markets, etc.). Unfortunately, Dhoti’s right. It wouldn’t necessarily bring down the cost of health care, just health insurance.
PS – Anecdotal arguments get real old real fast (trust me, I listen to NPR every day and it’s always “This poor guy lost his insurance and then his family left him and his house burned down…all thanks the insurance company”), but I have one story for you:
Yesterday I had an Endoscopy done. It took 10 minutes and cost $1000. Seriously??? A hundred dollars a minute? Something is definitely wrong with that.
I will be the first to admit it, I’m anti Government Health Care. Keep the government from growing. We are not a socialistic country. We are not a communistic country. We are capitalistic. I’m tired of everyone saying I should be ashamed of being a “have”, and I should give to the “have nots”. I’m fortunate to be “lucky” enough to be a “have”. My wife and I worked hard to get what we have, and I am somewhat selfish in wanting to keep what I’ve earned. It should be my deciscion on whther I help the “have nots”, not some Religion or Government.
“Yes force your will upon people. It’s for the good of the nation, you must do it!!!!!” – Yea, kind of like taxes…
parks: another anecdote in reply to your Endoscopy:
A generator in a power plant in the early days of electricity begins to sound “funny”; those present don’t know what to do, so they call one of the great electricians of the day. He arrives, listens to the machine for a few moments, before taking out a screwdriver, and turning one screw forty-five degrees clockwise; the noise goes away. Soon, his bill arrives: $5000. The plant manager is astounded, and writes back asking for clarification. A second bill arrives that reads:
Travel time, gas, two minutes labor: $0.09
Knowing which screw to turn and how far to turn it: $4999.91
Yes, that would be a way we could cover pre-existing conditions because everyone would already be insured. More regulations… yes but better than government run imo.
This is already the case in the group insurance market (employer-based health insurance). If you have had prior coverage for at least 12 months (without a gap of more than 63 days), nothing can be excluded as a pre-existing condition, no matter how long you’ve had the condition. Benefits are only limited for pre-existing conditions when the insured has not had 12 months of prior coverage. And generally pre-existing condition exclusions only last for 12 months, so after 12 months on the plan, your condition should be treated like any other condition, prior coverage or no prior coverage.
@Guest
Make something clear to me. When you say “things that you did before you got insurance with them”, what exactly does this mean? And your anology of a car with a dent doesn’t make much sense to me either. If you were to get into an accident which causes a dent, I agree that the insurarer shouldn’t cover somethng that was your fault.
But how are conditions like sickle cell, cancer, or tumors something “you did before you got insurance with them”? I don’t think my aunt, who had full body breast cancer, “did it” before she got insurance. Not trying to be rude here, just need some clearification.
Denying a person coverage for a life threatining conditon, which they didn’t even know the had, I feel, is wrong. And in some cases, inhumanely cruel.
Ah, but is it not equally wrong to foster payment off on others? After all, it’s not their fault that one develops a condition. To blame the person for a genetic condition is indeed quite silly, but the silliness remains when one wants another to take responsibility for it.
-This objectivist rebuttal brought to you by a Devil’s Advocate leafing through Fountainhead.
Or perhaps, look at it from a bigger perspective: evolutionarily speaking, to use medical means to prolong the life of someone who would be otherwise out of the gene pool is changing what constitutes fitness. While this brings in an interesting topic about evolution, culture, and what constitutes fitness in the modern day, it still remains that it weakens the populous against ___ condition. Interestingly, one could argue capitalistically that those capable of producing can afford to survive.
-This Comical perspective brought to you by a Devil’s Advocate with a sense of humor.
Of course, humans really don’t matter much in the long run. We live, we die every day. But all specks on a pale blue dot we float along. One would think that kindness would be a valued, not an exploited, virtue, as scant as human life is already. Ah, value; an interesting question. Do humans have innate worth? If so, what is it based on? Why don’t animals as well? Why don’t bacteria? How do we measure a man, or life at all? The sum of their components? Achievements? Wealth? Is it arrogant to assume ones own species, or country, or family is special enough to deserve what others have? To assume we have a higher place somehow, some god-given right? Pardon me; off to meditate.
-This strange mix of nihilism, humanism, morals, satire, and perspective brought to you by whimsy, but attributed to a Devil’s Advocate.
wait wait wait, its NOT the insurance companies fault you went and got cancer, they should deny you, infact alot of cancers are in your genes…thus you was BORN with that condition. so keep paying them but dont you ever…EVER…ask for anything back or so help them god they will deny you SO fast..then raise your rates cause your sick
Everyone deserves to be able to get affordable health insurance. If someone wakes up one day with a major condition and has to get new health insurance, they’re pretty well screwed. And who on earth can afford to get treatment for something like cancer on their own? I don’t think cancer victims would appreciate you suggesting it’s okay for insurance companies to reject them and leave them with no options for treatment.
Interesting point; let us examine this!
“Everyone deserves to be able to get affordable health insurance”
Now, let us start with the basic questions:
-Who? –Everyone: Every human on the planet. This is made clear, right?
-What? –Affordable heath insurance. Now, this one begs another question: “what is affordable?” We will assume here that the meaning is “that one (everyone) can afford to pay for within their own means, without causing a major change in one’s life style, finance, or existence”
-When? –Unsure; presumably, now.
-Where? –Not explicit; presumably, everywhere.
-Why? –A difficult question. It is established that it is “deserved”, but why is it deserved? One possibility: it is a right. If this is the case, it would be granted simply by existing (as a human), which covers the grand majority of the people in the world (sorry; no martians). For the sake of time (er…space?), we will assume this is the case.
-How? –Hmmm….ok, that’s a lot of people. Let us neglect the troublesome international issues for the moment. We still have a gigantic population to take care of. The first thing that’s needed is doctors, for without doctors, there can be no health care. If there are enough doctors in the world to care for all the people, good; let’s move on. If not, more doctors must be trained, which is a task for schools. Perhaps incentives can be provided for being doctors ($), but as only the best and brightest are able to make it through med school, this may not be enough. Lowered standards would also help to cure this problem, but cause another of their own. This is further compounded by what is requested: a doctor spends so much time and training, that it is assumed to be his livelihood. It, therefore, must be worth a doctor’s time to be a doctor; otherwise, he will go off and be, say, a taxi driver. This becomes another problem: doctors will get their payment from the (deserved) insurance. In all likelihood, a doctor will not be able to set his price by the market, and instead be payed what the regulations say he should be payed. This conflicts with the incentives for new doctors. Also, this threatens to become a terrible mess of bureaucracy dealing with what is insurable, at what cost, and how.
I think perhaps I’m not quite getting the picture here; my “how” section I’m almost certain is missing something. Any thoughts?
easy, enslave doctors and make them like preists…they have to take a vow of poverty to be a doctor..
Those are monks and only certain orders of monks too. Priest’s, Pastor’s, Ministers etc can have all the wealth and worldly goods they can get their hands on.
You’re right, the public option has to be done.
I know you were being sarcastic, I just don’t care.
Hee hee. Ditto.
And before someone starts ranting about how I should get a better education and a better job so I can afford my health insurance, I CAN. My husband and I have five college degrees between us and great jobs. Just unlike many people, I can see that many people don’t.
Besides, I was just notified that our insurance will go from $6K this year to $6900 next year. (Plus out of pocket not covered items.) A lot of people can’t afford $500 per month for insurance. And ours is CHEAP. Yet it increases double digits almost every year. Pretty soon even we won’t be able to afford it.
Our public teachers got a raise that was so little that their health insurance increases more than sucked it up. (We have some of the worst paid teachers in the country, btw.)
We need options that don’t involve for-profit health care.
I’m tired of saying you should use the British model. Insurance companies are not involved, so that’s one lot of parasites you don’t have to pay for. And you don’t have to worry you’re going to lose your house if you go down with something bad. Sure you pay more tax but nothing like $6900 per year for a family. The per capita spend is about half and the quality of healthcare is probably about the same on average. It’s just insurance on a national scale but with no profit motive. The problem for the US is having to start the whole thing from now rather than 60 years ago…
“Yet it increases double digits almost every year.”
I don’t suppose it occurs to anybody that each year you get older, or more specifically, each year past your late twenties, the more likely you are to consume more and more costly medical services, eh?
To provide some numbers, back in my twenties, my average medical costs were somewhere around $20/month for everything. For the last two years, the average has been more like $1,200/month, and that’s with no major health problems. Even when adjusted for inflation, I’m using more medical services at 50 than I did at 25.
We need options that don’t involve insulating the consumer from the cost so that market forces hold prices down.
so that market forces *are able to* hold prices down.
*brain fart*
I figured it out. We used about $2000 in services (half for a mammogram) last year. And paid about $2000 out of pocket.
I agree that consumers should know exactly how much services cost.
Market forces? Yes, figure out how the market forces will hold down the billions paid in bonuses.
For an example of market forces keeping prices down (I’m not envious enough to worry about somebody elses bonus, I just focus on what the cost to the end-user is), just look at cosmetic surgery.
Elective cosmetic surgery is every bit as complex as other areas of medical practice, but is not covered by any conventional medical insurance plan.
Since the price of a boob job comes right out of the consumer’s pocket, the costs have to continually be driven down while the quality of the outcome is improved, or the provider will lose business to his competitor down the street.
Just a few decades ago, boob jobs cost half a year’s average salary, nowadays it’s closer to a few months average rent.
Geez. It’s not about envy. It’s a fact that we have a for profit health insurance system that includes such things as huge bonuses, the costs of which are added to the prices paid for health care.
I understood your point about costs. I understand the concept of controlling costs. Heck, I don’t even believe in free health care. I believe in not for profit affordable health care. I happen to think it’s a really bad idea if someone makes more money if they tell someone else no, they don’t need a particular service that that person’s doctor has said is needed.
BTW, -my- health insurance prices are not determined by my age.
Without profit, there’s no incentive to do better than the competition. Bonuses and other forms of executive compensation are used by companies to compete for the best executives.
Personally, I’d prefer that my insurance company have the very best CEO, CFO, etc., that way, the company can make the health insurance industry average 3% net profit, rather than a 3% net loss that would make them go out of business.
I have a fairly large extended family with more than a few nurses in it, so we end up hearing more than we want to about everybody’s nuts, guts and butts, the medical care thereof, and the related insurance difficulties.
I have a nephew on MediCal, and a brother whose family coverage is better than what Congress gets, so I’ve seen the entire spectrum. Amongst several dozen people, there has never been a case of the type of gratuitous denial of coverage that keeps getting tossed about as if it happened to everybody all the time. Sure, it does happen, but if you and your doc play by the rules, denials of coverage are extremely rare.
If *your* insurance premium isn’t based on your age, then you likely have employer provided insurance where the price is based on the oldest/worst-risk person at your company, OR, you live in some parallel universe.
My ex boyfriend couldn’t even get coverage in this state because he had diabetes. Working part time for minimum wage there was no way he could have afforded the appointments and insulin on his own. He finally manged to find a company in Texas that would insure him but it meant he had to move to Tx.
Two questions:
Does your state not have Medicaid?
Wouldn’t it be great if that Texas insurance company could sell coverage in your state?
BTW, legalizing the sale of health insurance across state lines is a key feature of the GOP health insurance reform plan, but is not part of Obamacare.
If I remember there was some catch that made him ineligible, though I can’t remember the details as it’s been awhile. This was about 8 years ago.
About the only catches with Medicaid are if you’re living with parents who claim you as a dependent, or if you make enough money to afford insurance and co-pays.
Off the top of my head, we have a few insulin users in the extended family, some with private health insurance, at least one on Medicaid, none have gone without treatment.
So theoretically he could afford health insurance. I don’t know if that’s true but let’s say he can. So he’s now excluded from Medicaid. But he can’t get health insurance because they consider him too much of a risk. Now he’s screwed.
Not to contradict you, but that’s contradictory; if he can afford it, it means he can afford it. If they refuse to take him, or up him into a higher cost bracket, I do believe that fits the “can’t afford it” definition…right?
A nifty catch22 otherwise though.
Oh yes, and let us point out: He couldn’t get coverage, moved, and got coverage. Success for the adaptable human; good for him! If he could get covered elsewhere, and had no strong motivations to stay, it’d be like a smoker complaining about getting lung cancer…while taking a puff.
One clarification, while it’s not a case of coverage denial after the fact, the only instances where I’ve witnessed coverage of medically necessary service being denied was when seeking advance approval from no-competition, not-for-profit Medicare.
Rando
I can’t tell if you were speaking to me or someone else, but just in case, I actually wasn’t being sarcastic. We DO need a public option. I just don’t like the one proposed by the Dems.
LIFE is a frigging pre-existing condition.
If you are alive, you will need care for something serious at least once in your life. It is a shameful scam for insurance companies to promise coverage and then play “gotcha” just when you need them the most, or to blackball you afterwards. Doesn’t matter how perfectly healthy you’ve been up until now. So was I, until I developed Grave’s Disease at the age of 31. At some point, you will suffer some kind of outrageous fortune, because that is life.
The health care system ought to make profits from keeping people well, as in preventative care, not gouging them when they’re sick.
Wait…..
Doesn’t the goverment get its money from taxes?
So your creating a choice between taxes
and death panels…
hmmm
The only thing I can think of is … perhaps a New Orleans jazz funeral?
And smacky — right on! If they took all the money for all the ads that have been blasting the health plans, they could pay for decent health care for every person in this country …
The reply button is your friend.
You keep saying that but WE HATES THE REPLY BUTTONSES
Nasty tricksy reply buttonses, it tricksed us precious!
What, you mean this button?
Dios de la Muertos I believe. It’s spanish for Day of the Dead. It’s a traditional holiday I think it may be exclusive to Mexico but I could be wrong. It’s celebrated the day after Halloween.
Dia de los Muertos is from Mexico. It’s celebrated in some states, including here (NM).
Default – you made me giggle because your “Dios de la Muertos” actually means “God of the Dead”. Day of Anubis!!
Come on people! Look at my name. You should know this.
*stands in corner in shame* I knew that too! In fact I blame you! Seeing Dios in your name made me think of that when I was trying to type Dia! *has found a scapegoat and is safe from all blame now*
I would just like to point out that I didn’t correct you. But mostly because I didn’t think of Hel’s clever joke!
It’s cool, as long as I have someone to blame
WHY DO YOU THINK THAT “ME” PANELS ARE A BAD IDEA?
Deadpool certainly liked you.
WAS THAT THE DAREDEVIL VILLAIN OR THE DIRTY HARRY FILM THAT YOU MEANT THERE?
The marvel assassin. He fell in love with you.
Are you talking about the lady Death? Didn’t Thanos and Mephisto both fall for her at times?
Yeah.
Ahhh geeks of the world unite.
In this town we call home
Everyone hail to the pumpkin song!
Oh, there’s an empty place in my bones
That calls out for something unknown
The fame and praise come year after year
Does nothing for these empty tears…
Hey! Christmas is coming! Maybe….
It must be the death panel from hell — they have Accordions!!
HA HA
IT WAS THE WHITE HOUSE HALLOWEEN PARTY……………….REALLY.
Fools. With 50 million murdered babies since Roe v Wade, you DO have death panels. Your right to choose ends when you decide to have sex. What are you? Wild animals given to the passion of the moment? Oh, and to Iggloo McCoy and any other atheist out there:
Florida Court Sets Atheist Holy Day!
You must read this…..a proper decision by the courts..for a change.
FLORIDA COURT SETS ATHEIST HOLY DAY
In Florida, an atheist created a case against the upcoming Easter and Passover Holy days. He hired an attorney to bring a discrimination case against Christians and Jews and observances of their holy days… The argument was that it was unfair that atheists had no such recognized days.
The case was brought before a judge. After listening to the passionate presentation by the lawyer, the judge banged his gavel declaring, “Case dismissed!”
The lawyer immediately stood objecting to the ruling saying, “Your honor, How can you possibly dismiss this case? The Christians have Christmas, Easter and others. The Jews have Passover, Yom Kippur and Hanukkah, yet my client and all other atheists have no such holidays..”.
The judge leaned forward in his chair saying, “But you do… Your client, counsel, is woefully ignorant.”
The lawyer said, “Your Honor, we are unaware of any special observance or holiday for atheists.”
The judge said, “The calendar says April 1st is April Fools Day. Psalm 14:1 states, ‘The fool says in his heart, there is no God.’ Thus, it is the opinion of this court, that, if your client says there is no God, then he is a fool. Therefore, April 1st is his day. Court is adjourned.” You gotta love a Judge that knows his scripture!
Phblttt.
I hope the judge didn’t really say that. I guarantee he won’t have a job soon. Either way, if a person doesn’t believe anything than it’s absolute attention grabbing to try and get one. There’s no reason to.
Ignoring your straw man about atheism, you have just claimed that approximately 1 in 3 of the female population of the USA have had an abortion since 1973. If you can’t see why that makes your posts utterly fatuous, I feel truly sorry for you.
That’s what Planned Parenthood says: “In fact, more than 1 out of 3 women in the U.S. have an abortion by the time they are 45 years old”.
A study I’ve seen widely cited on all sides of the debate estimates more than 45 million legal abortions from 1973 to 2005.
Wow, owned.
The atheist holy day blather is: a) a hoax, b) a joke, c) a certain person’s wet dream, or d) all of the above. Regardless, it is not reality. The rest of your post is as suspect.
While the majority of the post may be crap, I have heard of that before.
You have heard his post before because it is almost verbatim from a viral email (you can find it on snopes.com {http://www.snopes.com/politics/religion/atheist.asp}), which, btw, is FALSE.
You know, we don’t get work off for April Fools. I think this is your fault somehow.
Also: What is this about omelets? They’re tasty? Yes, yes, I agree. I like them with cheese myself.
It’s a hoax
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/a/atheist-holiday.htm
-noodles-
cause courts have to take LAWS and FACTS into cases
not mythology and supersition no matter how much you cling to your zeus or saturn or who ever
Sorry my Saturns in the shop. I’m busy clinging to this Ram.
you just dodge ing the question
I’d rather have a Taurus than a Ram any day of the week.
Now you’re just not Focus ing. You need to do things of your own Accord.
sooo how bout a hummer?
next thing you know he’ll be asking to Probe you with his Bighorn and expect you to let his Amigo watch…
you need to Vanquish those thoughts
I think we’ve let this Escalade out of control. I think I’d like to Escape from this thread right about now.
You’re being awfully Impala-ite.
no really, who wants to give bitter troll a hummer? charro? is charro here? no the steve your not allowed….-wanders off looking for charro-
Um….what kind of candy, bitter…….?
snickers, reeses cups, butterfingers, roofies, big red gum, crunch bars, and candy necklaces
Oh, can I get into your van? Those are all my favorites…..Wait, I don’t want to upset Charro……it’s only about the candy, promise
-checks for handcuff size- of course not…
I have my own if your’s don’t fit.
just get in there…have some candy…put on this pretty tinkerbell outfit too if you would be so kind
My boobs keep falling out of the top…is that okay? Now, where’s the chocolate and roofies?
here ya go….take two …dont know how long till charro gets here then we can play fun games
“Your right to choose ends when you decide to have sex.”
Please tell me that’s a typo.
Not from this particular sanctimonious, preachy, religio-troll it doesn’t.
Sometimes not having the right to choose DURING sex can be very interesting…
I think that might be a pretty creepy statement for most women to read.
In defence of keithybabes, I believe he was referring to a little consensual B&D……which can be very interesting….
Yes, having ‘chatted’ with him before, I can believe that. It’s still kind of creepy the way it reads. We must embrace the smilies.
Good point. I think one of those evil grinning devils would have been perfect for his post, don’t you?
I think maybe this one:
Yep, I just don’t know how to make that one.
Ah colontwistedcolon — replacing colon with a : of course!
Twisted colon is no fun.
much worse than any titty twister I’ve recieved.
Okay like this
Yah, canuck! You get to be one of the cool kids now.
I’m a cool kid? Wow, I’ve never been one before. Yay me!!
I believe that’s what causes colic in horses.
I’ve not had to suffer it myself, but it’s a fairly common way to lose horses, if they go colicky and manage to lay down and roll around a lot. (You’d usually call it something else though, I am sure.)
I think it’s harder for humans to get it, thankfully!
mabsba: Oh, missed your comment! Yeah, it can probably be the pother way around too. The world of “Things That Kill Horses” is much larger than the puny little Earth we live on, and far more complex, I think. (It’s a wonder any of them survive, really.)
My dear old thing, I think we might have a situation summed up by this old lol (clicky). Don’t take me so seriously…
Reminds me of a joke I heard. How many feminists does it take to change a light bulb? *serious angry face* That’s not funny.
*snerk*
Your god thinks you’re an a$$hole. And we don’t like you either.
Oh my, you’re back?
He’s been doing this for as long as I have been on PK. He makes one or two inflammatory posts on base level (as Ioannis or as Paul Primavera) and never responds to responses. He just wants to stir people up, and manages quite well.
So a standard little troll? Maybe if we ignore it, it will go away.
I dare you to look at his website. It’s a hoot.
I’m not sure if I should. I think my head might implode. I’ll have to do that when I get home though. Don’t want to read it here and fly into a fit of rage on my work computer. I think the company would frown on that…
Yeah – maybe. At any rate, it’s not worth spending any time writing anything coherent addressed to it.
Oh, I rarely write anything coherent. So no worries there.
Hehe.
-hugs the insane man-
thank you, we can argue about how insane you are for days…
He could take meds for that. Maybe he should be forced to do so.
*crunches down on some Clozapine* Delish! And makes the voices go away.
DONT DO WHAT VIGO TELLS YOU TOO!
The Scourge of Carpathia, the sorrow of Moldavia, command you!
Vigo, Vigo, you’ve been a bad monkey!
and there was a prophocy right before his head died
Come on! Let Candy out of your van now!
Why are you came?!
WTF is up with lunatic pro-lifers who preach to all of us like screaming “murdered babies” or pictures of fetuses are going to change our minds. Ranting and raving like this just makes YOU look like a jackass and does NOTHING for your cause. Just like the truck I saw the other day, your post is offensive. As a Christian, I’m embarrassed that you claim to be the same religion as me. When Jesus thinks of you, he facepalms.
Now lets go throw blood on old ladies to protest the use of FUR!!! and totally look totally sane
I really want to know where the anti-fur people get the blood from? *shakes head in confusion*
Everyone must donate at least a pint.
they get it discount from all the cows they kill , to prevent farmers from holding them hostage..but knows they cant set them free!
*runs to the supermarket and begins throwing open all the glass doors in the refrigerator area* Be free little proto-chickens! Be free gallons of cow milk! *encourages them to run out of the store to freedom before being she’s carted away by the nice doctors with the white coats.*
Lol…vegan blood substitute? I don’t know. (BTW, I never heard of that book prior to googling “vegan blood substitute” but it kinda sounds like a hoot so I linked to it.)
Is that for the vegan vampire crowd?
Apparently so.
Or better yet hope on hundreds of buses to go portest Greenhouse gases!!!
ooh ooh we could destroy our own neighborhood with rioting, pillaging, and burning to protest a verdict.
WAIT!! I got it, let’s be total jacka$$es and go protest at a soldier’s funeral, you know the guy who died preserving your right to protest.
Hey, the Patriot Guard took care of that here!
I love the way A LOT fewer people responded to your points that are just as valid.
Summer is Icumen in
Loudly sing cuckoo
Grows the seed and blows the mead
And springs the wood anew
Sing cuckoo
Ewe bleats harshly after lamb
Cows after calves make moo
Bullock stamps and deer champs
Now shrilly sing cuckoo
Cuckoo, cuckoo
Wild bird are you
Be never still cuckoo
Not friggin’ summer where I am, pal.
Not the kind of band you would book to play at a retirement home…
I think this was the protest on the Death of Education held at UC Santa Barbara on November 24, 2009. The students were protesting fee increases etc
It could be that or it could be something to do with the Mexican Day of the Dead (The “Christian” celebration that replaced Huey Miccailhuitl (The Great Feast of the Dead), the Aztec ceremony in which the dead were remembered and celebrated. Many of the Festivals held in Mexico nowadays have some connection with the old Aztec Rituals. (Much like Christianity has done in other Countries. Christianity attempts to conquer Paganism, but people never forget their pagan roots and even though they claim to be Christian, pagan elements remain – Dressing the Tree at Christmas, the Yule Log, Halloween, etc.)
So this is what those dudes in Karate Kid do after they are done kicking the crap out of Daniel-son.
*snerk* +1 interwebs for VNV
see Mr Miyagi whooped them all bad and was totally like ” dudes..go play some music it will sooth the fact i beat up a bunch of 16 year olds and might get arrested for it”
No wonder they took Karate. Bunch of band nerds…
Hey! Don’t talk about the band nerds like that! *grabs flute and sobs in corner*
-leans over mina shoulder- is ok, bitter troll took some band too. hey ever american pie?
Yes, and before this joke goes any further I would like to say that I never went to band camp and I’ve never had an inappropriate relationship with any musical insturment. That being said… OMG I FREAKIN’ LOVE THAT MOVIE!!!!!!!!!!1111!!!11!!!1
I call BS on your lack of a physical relationship with your instrument. Just saying.
No, but I do know a guy who got a little… um… “friendly” with his trumpet.
I really didn’t get overly friendly with my flute. Now, if you want to talk about my history with the drum line, that might be a different story.
I am open for story time, and time you want to tell it.
bitter troll will bring the popcorn
I’m sure if I tried to tell it here, the admins would not like it.
well email bitter troll the story…with pictures!
Aw, now, as long as you keep the dirty words down, you’ll be fine. Now get storytelling!!
story time story time!
bitter troll wants to wax on…wax off
*narrows eyes* Bitter Troll, have you ever seen the Tortuga Twins?
that the chick from boy meets world?
mina – i was a band geek too. and i marched for 8 seasons, so i did attend 8 band camps. however, my saxophone and i never got personal. as for the tortuga twins, i still get their newsletter but they’ve stopped coming to my local faire.
I bet he had a little piccolo
Maybe she doesn’t consider “oral” innapropriate…
(betting the odds that she played wind or brass, else it loses the funny)
Yeah, I play the flute.
just put your lips togther..and blow
Bad bands suck. Good bands blow.
so bitter troll wants both bad band and good band at the same time
I played the trumpet. Didn’t know anyone to get freaky with their instruments, but the flutists always seemed to enjoy themselves at camp.
Now, I’m no expert, but from what I’ve heard wouldn’t actually sticking a flute up there kinda hurt?
BW- from what I heard, they not only enjoyed themselves, but anyone else they could as well. ^_^
Rando- there’s no way I can answer that without incriminating myself, so I plead the 5th.
I promise no flutes were ever involved, but I KNOW the flutists enjoyed themselves.
No flutes where harmed in the makeing of this thread…a few hamsters but ya know..screw it
You screwed a hamster!?
ROTFLMAO!!!!!
Its ok Mina. Just don’t hurt Daniel-son and I won’t judge. Remember, he is new in town and only knows Karate from a book.
I would never hurt Daniel-san. I’ve seen what happens to people who hurt Daniel-san.
they get to be jerks in other movies and make alot of money? most likely get laid alot?
I’m forming my own Death Panel. We’ll be more proactive.
Previous death panels just haven’t been AGGRESSIVE enough.
an aggressive DEATH PANEL with chainsaws?
That works best, you know. And is more fun.
perhaps if we held american gladiators style combat to decide if they get health care or not…the rateings and advertisements for pay for it all!
WHEN I WAS
Pssst, Grandpa, you fell asleep in the middle of a sentence again. Ok, when you were my age…..? Oh, and turn up your hearing aid. You’re yelling.
Don’t wake him up Diss, he’s just gonna tell about how he walked five miles in the snow up hill both ways. He always tell that story!
Oooh, good point. *tiptoes out leaving the Weather Channel on full blast, because that’s what Grandpa likes to watch…*
In love?
A YOUNG BOY
IN ‘NAM
Your age?
in band camp.
i stuck a
snare drum in
when I was a young boy in love, one day
*starts singing* Seventeen, it was a very good year, it was a very good year for small town girls and soft summer nights…
….just a little girl, I asked my mother, what will I be? Will I be pretty, will I be rich? Here’s what she said to meeeeee….
“Unemployed or working in Macdonalds. No, you’re ugly live with it. Nope you’ll be on welfare. Now get back to scrubbing the grate you silly cow”
when I was a young boy in love, one day in band camp i stuck a $100 bill
down the throat of my trombone
your trombone can deep throat?
YAY!! That’s what we need here some hot Piccolo to Trombone action
and went trolling for hookers in the trailer park
and ended up getting hitched..
which really hurt!
to Earl’s brother!
aw! that’s great costume. but take care of your little children, they might be scared or afraid to them.
Oh, no you don’t!, I gasped
jim…reply button…use it….pause for breath…what you say might make sense
this stuff is far more difficult than it would at first appear…..
well work on common sense and decencey first, then the reply button
You gotta walk before you can crawl.
Speaking of common sense, here is the chairman of the DNC saying that Obama is implementing both capitalism and socialism. Big surprise. Nice of him to clue in a few of the libs on this site. Unfortunately it’s not often these guys will just come out and tell you their plans. Sometimes its a matter of being able to see the obvious.
{http://dailybail.com/home/dncs-howard-dean-declares-instead-of-capitalism-or-socialism.html}
Yeah. So? Guess what, screaming “socialism” at a bunch of liberals will get you nowhere. You might as well scream “OMG, you’re really LIBERAL!!!” while expecting them to freak.
You mean like how some people are screaming “conservative” at others who disagree with them?
The difference for me is that conservative has a positive connotation and liberalism has very negative connotations, so liberals become “progressives”; dems become “independents”. It is a shell game. You can’t ever pin these guys down, they corrupt the language trying to hide who they are.
I believe the idea that either conservative or liberal have a positive or negative connotation is mistaken. I know many people who are quite proud to define themselves with one or the other term and see no insult in it.
It’s not so much a matter of insulting, it’s a matter of being ashamed to let people know your true political views. After Carter you couldn’t find a self-proclaimed liberal to save your life. That was true all through the 80s and the 90s. All of a sudden there were only “independents” (i.e. crypto Dems). There are still a few of them around today. Dems in everything but name. They obviously can’t stand Republicans, but can’t bring themselves to admit they are Dems. Even Clinton packaged himself as a “New” Democrat, he wasn’t of course, but that was how he portrayed himself. I suspect that after a few years of Dems controlling Congress and the White House it will get bad enough that the libs will go into hiding again. Look at the way the libs on this site already hit on Hillary, Pelosi, Rahm, Biden, and Reed. Why else would the Dems turn on Lieberman?
For a real liberal freak-out it’s best to scream “We are out of espresso and steamed milk!!!” before you scream “socialism”.
Socialatte?
Can I get mine with mocha and hazelnut and soy?
Diss – think I frothed some of that coffee through my nose. Ow.
The point is that Dean admitted Obama’s policies are socialist, which most people recognized once he started implementing them. Here though, it was denied time and time again. The problem is not having socialists, the problem is having socialists who deny they are socialists. Had Obama been honest about his policies and his associates, he would have been rejected. Now that people can see who he is and what he stands for, he will be rejected; he and a good number of Dems as well. There is nothing like having Dems in power to remind voters how bad things can be.
“There is nothing like having Dems in power to remind voters how bad things can be.”
Same could be said of Republicans.
No, thats where you are wrong. When you have 16 percent unemployment 10 years after a recession starts, you have FDR. When socialism is on the march and they put up a wall across Berlin and missiles in Cuba, you have JFK. When you have 21 percent mortgage interest rates and stagflation, you have Carter. When you have a debt increase equal to all the debt accumulated in the history of the country as well as nothing in your economic plan that comes close to creating jobs, you have Obama. Dems are in their own league when it comes to putting this country in the hole.
“both capitalism and socialism”
Isn’t that just “mixed economy” which is what practically all developed states including the US have been using for … quite some time now?
Yes, but keep it down about that. Real patriotic Americans want nothing to do with durty, durty S-O-C-I-A-L-I-S-M and will NEVER admit that our economy has been mixed for a very long time. We are, always have, and will always be a CAPITALIST country, gosh darn it!!! /sarcasm
‘Sides, you’re going to make jim’s head explode.
how come w dont call them LIFE pannels?
*headdesk*
Hey, can I have a piece of candy?
sure – offers a butterfinger-
My favorite.
Uhm…Mina, it’s not “Butterfinger”. It’s BT’s finger covered in butter.
no its candy….bart simpson approved!
I think that’s stuff from Day of the Dead, but I don’t know for sure. Is it?
no its the white house halloween this year
This “pro muderer” only believe abortions should be allowed to happen in those circumstances.
Any other situation should be a decsion amongst the family.
Pro murder crowd? Oh you did NOT just say that.
JustaCarolinian – I have a question for you about ”pro-murder”
Remember the news story that came out of Brazil in February/March of this year? The Catholic Church there called for the excommunication of the mother of a nine-year-old girl. This was because the mother arranged for the abortion of her daughter’s twins conceived by rape. The rapist was the child’s stepfather.
A pregnancy of twins can be difficult and dangerous even for a fully grown mature female. In a 9 year old, it could have proved fatal – it could have literally ripped her apart inside.
The child’s mother had a difficult choice – ”murder” the unborn twins or risk the ”murder” of her 9 year old daughter.
My question for you JAC is – had you been the parent of that little Brazilian girl, what would you have done?
My personal views on abortion have been expressed perfectly by Kn0wledge1ne, and HelOnWheels got things spot on when she/he said that a term such as pro-murder is inflammatory and not conducive to promoting discussions.
My point is that the circumstances surrounding the abortion choice are not always straightforward.
Justa, I have a question for you about ”pro-murder”
Cast your mind back to March of this year of a news story that came out of Brazil. The Catholic Church there had called for the excommunication of the mother of a 9 year old girl who had arranged for the abortion of the girl’s twins. The twins were conceived by rape, and the rapist was the child’s step-father.
A pregnancy involving twins can be difficult and dangerous even for a fully grown woman. In a child of only nine years of age, it could have proved fatal – it could have literally ripped her apart.
The child’s mother had an awful decision to make – ”murder” the unborn twins or risk the ”murder” of her nine year old daughter.
My question for you is this – had you been the parent, what would you have chosen to do?
My own personal views on abortion are the same as those expressed by Kn0wledge1ne, and I agree with HelOnWheels when she/he said that your use of the term ”pro-murder” is inflammatory and not conducive to promoting discussion.
My point is that the decision to have an abortion is not always a straightforward one.
JAC, that’s not fair to use that term. Being pro-choice does NOT mean one is pro-abortion. There is a difference.
I hate abortion.
I love freedom, and I don’t think the government needs to take away the choice of the people. Imposing my morals upon others isn’t fair, if they don’t beleive abortion is wrong, who am I to tell them otherwise. As such, I’m pro-choice.
I say let God judge them.
So why stop at the womb? Bill the little bastards right up till they leave the house.
Exactly. I support a woman’s right to choose, but I don’t think I could ever abort a child…unless it was dire circumstances.
It’s blunt, but it’s absolutely fair — there are people who are anti-abortion but pro-choice, and there are people who are simply pro-abortion.
Ignoring that distinction so that you (and here I mean the royal anti-abortion, pro-choice “you”, not you specifically, Hel) can sleep better at night about you both being in the pro-choice tent does no one any favors — and in fact it keeps the number of abortions high.
I wasn’t ignoring the distinction. All I’m saying is that using the term “pro-murder” is inflammatory, and a generalization and not conducive to promoting discussions. There are some people who are pro-abortion and not just pro-choice.
“in fact it keeps the number of abortions high”
That’s like saying that religious teachings keep the number of full-term teen pregnancies high.
Much better phrased than my argument. Grassyass.
Actually, if we could get a moratorium on the terms “pro-murder” AND “forced pregnancy”, I think it might help with the level of civil discourse.
I agree. In fact, why not expand that freedom to more than just unborn children? Parents should have free choice until the child is 18.
Don’t you hear what you are saying? You are saying that there is no inherent evil in taking a life. You are saying that it’s not ok for me to “impose” my morality of not murdering fellow human beings on others. Really? I’m so sorry if my considering murder wrong is stepping on your toes!
Is it my place to judge people for killing their unborn children? No, it’s not. You’re right…it’s God’s place. However, isn’t it my responsibility to fight for laws that uphold a universal standard of right and wrong? And where does that universal standard come from? From men? From our cultural whims?
Murder has been wrong for as long as humans have been on this planet. That doesn’t change. If you don’t believe in objective morality, then you are kidding yourself. If morality is just what we make it, we are doomed to an existence of following whatever feels right at the time. We will always just make the law reflect what makes us happy in the moment. And that is not law. It’s a flexible (and therefore corruptible) joke.
Sorry, I know I sound preachy, but I get really upset when I hear people say “it’s not my place to impose my morality on others”. That makes only make sense when we are talking about things that aren’t obviously wrong. Murder is obviously and inarguably wrong. Period. You don’t have to judge people. Just make it illegal like it should be.
Agreed. Inflammatory terminology doesn’t help anything.
I, for one, will continue to use the term “Forced Pregnancy” for as long as the term “Pro-Life” continues to be used by those who favor the death penalty and unlimited asymetric wars waged largely against civilian populations.
Hey, why not? My mom could return to working in the ER to help with the crash hysterectomies for women who perforate their uteri with coat hangers! She says that sometimes they could even save their lives.
I don’t believe abortion is murder and your god is not my god.
I just wanted to say that I totally understand what you’re talking about here. I’d categorize myself as “reluctantly in favor of retaining legal elective abortion in the first trimester” just on the basis of the spectre of the public health issue of illegal back-alley and self-inflicted abortions; with later-term abortions dealt with as necessary for dire maternal or fetal medical issues. However, I’ve thought before that saying “Well, if you’re against abortion, don’t have one” is similar to saying “If you’re against slavery, don’t own any slaves,” as it’s a similarly complicated question of human rights and whether a certain class of humans is deemed to have the same level of human rights as another. Just my two cents.
“You are saying that there is no inherent evil in taking a life.”
No, that’s not what I’m saying. Don’t go putting words in my mouth (or TS’s mouth for that matter). For me to be saying that I have to believe what you believe and I don’t. You’re not sorry for being preachy, you’re doing a great job of it and judging people based on YOUR “morality” and beliefs.
While murder may be obviously and inarguably wrong (that’s actually rather circular, murder being defined as illegal killing, as opposed to legal killing), abortion is apparently not obviously or inarguably murder, since, y’know, a large number of people disagree and argue about that.
I believe in objective, universal morality, and that it is the responsibility of all of humanity to create a universal legal system that conforms to whatever we can determine is objectively moral. However, how shall we obtain such knowledge? Is it even possible? I think whatever we do find will be through logic, be very limited in scope, and still depend upon unprovable assumptions.
I agree with your assertion that if there is no objective morality, or if we do not recognize its existence, then we are doomed to an endless game of people manipulating the rules so that they benefit them personally. I strongly suggest looking up “nomic” for more insight, though it seems that few of those who play it or similar games ever grasp the consequences.
Yes, make it illegal. That will fix everything.
That way black market surgeons could perform the abortions like they do in other countries. They could make more money than legitimate doctors, and they wouldn’t be held accountable for killing or maiming paitents.
At least this way the operations are being performed by licensed surgeons in sterile, safe environments.
MAKING SOMETHING ILLEGAL DOES NOT STOP IT
*takes another bong rip*
Idiot.
Man, you’re awfully rational and polite. You must actually BE a Canadian?
I would love it if you could flesh out the argument that abortion is not murder, but we both know you can’t. Too many ex-pro-choice doctors have changed their stances to be pro-life after coming to the conclusion that a fetus is a living human being and should have all the same rights as you and me. Unfortunately, the logic is too simple.
1) Living humans have the right to live (aka not be murdered).
2) Fetuses are living humans.
3) Therefore, fetuses have the right to live (aka not be murdered).
If you are getting hung up on number 2, please explain.
I could care less what God you chose to serve. That doesn’t change the act of murder any more than it does if you gun someone down in the streets.
Worst argument in the pro-choice camp if you ask me.
“They’re going to do it anyway, so why not make it legal and safe?” is a weak and unsustainable argument.
Why don’t we take that argument to the pro-drug front? Let’s let drug companies make heroin and we can give free syringes out to everyone so that we can cut down on AIDS and contaminated narcotics.
Why does everyone assume we will go back to the days of the back alley abortion? There is no stigma against the single mother these days, and there are so many people looking to adopt. I can’t imagine anyone doing anything like that these days unless they were mentally unstable already.
Um, yeah, I’m totally in favor of needle exchange programs. And why not legalize drugs and tax the crap out of them the way we do alcohol and tobacco?
What, you never heard of needle exchange programs?
Great idea!
Legalize and regulate it, all of it. There would be no more deaths from “bad batches” or accidental overdoses from drug users getting product that was more pure or potent than they expected.
There is not one single peice of evidence that shows that decriminalization and regulation would lead to increased use. See countries that have already done so…
More people die from tobacco every year than all other illicit drugs COMBINED. And yet, tobacco is legalized and regulated. The same can be said for alcohol.
People make choices, if they die from those choices it is no ones fault but their own. The government is not my mother or my father, I am an adult and I can make my own informed decisions.
And before you cry “THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!” It was way easier for me to get weed when I was underage than it was booze. Why? Because alcohol is regulated and sold by legitimate business that stand to lose a great deal by selling to a minor. Weed is easy to come by for most high school students because there is no regulation to control it’s sale.
DUDE I totally believe in the Death Penalty.
YES. I did. And forgive my anger on this one. Murder for the sake of effin. My question was simple. You get all the claims of why we must have it, yet the utmost percentage of abortions are simply birth control. And for those who think it will prevent back alley abortions, charge the woman with murder. That’s what it is.
I am, proud and…..not so loud. We apologize a lot, we’re polite and we have the best beavers around.
“You’re not sorry for being preachy” — ooo, so true. Like those people who start by saying “No offense, but…” then proceed to be incredibly offensive.
That may all be true, but his observations on moral relativism cannot be ignored just because you don’t agree with his morals.
Thought so. I grew up in WA state and just spent several days in Victoria. Blue skies in November — can you believe that? What a gorgeous city, and everyone’s so polite!
I live in Calgary and had family in BC who would call me in February to let me know their flowers were blooming…..I hated them.
I don’t know man as far as beavers go I think those hairy French woman got ya beat.
As I just spent a fair chunk of time in a US town who’s high school mascot was the beaver, I must dispute that point. Of course, I have not had an opportunity to study the beaver native in Canada, so I really have no comparison.
When life begins has always been point of contention. I will not convince you to accept my view, you will not convince me to accept yours. The fundamental point is I do not believe it to be murder. I am entitled to my beliefs, you are entitled to yours.
Then why are you using it??
“That wouldn’t help anyone”
How is that a statement of fact?
Because the moment you make a drug legal companies will take it put other things in it to make you want it more, or to lower it’s potency so you have to buy more of it etc. etc.
I say pot should be decriminalized, but not made legal. That’s the only drug with a even halfway legit reason for that.
I think that if you want to enjoy your drugs you would agree.
I don’t use drugs besides caffeine and occasionally alcohol. Have no interest in any others. But I disagree totally with you, ADM. Do it the way they do alcohol in many states — state liquor stores work great.
As for drugs besides marijuana, they should at least be decriminalized. We spend way too much money putting people in jail for them.
And why the hell should what Obama thinks affect what I think? Geez.
Who said anything about Obama?
Sorry, sorry, adm. That was parks. Forgiveness? I have chocolate pie still….
We’re cool.
*fish bump*
Even Obama doesn’t support them (anymore)>
What’s your point?
@parks: “even”? I rarely find myself agreeing with him…. besides, research has shown that needle exchange programs are effective in reducing the spread of HIV and HepC. Link to an article with internal links to the research.
Exactly. Whenever somebody starts off with “No offense…” I always say “Then you should stop talking right now.”
That’s pretty hypocritical. You don’t want me to put words in your mouth but you can tell me that I’m not sorry for coming across preachy?
and the tooth fairy!
I’m partial to the ones who start off with “Don’t take this the wrong way, but…..” That phrase immediately gets my back up.
I like that!
@ canuck: I think that’s the more polite Canadian version of ‘no offense.’
Hel: No offense, and please don’t take this the wrong way, you’re nice and all, but here… **hands Hel a Tic Tac** :-O
I admire those that say “no offense, but…” because they realize it is a choice to take offense or not. Offense can be taken, whether or not it’s intended, and by noting that that is not their intent, they might just persuade people to look at things with logic instead of emotion. It’s a shame more people can’t let go of the simple fears that lead to offense in the first place. Also, you’re offensive. Yes you. Not to me necessarily, but you offend someone just by existing. Does that offend you?
I’m glad you believe in objective morality but just because something is argued doesn’t mean it’s not objective.
What if a group of people suddenly started arguing that slavery was okay again? Does that mean slavery is no longer objectively wrong?
I don’t disagree with his morals. I do not share his religious beliefs. There is a difference.
But the moral relativism part. Morals are either objective or they aren’t and if they aren’t then there is nothing intrinsically wrong with killing that fetus (despite my thought that it’s a baby). I don’t have to make you become Christian but I won’t ever tell someone it’s ok.
And many people will disagree with you and parks and say that you’re not killing anything. It’s not a matter of killing is morally subjective. That part is objective.
Once again, this is not an argument about murder. Many people disagree with you not on a moral basis but on the religious definitions. You are arguing from a subjective moral point of view because of your definition of when life begins. Many people believe that nothing/nobody is being killed. End of story. You are NOT going to change any body’s mind here, especially on an LOL site. You can stop now. It’s not worth it. Everybody will walk away with the same opinions they had before.
Hel, yes, (okay that came out weird), we should all follow the lead of the polite Canadian who has already excused herself in pursuit of pie and candy.
Adios.
*goes to up pie offer for negatives*
Hel, out of genuine curiosity and accepting that our definitions will almost certainly differ, at what point or in what range do you personally think human life begins?
Mabs, right behind you.
Well, crap…I swear I hit post and then it just *poof* disappeared. Huh. Anyway:
Hel, out of genuine curiosity, I’d like to ask at what point or in what range you personally consider human life to start. I would add that I don’t see the determination of the starting point of life to be a religious question so much as one that’s partly biological and partly somewhat mystical in the “so, what MAKES us human?” sense.
*headdesk* I swear it disappeared…then reappeared after I retyped it. Fvck….sorry.
I still bid double the pie offer of Mabs!
But…mine is CHOCOLATE! With whipped cream and ice cream and chocolate syrup (not the imitation chocolate flavored but the real thing) and sprinkles! *checks to make sure teenager hasn’t eaten all the sprinkles*
Yes, many sprinkles!
The PK forum moderator is fsking with you Diss. To answer your question though(even if it wasn’t directed at me), I believe life begins when the fetus is big enough to survive outside the womb which is why I’m against third trimester abortions except when medically necessary. Even by late second trimester you really had plenty of time to figure out whether or not you would keep the child, have an abortion or put it up for adoption.
One of mine is Belgian Chocolate and the other is Swiss Chocolate. I would also offer a German Chocolate Cake, but the cake is a lie. I already offered ice cream, Ben and Jerry’s even. With whipped Cream AND homemade chocolate sauce AND a marachino cherry on top.
Shoot. I think DF wins. I just have chocolate cream.
*goes to find other pics to buy*
Thanks for answering me, Default.
Now I want pie…
@Diss – I was just about to walk away from this thread because similar ones have gotten really nasty and I don’t want to be involved in slime. However, you go and post an intriguing question and are nice and genuine about it. CURSE YOU!
What I’m about to say is my personal OPINION and in no way reflects any desire on my part to argue with anybody or create bad feelings. So if some of you have to then be judgmental somewhere else:
I am conflicted, Diss. I have always believed life begins when the fetus is developed sufficiently to survive outside of the womb. But I’ve seen ultrasounds of all 4 of my nephews before that viability period and now have conflicting emotions.
@Hel: Thanks. Actually, it was seeing ultrasounds of my son during the first trimester that blew my mind and made me rethink a lot of things about the concept of life….(he’s 16 now, lol!). It’s remarkable to see.
Uh, yeah, Default User, I have to disagree. Life does start before the fetus is viable. Seen it in person. I honestly don’t know what point we can say life begins. But I think it’s before viability.
Parks: Once labled a jerk, points tend to get ignored. Until you apologize and make up with everyone….. You got nailed from both conservatives and liberals here, usually puts you in the wrong…. kind of sort of. .
Change of subject: I don’t anyone lost their clothes in this thread yet. **takes off shirt to stripper music**
nesting fail–post on above thread is to watch ILPB strip!
It’s cliche, but abortion stops a beating heart.
So it that how we should define abortion? Life? If it has a beating heart, then it’s murder, and if it doesn’t, then it’s not? According to the wikipedia (name link), a human embryo has a heartbeat at 21 days after conception. So abortion anytime before that should not be murder, under that definition. However, catholicism claims that life begins at conception, not at first heartbeat. It’s a bit hard to get people to agree.
You definitely won’t convince me if you can’t even articulate them.
in troll religion, life begins at age 4..so you can test out the kid…see if you can dig the whole child rearing thing…if not you can eat it.
@ parks – can’t and chooses not to, mean different things. Canuck here chooses not to b\c it is not worth the effort. You clearly are not to be convinced of anything you don’t already agree with and Canuck doesn’t seem to agree with any of you assumptions either. My polite Canukian friend chooses to take the high road. What about you?
Please explain to me how having an honest and civil conversation about this is taking the low road.
And I don’t believe “I don’t want to state my case because I probably won’t convince you anyway” is taking the high road. It sounds more like a cop out.
Bitter reminded me of something, in Greece, it was common for an infant to be presented to it’s father after it’s birth, the father then had the choice to keep it or kill it.
Sorry, no name calling, except that whole (pretty large) accusation that Canuck is incapable of explaining his/her beliefs.
Point 2 – It is a cop out, but what is the point. I could talk to myself in the mirror all day and probably not convince myself of anything new regarding most political questions, but what is the point. I could also talk to someone who holds strong, opposite assumptions about life than me, but what is the point.
Wait, I just convinced myself of something…
So because canuck doesn’t want to get in a long, pointless argument with you about an extremely touchy subject, that’s a cop out? I consider it trying to keep things kinda pleasant around here.
Rando, all we ever do on this blog is engage in long pointless arguments. You, more than anyone should know that. We all try to convince each other that we have the best ideas and our beliefs make the most sense. But all of a sudden we don’t want to discuss this anymore?
Yes, actually…that’s the definition of copping out.
And I find it even funnier that no one has given a single piece of evidence that unborn children are not just as much a living human as you and me. Everyone is defending Canuk’s cop out, but no one is answering the question. Which says to me that it can’t be answered. But this I already knew, which I why I posed the question. There are no good responses from the pro-choice camp on this. Stop kidding yourselves. You can’t get past the logic in my post above. Fetuses are living humans.
If you want to be an honest pro-choicer, then admit that you support the killing of unborn living humans. Stop pretending.
I disagree. canuck’s not copping out or disengaging at all — he’s (?) stating pretty clearly that he considers religiously motivated arguments to be invalid, and that parks’ argument is religiously motivated. Just because he’s stating it in a passive-aggressive (and intolerant, IMHO) way doesn’t make it any less of an argument.
(Which, incidentally, leads me to something I can’t stand about Canadian culture… Canadians see themselves as tolerant, center-left, and conflict-averse. Activists exploit this by positioning themselves on the left and being sufficiently loud and belligerent.)
I agree Dhoti, but saying “You believe in God so everything you say is invalid.” isn’t a great way to argue, so while he may not be coping out he still isn’t answering the question.
I don’t know the answer to that, Dash, but here’s where I think we should start: the pro-life and pro-choice camps should get together and declare that human life has a unique dignity and is worthy of special protection, without mention of precisely when human life begins.
The pro-lifers can obviously agree to this, and so, I think, can the anti-abortion pro-choicers. It’s only the truly pro-abortion folks that can’t — mostly geezers who don’t realize Malthus was wrong and are actively working to minimize the number of poor and dark-skinned babies born in this country — and to them, good riddance.
If we can get to the point that both sides agree that human life is good, and abortion is bad, then I think we can actually start to make some progress on these issues.
Wow, miss a day, miss a lot. Not to open up this discussion again (yeah, yeah, I know, that’s basically what I’m doing). I chose not to further engage in this debate because I know how ugly this one can get and I felt it better to just say what I said and leave it. Call it copping out, avoidance, whatever, but I come here for the laughs and, sometimes, the intellectual discussions. This particular debate only ever ends in name calling and nastiness and, even though I originally engaged, I thought it best to not continue…..(and then I left work and couldn’t log back on until today, which is why the lengthy delay in my response.)
What makes a person? is it just the flesh you wear? is it the soul some believe is in your puny hooman bodies? the ability to rationalize and judge things? when does it stop being a tumor like lump of meat and become a person?
Interesting, there have been no comments on this for five days now. I guess that means that, by parksj1′s own logic, he is unable to come up with any proof, and yields to Dash’s more logical approach on the burden of proof being difficult. How very polite of him to refuse to further his point, and therefore surrender.
And, because I haven’t gotten my fill of devil’s advocacy yet for the day allow me to at the same time laud Dhoti’s desire for a compromise, and chuckle derisively at his idea of compromise. Or, to put it simply: Quite a few things are being taken for granted in his suggestion. Sill playing devil’s advocate, I would argue that you can’t prove humans have inherent value at all. A human life is worth no more just for being human then a dog, or a bacterium. Each lives and dies thinking itself the most important thing on the planet, though not always in those terms. Amusingly, the bacterium have much quieter arguments, and don’t seem to be divided on the morality of reproduction. Ooh, perhaps that makes them superior to a species in which some are convinced that everyone else must act as they do?
Hee, hee, satire is fun ^^
Comments tend to die off once a LOL is a few days old.
Oh, I figured as much; to an extent, I’m a little sad to stir it up again in fact. But I’d say that just makes my little satire funnier as the point reveals nonsense.
You call it murder when the child is outside of the womb, or if the mother is murdered. And it’s no more forcing morals on anyone than when you enforce murder or manslaughter.
One of the more thoughtful positions I have heard. It actually sounds like you weighed it out and weren’t just convinced by culture that you should agree with one side or the other. I respectfully disagree with retaining elective abortion, but I do applaud the gravity you give to the issue…gravity that this issue deserves.
honest request for numbers on that, please. No, seriously, what is the breakdown of abortions?
They did charge the mother and the doctor with murder in the old days. Illegal abortions still happened. And I personally know 3 nurses who got to witness both the medical damage produced, and the desperation of the women who had knowing taken the risk.
I do believe that life starts at fertilization. I also know that a high percentage of those embryos either fail to implant, or are rejected by the mother’s body after implantation.(40-50%, depending on the research study). I also know about many minor, and very seriously tragic birth defects which can occur. I think every happy birth is a miracle. I also hold with my own carefully considered opinion: I hope never to have to face the decision of considering an abortion, because I would prefer to have the baby if at all possible. But I will continue to vote for those candidates who support the right for women to have the option there, legal and safe, and the counselors to help them carefully think through the situation.
I had in class a student who was working as a counselor at a clinic which provides abortions and other women’s health services–they had a back door, for any woman who was being pressured by a parent or partner INTO abortion, so that she could leave without having to go back out through the waiting room and have that parent/partner try to change her mind into having the procedure done.
And if anyone were to try and take away the right for safe legal contraception (and they are out there!), I would gladly march in the streets. Griswold vs Connecticut for the WIN!
Well, for girls in high school there’s of course the stigma of being a pregnant teenager. Then there are those who simply don’t want to carry a child to term or can’t afford to, there are usually quite a few dr appointments for pregnant women, then there’s the recovery time from giving birth and alot of women will take off the last month of the pregnancy of work off because they tire so easily, can’t walk more than short distance’s and in some cases have trouble just fitting behind the wheel of the car.
Check into other countries with anti-abortion laws.
Black market abortion clinics are common.
I’m not sure about the stigma of being a pregnant teenager. When I was in high school, we had several pregnant girls (this was in the early 80s) in my senior class. The general reaction was divided between “Wow, that’s going to be really tough for you!” and “OMG babies are soooo cute!”; not a whole lot of “banish the slut for her wicked ways” even then.
I’d totally agree that pregnancy is a pain in the ass.
Many things in life are….
I don’t know if I agree with that stigma anymore either.
A girl I know was just on facebook bragging about being a single mom. For whatever that’s worth.
So someone would actually risk their lives in a back alley abortion because of some inconveniences? I just don’t buy it, I think those days are gone.
There was stigma in my high school (graduated in ’03) regarding that sort of thing. And I think you may have missed my point N00bs, not everyone can actually afford to take the time off of work that may be necessary for the pregnancy, they have bills to pay, and food to buy. They may not have insurance either.
would people risk their lives and yours by driving dangerously and at highspeeds just because of inconveniences
It has already happened. A teen didn’t want to admit to her parents that she was pregnant (in a state that requires parental approval), and she died as a result of trying to do it herself. Her parents (devastated of course) are now trying to get the parental notification laws adjusted…make sure there is an alternative that a young person can use. Nevada I think? Heard the parents on radio, anyway.
VK- Sad case, but I really don’t think that’s very common these days.
DU- There is always adoption and adoptive parents will pay for all medical expenses most of the time. There is always a way, there are many non profit agencies that assist pregnant women as well.
I’m afraid, N00bs, that you missed the point again. DU’s point was not about the child after the birth, it was about the cost and time incurred during the pregnancy itself. A pregnant mother loses work time (income), and incurs more costs.
Mind you, I’m just clarifying. If I were to play devil’s advocate here, I’d point out that “There has been no research showing that women are choosing to abort their children rather than place these children for adoption. Although the adoption rate has remained relatively steady, nationwide abortion rates have continued to decline since 1990. (Freundlich, 1998)”. You know, just to point out that the decision isn’t “abort/adoption”.
And you’re not a conservative. Really? LOL
The way I see it, just having to think about all that stuff is enough to make you ill. The other week I got something in my eye that felt like a hedgehog, couldn’t find any way of locating it, and it was a Sunday morning: no opticians open. So I just toddled along to A & E, waited half an hour, got seen to, went away with ointment and an eye patch, and nobody mentioned money, there were no forms, nothing. And my younger brother spent three months in hospital recently, much of it in intensive care, again no cost, no fuss. That peace of mind is worth a lot.
Unfortunately, that “Single payer system” would be the government, and look how badly they’ve screwed up Medicare and Medicaid ! How many hospitals have closed in the last ten years, mostly due to Medicare? Over a hundred.
Completely misread that first sentence as single PRAYER system. Not sure that’d be the best solution for health insurance
See, there’s the thing. People always fear change. How many people feared all of the programs that we take for granted now? People get used to things. And eventually people won’t know what they did without that change.
Ok, moving to England. Crap, I’m gonna need a visa…Hmm…Keithy? You single? You wanna get married?
honestly why cant we go back to the simple system of ” if you cant afford the payment out of pocket, then screw you, you die!”
Yes and yes
Woohoo! I’m getting married and moving to England!
Viking Gal, I think that back door option is fvcking awesome, because I know women can get a lot of pressure from parents and/or the dad….nice to hear they’ve considered that and I wish every clinic did that.
And I’m totally with you on Griswold.
Yay! PK’s a lot cheaper than Match.com..
ps Don’t forget to bring the pies.
Well, I spent all the pies to get back some embarrassing photos, but I can always make more. Lots and lots of pies!
Can I be bridesmaid??? I’ll make the wedding cake if you like!!
Um, sure! *hands creature the most hideously godawful dress ever made* The bridesmaids will be wearing this.
I think you need to factor in the people who don’t have medicare, medicaid, or any other insurance, and just kite out on what they owe. I’m not sure of the proportion between, say, what Blue Cross pays for an appendectomy and what medicaid pays, but it seems like an issue that could be fairly negotiated. I do know both BC and medicaid pay less than half of what they bill the poor sucker with no insurance.
The hospitals that have closed that I know of closed because they were not profitable to run. They were running fine as not for profits, then were purchased by people who thought they could make money off them, ran them into the ground, then closed them.
BTW, Medicare rates are based on what insurance companies pay, which is often less than the cost of services. Insurance companies are the ones holding down prices to providers. But expecting a hospital to do more than break even is ridiculous.
Can we also go back to paying in chickens?
I actually have chickens so I can totally get on board with that payment option.
How do you know that every clinic doesn’t do that? My mom ran a clinic (well child, prenatal, birth control, etc) for 8 years. No doctors so no abortions, but ALL clinics that she had experience with had ways to slip women out. And, unfortunately, most required escorts to get women in to protect them against the ‘pro-lifers’ blocking the entrances. Sad part of it is, most of the women wanted contraception or prenatal care. So those ‘pro-lifers’ were endangering THOSE unborn babies.
In addition to the center where my student worked (which is not Planned Parenthood), I believe all of the Planned Parenthood clinics also have that backdoor option.
And one major part of the counseling session IS to get the woman away from anyone who might be pressuring her, so that she can think through what is best… The whole point of the PP organization is to support the woman or girl, period. (I used to go to a PP center for basic GYN care)
I can get you chickens. Myriad chickens. So many chickens that you’ll go mad trying to count them. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!!! *wipes spittle off mouth* Wait, what?
I don’t have any chickens…
Wait! What about stereo equipment? *husband will never notice*
I have no interest in stereo equipment, but if your husband has a playstation 3 or a Wii he won’t miss I’d be happy to trade you for some chickens.
Well, you’d have to take that up with the teenager. I think he might notice if the Wii left (although he hardly has time to play it with all the homework he has).
Let me know if he breaks his arm and needs medical attention any time soon, then he’ll be willing to exchange a Wii for a chicken to pay for the medical expenses.
Hah! I can see YOU don’t have a teenager!
Well, I’m hoping after a few days he’ll realize that you just can’t play Wii with a broken arm and make the trade.
Naw, he’d just use his other arm. Actually, he’s never broken anything. Except for the first ten weeks, he’s never really been sick at all.
Well sh!t. Anyone else willing to trade health insurance chickens for a Wii or PS3?
I believe this little tidbit about chickens was the most enjoyable read I’ve had all thread. Also, what about ducks?
I would love to know 100% truth on that myself. You get a huge variance on that, depending on which side of the isle you talk too. 1 murdered human for the sake of birth control is 1 too many.
VG, I totally respect your honest attitude about this issue. And I know there are people who are militant about it, and that’s not the answer either.
As far as the death of those embryos that fail to implant, it’s not something willingly done by the actions of another. Nature can be cruel, no matter if you are an embryo or an adult with an inoperable brain cancer. Or a gazelle with a limp.
I like what BT mentioned above. And it makes a great statement. Though I must say that other than protecting the life of the mother, I’m also against it. And other than protection, I see it as murder. But the worst offense is murder for the sake of birth control, and what I think is the most abhorrent. Yet it greatly consumes the vast majority of abortions performed.
And for those wondering about the difference between choosing the life of the mother over the baby, I say this. Doctors choose between 2 people in triage every day. It’s not pleasant. And something I would hope to never have to do.
Ok, nesting fail. BT’s comment is just below.
in the case of threatening the life of the mother.. you have to go with who has the greatest change of making it. its not a choice i ever want to have to make…but very rarely is it better to pick the child over the mother
Did he say what he was actually liberal about at any point? I asked once and forget to check back. I find the whole “pro murder” term to be extremely offensive.
Since when is pro life stance the property of conservatism? Even in the limits of political parties, the Libertarians also take a pro life stance.
Ooo, you mean like the horrid medicare that the Dems forced onto the poor, hapless seniors? And that now some of them apparently want the government to keep its hands off of?
You mean like feeding wild animals till they get dependent on you? And wind up worse because of it? Sooner or later, the bird seed runs out.
Then they attack.
Nuh uh! Not Government Bird Seed! That’s wrung fresh from the loins of the Rich.
What if the bird seed doesn’t run out? What if they manage to keep getting more bird seed?
BT – for #1 & #2 – It’s inhumane to add to the trauma of being raped and molested by forcing these women to carry the child of their rapist/molester to term. It’s cruel and horrible to do that to them. It’s like forcing them to relive the event and be reminded of it by the child. Just my thoughts, not trying to start an argument.
EEEEuw!
Yup, gonna have to agree with the “eeew” here. Normally I’d add something (I thought was) witty here, perhaps about it being wrung from everyone’s loins or some such, but the metaphor just gets more squicky…
now bitter troll sees your points loud and clear, but it still bothers bitter troll on a few levels. now rape is a horrid crime…rapists deserve no mercy or quarter. but the child it would bare is not a criminal. bitter troll can understand not wanting the poor woman to see a constant reminder. but the fetus was not a criminal. why does its life have to end ?…bitter troll is sorry if that sounds wrong, bitter troll has NEVER been in a position to really know what that feels like and never will. not trying to enforce my will or nutten, donno, just bothers him
Dang. Hel, I thought we were going to be smart like the Canadian and exit this conversation. It’s like a black hole.
Let’s move on to the important killing of the day: They got the cop shooter!! Time for beer and parties!
WHOOHOO !!! beer and nipples for everyone!
Beer on my nipples? Will that make them less achey?
*claps* Right on dude! *high fives*
What? Why are…oh, never mind. I probably don’t want to know. *goes to find more beer*
Babies BITE. That’s why
-drinks more bitter beer- YUMMY
Ah. Since my child did not believe in breast feeding, I cannot answer by personal experience, but my mother always said that a child old enough to bite is old enough to wean.
awwwwww want bitter troll to kiss it and make it better?
If you ask nicely I’m sure you can find someone around here willing to massage them for you. Hell, you don’t even have to ask nicely for that.
Rather than beer, how about rum for those nipples!
But hey, there are people in the world who find ways of enslaving other men. Guess that makes it right too. It’s even legal in some nations.
Yes, forcing women to carry babies to term is legal in some countries. Oh, you didn’t mean THAT kind of slavery?
last bitter troll checked, two males cant make a baby, even when related..
That’s not slavery. It’s compassion. It’s not killing a human being for someone’s convenience.
It’s not like there aren’t depraved women out there either.
compassion to one, cruel to the other, but one made a choice, the other did not.
Um, we were talking about RAPE here. Don’t see a CHOICE. Your beer is revoked.
It’s also not likely that the murder of the weakest will actually make the other forget it happened.
Life is cruel at times. Killing an innocent human doesn’t change that.
rape still? bitter troll thought tht was a lower thread..bitter troll assumed this was just plain abortion. bitter troll dont like abortion, wishs we lived in a world where it was not needed…but feels the woman should have the right to choose.
How do you know that?
Honestly, very easy things for men to say. I still remember one of my mom’s clients killing herself because she was pregnant from a rapist.
BT is forgiven for his mistake and beer is returned. Best way to stop abortions is to support programs that prevent unwanted pregnancies.
bitter troll is sorry to hear that
but does not sway how bitter troll feels. bitter troll feels sorry for anyone in that position.
but sarah palin said those programs where wrong! and she is really hawt so she must be right!
You mean a choice to kill the other, weaker human? Yes, they made choice.
By the way, get off your arrogant condescension. I do know what it’s like. My wife was raped, not once, but twice. One of my step children is the result, and is also a special needs child. And we love and treat the child just as we do the other 4.
No. Just because you and your wife can deal with such an event doesn’t mean other people can. And you are being condescending by saying they can and should.
Get off your high horse. It’s protecting a human life. Murdering an innocent child doesn’t change the fact. If they don’t want to raise the child, there is a great demand for babies to be adopted. You don’t have to kill the child.
This is absolutely a no-win argument. Period.
“Best way to stop abortions is to support programs that prevent unwanted pregnancies.” I read an article a year or so ago about how the number of abortions had slowly declined since it was legalized. The study went on to say that the reason for a large portion of the decline was the better availability of birth control and better education.
Thank you! And if it weren’t for moronic programs like abstinence only sex ed, the rate would have gone down even faster. Which, to me at least, is the goal. No unwanted pregnancies = no abortions.
I have no problem with avoiding unwanted pregnancies, none at all. But it’s still murder, and all the talk in the world can’t change that.
You know, I knew when I was a teenager that Rando was right (that this is a no win argument), yet I allow myself to be sucked into it. I do not apologize for my views, but JAC, this is obviously very personal and upsetting to you and I do apologize for adding to a discussion that upsets you so much.
I am going to go look at the plane in a tree (again).
I don’t think you’re giving people a whole lot of credit here. Just because we don’t agree with you doesn’t mean we don’t put a lot of thought into our positions.
I think it’s pretty obvious that you’re not sorry for being preachy at all since you keep doing it.
Rando, how is his preachy any different than yours?
I haven’t passed judgment on anyone. I have stated my position passionately and without mincing words. I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings or made your position feel inadequate. But no one on the pro-choice side wants to have an honest discussion about this. The reason is that the pro-choice position is untenable under scrutiny and you know it. I’m sorry if that sounds preachy, but I’m just being honest.
Please get past your ad hominem attacks and actually respond to some of the questions that are relevant to the discussion. This nit-picking and name-calling is getting old.
*sets out lawn chair, sits down, opens popcorn while watching the show*
ya! ever see the new version of ” black christmas”? its just like that…only the chick from buffy gets naked
There are, and no excuse for them either. But they usually abuse children, and therefor do not get pregnant.
No, Rando, you see what you think is your position; what they think is their beliefs. Obviously.
I like how you labeled someone so that you don’t have to respect their position.
Rando, I give people credit when they state their position honestly and respond to criticism. Some people have done that, like Diss. Other haven’t.
Carolinian is right…rather than talking about the issues, the pro-choicers have just been using ad hominem arguments. For instance, not one person has even tried to explain how a fetus isn’t a living human, which is the challenge I posed earlier.
Parks: People are allowed to disagree with you. They don’t always have to state their reasons why. Unless the person starts off calling you ignorant or a dumb a$$, or say you’re WRONG then sure they should back that up, however the Canuck simply stated I disagree, we won’t convince each other, let’s just let it drop. That’s pretty cordial to me.
Now we can always tell him how much better beer we make here in the states than they do in Canada. That and when was the last time a Candian Hockey team has won the Stanley Cup?
Hadn’t seen it. I’ll stick to looking at the Mrs naked. That’s a personal choice. And a pleasant one! Plus I KNOW I get to play with this one!
Actually, I never said I was liberal, but rather that there are issues that I agree with on the liberal side.
And I find murder for the sake of birth control to be extremely offensive.
Way to oversimplify things, conservative. Do you really think that ALL abortions are “murder for the sake of birth control”? Calling abortion “murder for the sake of birth control” is a conservative’s stance.
And no Rando. He won’t state what specific “Liberal” stances he has.
Well, I’m FOR the death penalty, but I still proudly proclaim myself a card carrying durty librul. Having ONE stance that is considered “conservative” doesn’t make me a conservative.
Funny, I wont state any specific issues, yet you name one right off the bat! You are on a witch hunt, looking to be nasty to me. And failing miserably.
Typo, make that *you say that I wont state*
Also ADM, I haven’t really said anything about the rape cases, until it was mentioned by others. And I most certainly have mercy for them.
The biggest issue I have is murder for the sake of birth control.
Oh, and Ivan. I have never called all abortions murder for the sake of birth control. Never. I actually went into details about saving the life of woman, and such.
The killing of an innocent for birth control, that’s murder. Even if the innocent was conceived in rape.
Sheesh, one touchy topic and the flames erupt; almost scary.
Right, back to playing Devil’s Avocate.
Justa: With the stance as “murder” firmly established, you clearly set value on the lives of said unborn children/fetuses (so hard to avoid loaded words here…). A simple question: why? What is the value that the fetus has based upon? Simply being human? Being alive? Potential? It’s an old question, and one I hope to find a good answer for. Also, on an entirely unrelated note, I rather like your hat.
BDITS: Same question, in reverse; what grants a right to abort, or on the other side, what renders null making it illegal? What value do you ascribe to the fetus, and by what method?
It’s a no win situation. Either the mother is tortured for life having to live with a physical product of the worst thing that ever happened to her, complete with half the slimeball’s DNA, or the child never gets a chance to exist. No matter what, it’s awful.
I like every thing you said, but one. The distinct difference about abortion is not philosophy or belief. But rather the taking of a life. And it’s not any different than homicide outside of the womb, other than motive.
Funny, conservatives get to call themselves “pro-life” and the pro choice crowd gets called “pro-murder”. We Pro-Choice folks try to give the courtesy of calling them “pro-life” or “anti-abortion”, but I think we should call them “anti-freedom”.
So you’re mad that a person calls you pro murder, but calling everyone you disagree with anti-freedom is somehow morally superior?
So you’re mad that a person calls you pro murder, but calling everyone you disagree with anti-freedom is somehow morally superior?
I LOVE Bitter Chef’s comment. Such a great step back to examine everything with a fair mind. *golf claps*
It’s a specific issue, and saying that everyone who is pro-choice is pro-murder is deliberately using emotive language to try moral blackmail rather than actually address the issues raised.
Was that to me?
If it was I’m not disagreeing with you that “pro murder” isn’t inflammatory, but you can’t cry foul and then turn around and do the same thing, and saying I’m tired of getting called names so you don’t believe in freedom certainly isn’t “better”
@adm: actually, we DON’T call pro-lifers “anti-freedom”. The point of my comment was that PLers like to get nasty and call us “pro-murder”, how would they like it if we started calling them “anti-freedom”. Way to try to twist the debate, dood!
The term “forced pregnancy” is just as bad. I’m not arguing abortion at this point. I”m arguing about playing the victim when everyone here has used inflammatory terms at some point. That’s not twisting the argument.
The term “forced pregnancy” is NOWHERE NEAR as bad as “pro-murder”.
MURRRRDERRRRR!!!!!!
See how that is a really REALLY bad word? And these nice christian types are applying it to me.
Let’s see here. You are in favor of the killing of a human being that couldn’t be more defenseless, or more needy. I think that qualifies as in the favor of murder.
And also, you make the statement that having one stance doesn’t make you one party or the other, yet yesterday you made the statement that by one stance I was. Make up your mind.
a pro-life stance needs to be pro-WHOLE-life, not just the 9-month-incubator period. Where are these people when kids need meals, or safe after-school care, or tutoring?
If you are busy living MY life, can I micro-manage YOURS?
wait… what kind of pickup truck do you drive?
Oh I see. Every time you stop a murder on the street, you now have to manage that persons’ life.
What an ignorant, self serving statement.
I didn’t say that “pro-murder” is a good way to say it in a rational discussion. I’m just really sick of everyone pretending their side is innocent.
If you really want to see what twisting an argument is look at eldritch there. That is what parks has been angry about. All the side stepping.
Well said, Chef, well said. That would about sum up my personal view as well.
A note: If we could quit squabbling over terms, and yes, that does indeed mean not using inflammatory terms on either side, more could be accomplished.
An afterthought: when life begins is up for debate, as is the status of the fetus, so technically, it is indeed a matter of philosophy and ethics. Both sides have a bad tendency to take their perspective as granted truth.
And, if you’re American, look at the results of the Prohibition era, and tell me that making something reasonally easily grown or manufactured illegal does anything other than attract criminals to it.
cant you just ask your pot dealer to pick you up some booze? or was he to ethical for that?
Not unethical, just forgetful. He goes into the convenience store, but instead of buying you beer, he buys himself Cheetos.
With your beer money.
And then the next time you see him, he’s got orange fingers and a slightly guilty expression.
And on a (much needed) lighter note, we had a power failure in the area while I was posting the above comment, and I re-typed it because I thought I had lost it all.
Well, at least I have a good memory !!!
It can. But it usually happens in situations of authority/subordinate.
You know, I’d almost managed to forget about the whole Mackenzie Phillips/John Phillips thing, and now I just want to puke again.
EEEuwww!
I know it’s a little late to chime in on this one, but so far I haven’t seen anyone make this point. Just because a woman carries a child to full term does not mean she has to raise it. She can sign the child over to the state as soon as it’s born. It’s still a sucky situation, but that is another option. And IMO, it’s better than having an abortion. But I’ve never been in that situation personally (and pray that I never will be), so take it for what’s it worth.
I did make that point. Several times. And yes, it is a horrible situation to be in.
Sorry for the reposting of it then.
*moving along to another LOL*
We’re all getting a little cranky. We should probably all move on to another LOL.
Oh no problem. I just wanted such a nice person as yourself to know that I had said that.
Not everyone shares your *belief* that all abortion is murder. I *believe* I have made myself clear, here.
Willful killing of a human = Murder. And labeling a statement as a belief to ignore it is the sign of a weak position.
so how about them local sports teams? eh? is bitter troll right? huh? bunch of bums they are, unless you live in a area with a good winning team, then yay team…
Not to mention the weather, bitter troll….it’s been very typical for this time of year in a way that’s neither terribly pleasant nor unexpected.
46 degrees, with flash flood warning style rain. And the Panthers and Bobcats stink.
VIVA Life!
ummmummm…so did anyone else see bruno?
Yeah, bitter troll, and this weather….oddly typical for this time of year, isn’t it?
Oh, and the Grizzlies stink, too.
Deja Moo Diss, Deja Moo.
While I have left a comment elsewhere dealing with the question, I must again compliment the dear troll for being able to lighten the mood when people get preachy. Go Troll!
And I’ll continue to think you’re being histrionic and trying to provoke people into an argument. Fair enough.
We have laws against murder, yet you can order a mafia hit. So I guess we have to make murder outside the womb legal too?
But does the mafia accept Paypal?
Yes. So long as you have verified your account.
I’m still chuckling at PM’s vision of a pro-life meeting — a Southern Baptist church social, no doubt, with loyalty tests at the door. “Are y’all for the death penalty? Are y’all for war? Then come on in!”
(Also, I don’t think he knows what “asymmetric warfare” actually means — that’s why he had to hedge with “civilian populations”. Although I like the implication that there’s a line — say, Yemen — above which war is Napoleonic and below which it’s Cheney-like.)
Yeah, it’s not like there aren’t people who are against abortion and aren’t religious at all. Or like myself, had the same thoughts on abortion before becoming religious.
bitter troll had thoughts of becoming religous but it was aborted
You mean by stealing it from the neighbors? After all, they have a bigger house.
If the options are making sure all the birds have bird seed by taking the neighbor’s seed or letting the birds all fend for themselves knowing that a bunch won’t find food, then I’ll take the former.
Maybe you shouldn’t be making birds dependent on you for food in the first place. You know, it gives you power over them. Enslaves them to your will.
It’s nice to think you are a better breed of a person when you are giving away the belongings of others.
Oooh, a fun metaphor, and one that can be backed up evolutionarily. Species do grow to depend on one another; quite a glorious thing when they share a mutualistic or commensal relationship. Less so parasitic, but symbiosis is symbiosis I suppose. At any rate, this does become problematic when it comes to extinction; there are species of tree in the world who’s seed carriers are all gone, which will die out with this generation (of trees; still a while to go). Similarly, if we kick the bucket, certain farm animals may well go the same way; turkeys without a doubt, and perhaps cows, depending. It’s still quite the interesting phenomena though; the Red Queen model for example, describing the relationship between parasite and host, each in a constant arms race to evade/infect the other, yet going over and over the same genetic ground, like a sign wave of evolution…marvelous.
I’m sure there’s a couple good metaphors here, depending on how one views certain systems.
*blinks* You are a very strange creature. *leaves out some enigmatic cheese for the esoteric mouse*
Why thank you, both for the compliment and the cheese – good choice of flavor, by the way. I much prefer strange to normal as a descriptor.
Actually I believe Justa did state that abortion was acceptable if and only if the mother’s life was at risk.
Hi Default User! I know, I did read through the posts a few times before I decided to reply.
I do actually agree with everything Justa said, except his use of the term ”pro-murder”. That’s why I addressed my post (x2!!) to his use of that term, and closed it by saying that the circumstances surroinding the abortion choice are not always straightforward.
Justa, I’m sorry for not mentioning that I mostly agreed with you! The news story I mentioned was very distressing, but unfortunately not uncommon. While I would never say that the decision to abort is ever ‘right’, there are cases where it is understandable.